Game News Internet DRAMA alert! JA3D RT vs TB

[EEVIAC]

The problem with a lot of sequels isn't a just a digression of play-styles and mechanics, but a fundamental lack of understanding about the core principles of the IP. If Rockstar announced that all future GTA titles would feature "super amazing turn-based action" with linear mission based gameplay, there's be a chorus of "get fucked"'s from their fanbase. Same deal with converting a turn-based RPG into an action game with ghoul magicians.

It also pisses me and a fair amount of others, that Bethesda is bascially screwing over the fans of the series who have been waiting 7 years for a proper sequel, i.e. isometric, turn-based combat, no fucking "gimmicks" (goggles, etc.).

The goggles worried me more than any of the other parts. I'm not sure Bethesda have ever done an iso game so its probably best they stick to 3D. Same with the turn based combat. I 've always seen the combat in FO as fast and bloody, kind of like a Western, and that could translate to RT ok. The goggles tells me that they haven't thought very hard about the setting. It makes me think ghoul and deathclaw hookers in panel vans more likely.

 

[Claw]

Ah, but that's because RT combat is inherently superior to TB, obviously. :wink:

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't get why people say that. The death of the series is better than it being made and the possibility of it being good? Or maybe if they screw it up it hurts their memories of Fallout? Boo-hoo, go play Fallout again (This isn't directed at you VD, if it was you who said that over there then nevermind this post, I don't feel like arguing about it).

People say that because:

a) there is a growing number of good franchises/games that were killed by "innovative" sequels.
b) I don't think there ever was a good game made that way - less efforts, attempts to cash in on the name, lack of understanding of the original setting, etc

So, the odds say that such a game will most likely kill the franchise, while if they leave it the fuck alone, then maybe someone else will do a decent game later. Especially since such a game is already planned.

Now, to be honest, it's great that Beth is making a PA game. The question is " did they have to slap the Fallout logo on top?" Same goes to the JA3D developers - you want to make a tactical RT game as good as JA2? God fucking bless you, just don't try to pass it AS a jagged alliance game.

 

[Sol Invictus]

In review of that idiotic thread I've decided to make a 'true sequel to the Doom series' that doesn't, in any way, involve shooting. In fact, my sequel to Doom will involve a series of jumping puzzles and will play very much like Mario 64, except with demons from hell and space ships. After all, Doom's combat system doesn't define Doom - it's the spirit that counts. The spirit of Doom.

Now, to be honest, it's great that Beth is making a PA game. The question is " did they have to slap the Fallout logo on top?" Same goes to the JA3D developers - you want to make a tactical RT game as good as JA2? God fucking bless you, just don't try to pass it AS a jagged alliance game.

Personally, I don't mind if Bethesda makes a real time 3rd person RPG and retains SPECIAL (but in a meaningful way, not a useless FOBOS-like way) because the turn-based combat in Fallout was never that special, as it didn't have the tactical complexity of X-Com or Jagged Alliance 2. However, as a sequel it should be true to the series, and not seem like a FOT-like spinoff.

That said, it's totally different with Jagged Alliance 2. The core game of JA2 wasn't its "setting" or the fact that it had a bunch of funny mercenaries teamed up to save Arulco from an evil dictator. The whole point of that cheesy B-movie 80s getup was to provide a setting for a turn-based tactical game, not the other way around. So if you take the turn-based out of Jagged Alliance, it's not Jagged Alliance anymore. After all, there's a ton of real time tactical games with a similar 'setting' so it's rather hard to call your game a 'sequel to JA' if you're not going to take its core feature. It'd be like taking the post-apocalyptic world out of Fallout, basically.

 

[Grifman]

:shock: Are you people saying that Talonsoft isnt making JA3?

Talonsoft never made JA2, they were just a publisher.

 

[Balor]

The whole point of that cheesy B-movie 80s getup was to provide a setting for a turn-based tactical game, not the other way around.

You are forgetting that the cheesy plot was very funny and rather immersive nonetheless, great strategical part of the game (capture and control towns, train militia, etc) and it's free-form gameplay, superb RPG elements, great stealth, lots of recognizable, rather realistic weapons with a lot of statistics, great music, voices, very good (for those days) graphics and, especially, animation, etc, etc.
TB did play it's part... But about as much as for Fallout, I'm sure of that. Of course, if it had twitchy RT combat - it would be worse, I agree. But not by much... and if it would be at least RTwP, it will be only a few 'percent' worse. Of course, it's all IMHO. But your point is not any more factual then mine... and I think even less.
C'mon, point out a game that had all the features of JA2, only w/o TB... but failed miserably? I doubt that you will be able to find one - there is simply no such a game up to date.
For instance, take it’s expansion pack... How many of you consider it on par with original Ja2? Not me, that’s for sure. And it had same TB system.
All in all, not only TB or RT make a game great or shit.
Think PoR2 - was it PoS or not, huh? And I betcha there are a lot of RT games that you found fun to play.
It all depends on many, many factors. And you mindlessly keep bashing on one point - combat system mechanics... Does it mean that all you need is combat? That you are not interested in storyline, quests, how detailed and immersive the setting is, is it freeform, etc, etc?
Even the best implementation of TB will not make a game that is PoS in all other respects a candy. Same goes for RT or RTwP game, of course.
I, myself, don’t really care if it will be TB or RTwP. I KNOW that both, if done right, can be fun to play and provide great control over the battlefield. And I doubt that they will go for full RT, heh - only thing that I fear.
On the other hand, I do care about (see list of Ja2 features above, + bugfree, balanced, etc). And I really doubt that they will be able to deliver those.

 

[Jinxed]

Yeah, I agree that the core of JA2 was not the TB system, although it was a great part of it. With that said, I remeber that I played a lot of Aftermath when it came out and initially told people it was a great game. However, after a few days playing it, I got so bored with the real time combat system that I switched it off, never to play it again.

My point is that you can create a gameworld that plays very much like the previous games and initially the game will be cool, but the combat is a major part of it and if you fuck that up it's going to start bothering a gamer sooner or later, depending on how enjoyable and faithful the gameworld part is. I recall that there was a lot of whining on the official forums about the fact that Aftermath is realtime. I remember the answer to the whining was somewhere among the lines of "we are too far into development to change the system now". In light of all that the announcement of the next UFO game had a statement about making it realtime again because that's what the fans want.

JA3D and JA3 will still be much different from JA2... I'm not sure anyone has the ability to program a system that allows you to change the maps in all sorts of ways, like destroying walls or such without making savegames weight in gigs. The same problem was present in Silent Storm.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Decado's fighting a good fight, and things have reached the name calling phase. So, if someone wants to give him a hand and enlighten MiST developers and fanbase, now is the time.

2Decado: man, i am not a Misland funboy, but you are totally stupid if you belive in "changing things under the publisher's nose". How old are you? 15? You belive that publisher wasnt involved? What alse do you belive in? Aliens? So think before posting something and dont show your stupidity to everyone.

Speak for yourself, moron. SFi was completely shocked and unaware that the game JA3D had gone RT. They had being saying, since the game was announced, that JA3D was going to be TBed. In case you haven't figured it out: SFi is based in Canada, and MistLand in Russia. SFi doesn't exactly have their thumb on the developer.

So I'm going to shoot your works right back to you: So think before posting something and dont show your stupidity to everyone. And double it for calling someone else stupid when you're the idiot.

FLAME WAR!!!!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

In review of that idiotic thread I've decided to make a 'true sequel to the Doom series' that doesn't, in any way, involve shooting. In fact, my sequel to Doom will involve a series of jumping puzzles and will play very much like Mario 64, except with demons from hell and space ships. After all, Doom's combat system doesn't define Doom - it's the spirit that counts. The spirit of Doom.

That about sums up my impression of what the developers are saying. Much of the spirit of Jagged Alliance is in the combat system because that's what the game revolves around. Even the plot revolves around combat and thus the combat system.

The whole argument that they wanted to make it real time with pause to be innovative is bullshit. There's nothing innovative about real time with pause, nor is there anything innovative about making the game turn based. To sit back and make the claim that because the previous games are turn based and you want to make it real time with pause because you're being innovative is absolutely ludicrious considering the sheer amount of games that use real time with pause these days. Frankly, innovation shouldn't even be used in this discussion. It's a red herring.

However, when you have a franchise, it's best to stick with the roots of the franchise. I'm beating a broken drum here, but attempting to grab new market share at the expense of the old market is something only the gaming industry likes to try and repeatedly fails at doing.

 

[Jinxed]

I talked to a couple of people who don't hold a great deal of interest in games but play them somewhat. Their attitude was much different. To them, changing to realtime would actually "refresh" the series. I believe that this attitude comes from people who don't really give much thought to the games they play. They don't care about the developers or any other inside information about the games.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

"Refreshing series", that's a good one.

 

[LlamaGod]

If anyone thinks real-time Jagged Alliance is a good idea they need to throw themselves off a bridge already/

 

[Vault Dweller]

News from the forums:

Well, it's not the first time a dumb-ass developer thinks that he can improve a good game/series without understanding of the original game(s):

Don't forget - it is ALWAYS a matter of TASTE

XCOM3

It was made by Gallop's - and it was a great game... no... it IS a great game - i'm playing it right now

XCOM: Interceptor

So - you don't like space combat simulators? is it the MAIN reason?

XCOM: Enforcer

So - you don't like arcade shooters too...

MOO3

Even MOO2 sucked - i still play MOO1

HOMM4

Agreed - but it was made by the same developer

Fallout: Tactics

I take it as you don't like tactics? I understand that it wasn't a Fallout 3, but it isn't called Fallout 3 anyway... You think that Fallout should be strictly RPG? Then tell Lucas - that SW should be strictly a FILM, and not games of various genres

Fallout: BOS

Console shooter? didn't played...

and now JA3D

Yes

Looks like MiST has just joined a very elite multi-national club. Congrats!

Well, it looks like this is important to you - so - thanx!

No, it will suck because realtime with pause sucks.

I think it should be "will suck in JA" instead of "sucks". If you don't like RT with Pause - that doesn't mean that it sucks - you just don't like it... matter of taste

On forums which use the English language, people like you are called "morons".

well, "moron" is not exactly the same as "pravdorub" - it is a "TRUTH SPITTER" in english - direct translation, though the real meaning is more wider so one can be proud to be called so - if he wishes to - that is

AND the question from me:
Do you want the new JA game or not?

Possible answers:

1. Yes
2. No

Suggested course of action depending on your answer:

1. STFU and be more constructive
2. Get the hell out of here

Choose wisely and take no offence - it is a REaction
I hope you are wise ones not the "morons" - as you call idiots on english forums

Join the party!

 

[bryce777]

The whole point of that cheesy B-movie 80s getup was to provide a setting for a turn-based tactical game, not the other way around.

You are forgetting that the cheesy plot was very funny and rather immersive nonetheless, great strategical part of the game (capture and control towns, train militia, etc) and it's free-form gameplay, superb RPG elements, great stealth, lots of recognizable, rather realistic weapons with a lot of statistics, great music, voices, very good (for those days) graphics and, especially, animation, etc, etc.
TB did play it's part... But about as much as for Fallout, I'm sure of that. Of course, if it had twitchy RT combat - it would be worse, I agree. But not by much... and if it would be at least RTwP, it will be only a few 'percent' worse. Of course, it's all IMHO. But your point is not any more factual then mine... and I think even less.
C'mon, point out a game that had all the features of JA2, only w/o TB... but failed miserably? I doubt that you will be able to find one - there is simply no such a game up to date.
For instance, take it’s expansion pack... How many of you consider it on par with original Ja2? Not me, that’s for sure. And it had same TB system.
All in all, not only TB or RT make a game great or shit.
Think PoR2 - was it PoS or not, huh? And I betcha there are a lot of RT games that you found fun to play.
It all depends on many, many factors. And you mindlessly keep bashing on one point - combat system mechanics... Does it mean that all you need is combat? That you are not interested in storyline, quests, how detailed and immersive the setting is, is it freeform, etc, etc?
Even the best implementation of TB will not make a game that is PoS in all other respects a candy. Same goes for RT or RTwP game, of course.
I, myself, don’t really care if it will be TB or RTwP. I KNOW that both, if done right, can be fun to play and provide great control over the battlefield. And I doubt that they will go for full RT, heh - only thing that I fear.
On the other hand, I do care about (see list of Ja2 features above, + bugfree, balanced, etc). And I really doubt that they will be able to deliver those.

You are obviously insane.

First the graphics and production values in JA were pretty low, and only came together because they managed to be cheesy and amusing.

Second, can you name a game with those elements that is RT and succeeded? Your question is ludicrous and pointless. No such game has been made, good or bad.

The complex combat system was the best feature of the JA games, what it really truly did right, and without it a sequel would be nothing like the original. It might succeed financially due to there being lots of nitwits who will rush to buy it due to the hype and the name, but it will still be garbage and not something a typical fan of the series would like.

As for the imagined good points of the sequel, what are they, pray tell? It is obvious the makers of this game are complete morons who have never made a good game before, and nothing they have said gives us reason to think they ever possibly would. We will no doubt be seeing none of the good aspects of the JA series in this supposed sequel.

So, just give up already - you are being quite senseless.

 

[Jinxed]

bryce, I think he had a point though. The combat system wasn't the entire reason I played JA2 a gazillion times. An example would be Silent Storm. That game has a system which is even better in some aspects than JA2. But I did not replay it more than twice because it lacked the personality, the gameworld and the possibilities that JA2 had. There was a shitload of things more in JA2 to do other than just shoot people. That's what kept me playing. I discovered more things, new possibilities.

 

[kris]

Now, to be honest, it's great that Beth is making a PA game. The question is " did they have to slap the Fallout logo on top?" Same goes to the JA3D developers - you want to make a tactical RT game as good as JA2? God fucking bless you, just don't try to pass it AS a jagged alliance game.

Here is IMO the most valid point and consideration. They just want to ride the popularity of someone else game or in some cases the producers of the original tought they could. The point is that people that liked a game liked it because of what it was, not because of the name it had or whatever the francise was called.

 

[bobik]

Good day, guys!

I want to give you REAL picture of situation in Russia, because I`m in a pretty bad mood of all these «Go home, Russian Bears!» posts.

MiST-Land are liars and very bad developers. Here in Russia they have very cool style of forum posting – when you say they are wrong, they answer that you can fuck yourself and they know what to do. So you shouldn’t explore only their official forum – it is full of teenage fan-boys.

MiST-Land can do nothing but PR. All their projects have small strong communities of fans, but 90% of sites, magazines and users think that they are at least “worse than average”. Their last project, ALFA Antiterror had good mark only in one magazine – but if you see on box of the game you can find their logo – it explains everything, yeah? On their site they speak about themselves as “leaders in tactical genre”. Lie. Lie. Lie.

V. Shutov (“napalm”) said that “ABSOLUTE majority of people who played demo on KRI were very satisfied”. Lie. I played it. This demo was UGLY. Poor gfx, fucking realtime... Every person that I know who played it have such opinion. It was very poor B-class linear real-rime “tactics”…

When we asked “What the fuck?” they tried to evade with all these “We do not remember any successful TB game in last years” and “We want to attract new players”. Then magazine I noticed before published very optimistic preview. I posted my experience with demo and pieces of preview on www.ag.ru forums and it was noticed here on Codex. Then you joined our resistance. Salute, brothers in arms!

Most interesting was that publisher was surprised of developer’s activities. Then, as I think, publisher fucked developer into their tight ass and – what a surprise – game becomes turn-based!

Now they say it will be not linear, but not long before we heard about “Commandos”-like gameplay and a lot of scripts. Another lie? Yes. It’s wonderful – what may do publisher dildo into developer’s ass – now they try to explain us that black is white and white is black, that they never said something about linear game!

They lied to us and to publisher! Cool! Now they say “Bad, ugly capitalists!” that means – if we will do a piece of shit our hands will be clean. Liars. They have lost nothing – all their current stuff will be renamed into “African Alliance”, so they will have 3 (!) games into the universe – TB and RT versions of JA 3D and “remake of JA2” – JA 3. Most wonderful is that one of listed feature is that there will not be… Deidrana and Elliot! Cool remake, but who is the enemy? Bugs?

Sorry for style of my post, and may be I have forgot something, but I am quite shocked, so forgive me… If you want know something – you are free to ask, of course.

PS: If you want to have REAL JA 3 – see “Brigade E5: New Jagged Union”. It is russian too, but it`s developers are Shaun Lyng and yurg – if their names mean something for you. It is realtime too – but (1) it is separate game, not in JA universe, so it is not critical and (2) it has “smart pause” system and good organization of actions – you see average time you need to do action before you actually do it – pretty good idea for tactical game about professional mercs. And it is in open online beta-testing, so I think it will nor be so buggy as MiST-Land shit. Russian can make normal tactics – see Silent Storm – not genius-like, but eye-candy game with good physics.

PPS: Do not buy JA 3D, African Alliance and JA 3 from MiST-Land. Let`s punish them with $$$!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

yurg

Yurg? Yurg of the Russian tactical gaming fansite Freelancer? That Yurg? Holy shit!

Kreegle's going to have a damned stroke when he hears that.

 

[bobik]

Yes. :D
Or it is not good? At least, he took part into localization of JA 2 and UB into russian and some good mods. And his site now is part of most serious russian gaming sites - Absolute Games.
And if you dislike him, remember about Shaun Lyng :D
So real JA 3 will be done by veteran developer and veteran fan. Isn`t it cool?

 

[space captain]

See??? Even the russians know MISTland is a PEICE OF SHIT. (see my previous post on page 1)

Only complete fucking retards would think MISTland represents all of Russia. Sadly, the codex is frequented by many species of retard.

 

[bobik]

I think we know it MUCH better then you, friend. We see ALL their dirty PR and suffer from their style of forum posting. They think they are genius-like... Fucking bastards! Good example of their logic - they said "Veteran counter-terrorists said that they couldn`t remember any usage of melee weapons in real operations". Maybe. But what the fuck is doing soldier with a knife on box of their ALFA Antiterror?!
Another example - some russian jokers named their game BETA Antiterror (ALFA means ALPHA, MiST-Land just have problems with spelling, I think). This name (BETA) is very clear to truth, because it`s so buggy that players became unpayed beta-testers and only with 3-rd patch game became really playable.

 

[LlamaGod]

Russia has Nival so it aint too bad.

I liked Cops 2170, but Paradise Cracked was total turds.

and seriously, he fucking liked Fallout:Tactics. Liking it because people dont like it because "its not an RPG' is retarded. I like how everyone has some idea for why Fallout fans dont like the stupid spin-offs "its not Fallout 3", "its not an RPG". No, they arnt fucking good games.

Anyways, he has a pretty bad defense for people bringing up retarded sequels and his taste in games blows.

Probably a NWN fan.

 

[bobik]

Not very long time ago Nival was sold to some US company. But owner of this company is... russian dirty capitalist, heh. World is small. And Nival now will produce mostly games for mobile platforms.

Cops 2170 was, maybe, best of MiST-Land games. If I can use word "best" when I speak about this team. And Paradise was they first game. The game, that became playable only after fan (!) patch from CRPG.RU

 

[LlamaGod]

Nival is still finsihing up HOMM5 and that Night Watch RPG or whatever first, I think. Those will probably be their last games before MOBILE PHONE AND CONSOLE TIEM.

I was hoping for a Silent Storm 2, nuts

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yes. :D
Or it is not good? At least, he took part into localization of JA 2 and UB into russian and some good mods. And his site now is part of most serious russian gaming sites - Absolute Games.
And if you dislike him, remember about Shaun Lyng :D
So real JA 3 will be done by veteran developer and veteran fan. Isn`t it cool?

I never had a problem with Yurg, but Kreegle absolutely hated him.