Game News Internet DRAMA alert! JA3D RT vs TB

[Claw]

I find this whole debate about the "spirit" of a game very confusing, and when I say confusing I mean stupid.

It is like taking one core element of a dish, completely change the rest and claim you maintained the "spirit" of the original. You would have to be very dumb - or possess an exceptional lack of taste - to not see why that is a ridiculous idea.

Of course it's entirely possible to create something good in this fashion, but that has little to do with the question whether someone who liked the original dish will like it or if it deserves to bear the same name.
And obviously, the better the original, the more likely your result will be disappointing in comparison. The more you change, the more likely is a change for the worse.

 

[bobik]

Nival is still finsihing up HOMM5 and that Night Watch RPG or whatever first, I think. Those will probably be their last games before MOBILE PHONE AND CONSOLE TIEM.

I was hoping for a Silent Storm 2, nuts

Yes, of course. They will finish them. And let`s wait "Sickle and Hammer" (m-m-m... rarther bad translation, and I even don`t know that it will be published outside Russia, but it is fan mod to Silent Storm that became offical RPG game on it`s engine - about brave soviet spy into american part of occupied Germany in 50-th. Bu-ha-ha, evil Russian!). Here in Russia it is published, but I still haven`t seen it in shops.

Kreegle absolutely hated him.

Maybe. But let`s leave it behind them - i don`t know about it at all. As for me - he is good moderator and fan. And he is rather bright. Shit, he likes Doom 3 and dislikes Half-Life 2. Dirty bastard. :twisted: At least it is best we have. And don`t forget about Shaun Lyng. You can say it to Kreegle too.

 

[Balor]

Well, there are threads both about E5 (I PRed it here quite heavily ) and H&S. I hope I'll be able to get H&S tommorrow.. everybody who played it say it's great... if hard settings is REALLY hard. Now, if that's the worst thing they saw, the game must be simply perfect.

 

[Deacdo]

Decado's fighting a good fight, and things have reached the name calling phase. So, if someone wants to give him a hand and enlighten MiST developers and fanbase, now is the time.

LOL! Thanks for the vote of confidence. Anyway, I just posted there to vent (though I stand by what I said) and only responded because the guy was blaming me for something he was blatently wrong about. I don't really want to be a troll, so I doubt I'll go back for any seroius flamin'

 

[Sol Invictus]

I don't think Nival is going to become mobile phone exclusive. It's in their plans, but I think it involves creating a special division for mobile games. According to the producer it's not going to impact their PC games.

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

I don't get why people say that. The death of the series is better than it being made and the possibility of it being good? Or maybe if they screw it up it hurts their memories of Fallout? Boo-hoo, go play Fallout again (This isn't directed at you VD, if it was you who said that over there then nevermind this post, I don't feel like arguing about it).

People say that because:

a) there is a growing number of good franchises/games that were killed by "innovative" sequels.
b) I don't think there ever was a good game made that way - less efforts, attempts to cash in on the name, lack of understanding of the original setting, etc

So, the odds say that such a game will most likely kill the franchise, while if they leave it the fuck alone, then maybe someone else will do a decent game later. Especially since such a game is already planned.

Now, to be honest, it's great that Beth is making a PA game. The question is " did they have to slap the Fallout logo on top?

That's fine, but that's not what I was asking. To clarify: I asked why people think "the series would be better off dead (dead, as in death, as in gone for good, and as in never coming back) than Bethesda having it." rather than, bethesda having it and the possibility of it being good as nothing is set in stone as far as anyone knows (barring people who are working on it and psychics). It could be the worst game in existence, or it could give justice to the Fallout name.

I don't get why people say that. The death of the series is better than it being made and the possibility of it being good? Or maybe if they screw it up it hurts their memories of Fallout? Boo-hoo, go play Fallout again (This isn't directed at you VD, if it was you who said that over there then nevermind this post, I don't feel like arguing about it).

It was me who said it, and the reason should be bloody obvious by now.

Perhaps you could enlighten this ignorant soul as to why it's so obvious (that the series would be better of dead at this point in time, rather than it being made and the possibility of it being good)?

Because, yeah it's fun to go back and play FO for the umpteenth time, but we want something new . We want to see what happens to the WL over time, how technologies evolves, the scars you left on the world and such.

Again, if the series is better off dead, you would get nothing new, not even the possibility of it being good or shite. That's the only reason why I questioned the phrase.

As for the reasons of thinking it will be shit no matter what, I understand them (even though in my opinion I think some of them are overdramatic -note, not necessarily the reasons in this thread, or even at the codex-).

Personally, I'm going to wait until I play Oblivion before I change my stance on the subject in any direction from neutral. From some of the things they're talking about with Oblivion (working on more multiple paths to complete quests, better dialogue, and the AI system that could breathe some needed life into the barren and empty world and NPCs -along with better dialogue of course-), if alot of it is implemented well, it could make them seem more capable in my eyes. Though Oblivion would retain some things I know alot of people here loathe, such as real time combat and first/third person view (though I wouldn't mind the real-time combat if it was implimented well, which morrowind's wasn't in any stretch of imagination -well, maybe alot :D-) .

Though even after I've played Oblivion I don't think my stance on the subject will change too much. That's for when some actual concrete information comes, or a screenshot, or whatever.

Disclaimer: I apologize in advance if any of that seemed to condescend any of your opinions or anything that any you said. I just wanted to clarify what I meant in my previous post and state my own opinion about the matter, not to butt heads or argue.

 

[bryce777]

Well, the series will never die until it is actually KILLED, which bethesda is almost guaranteed to do. At best they will use it to make a new franchise not much like the old one that appeals to different fans and just retains some of the cool artwork and backstory, but my guess is they will well and truly destroy it. Neither option does fans of the original any good.

EVENTUALLY fallout woud be made in some form, if bethesda did not make it. Bethesda is about the worst group I could think of to do it, so I would rather they had not gotten it. If somehow a publisher had bought it to have troika develop it with a high budget I would be stoked, but I can't think of any software company that now exists that would probably do a good job so I would rather the name just rot a while....

 

[obediah]

Bethesda is about the worst group I could think of to do it...

Oh cut the drama. I can think of a dozen development groups from Russia alone that are worse on absolute terms. Bethesda is firmly in the middle of the pack before you even start using subjective criteria. I don't even know if Troika would have been a better choice - right after Arcanum definitely, but their games were going in the wrong direction quickly. I'd certainly be more interested in Falloutorrowind than Fallout:ToEE, or Fallout: Bloodlines - but that's subjective.

In my dreams, the RPG Justice League would have broken down Interplays doors and ripped the Fallout IP through Herve's ass before taking it to their secret lair to assemble a crack coder team to churn out fallout sequels until my death. In reality, I'm not sure how much better it could have neded. There aren't many proven development groups that excite me (are their any even?), and when you think about who else has the money that Interplay wanted (Fallout Madden 2006 anyone?), Bethesda doesn't look all that bad.

 

[bryce777]

Bethesda is about the worst group I could think of to do it...

Oh cut the drama. I can think of a dozen development groups from Russia alone that are worse on absolute terms. Bethesda is firmly in the middle of the pack before you even start using subjective criteria. I don't even know if Troika would have been a better choice - right after Arcanum definitely, but their games were going in the wrong direction quickly. I'd certainly be more interested in Falloutorrowind than Fallout:ToEE, or Fallout: Bloodlines - but that's subjective.

In my dreams, the RPG Justice League would have broken down Interplays doors and ripped the Fallout IP through Herve's ass before taking it to their secret lair to assemble a crack coder team to churn out fallout sequels until my death. In reality, I'm not sure how much better it could have neded. There aren't many proven development groups that excite me (are their any even?), and when you think about who else has the money that Interplay wanted (Fallout Madden 2006 anyone?), Bethesda doesn't look all that bad.

Well, I should qualify that as the worst I can think of that have made a game I would have heard of without coming here...some of the developers mentioned in these forums are maybe 1/16th of a step above a one man independent shop.

I think that the failings that troika had were basically budgetary in nature. They had the raw talent to get things done, but they were spread too thin. You would not even need great coders for a great fallout game, just a good story and design that stayed pretty close to the originals in terms of game mechanics with perhaps a bit better AI for teammates or a tad more control.

As for who WOULD be good now, I am at a loss. Troika with money is the best thing I could imagine.

 

[obediah]

I think that the failings that troika had were basically budgetary in nature. They had the raw talent to get things done, but they were spread too thin. You would not even need great coders for a great fallout game, just a good story and design that stayed pretty close to the originals in terms of game mechanics with perhaps a bit better AI for teammates or a tad more control.

I'm inclined to think Troika's problems were with project management more than budget. Given a bigger budget, they would have had a bigger game, but it wouldn't have been any closer to done at release time than their other games. IMHO, what they needed was someone to manage the project workflow, and to reign in ambitiions and optimism, or a publisher that babied them and set a deadline knowing that devel time would need to run over 50% at least.

I for one, want good coders, or at least solid code for any game. As my free time dwindles further and further below 0, bugs and crappy interfaces kill games for me faster than anything.

As for who WOULD be good now, I am at a loss. Troika with money is the best thing I could imagine.[/quote]

 

[bobik]

Hey. guys!
Isn`t it HUGE offtop, eh?
Stay tuned - MiST-Land will kill JA. In turn-based or real-time way. Or in both. It is "smelling like shit" company. DO NOT WANT ANYTHING FROM JA 3D! This game universe was killed when Sir-Tech Cananda died...

 

[bryce777]

I think that the failings that troika had were basically budgetary in nature. They had the raw talent to get things done, but they were spread too thin. You would not even need great coders for a great fallout game, just a good story and design that stayed pretty close to the originals in terms of game mechanics with perhaps a bit better AI for teammates or a tad more control.

I'm inclined to think Troika's problems were with project management more than budget. Given a bigger budget, they would have had a bigger game, but it wouldn't have been any closer to done at release time than their other games. IMHO, what they needed was someone to manage the project workflow, and to reign in ambitiions and optimism, or a publisher that babied them and set a deadline knowing that devel time would need to run over 50% at least.

I for one, want good coders, or at least solid code for any game. As my free time dwindles further and further below 0, bugs and crappy interfaces kill games for me faster than anything.

As for who WOULD be good now, I am at a loss. Troika with money is the best thing I could imagine.

[/quote]

Well, for an rpg they dont need to be crazily smart, just have a grasp of how to program in a nonretarded way ie grok OOP and actually unit test code.

There may be something to the management issue, but I think if they had scaled back ambitions for toee it would have sucked even more...it was hardly enough game as it was.

 

[bobik]

Are there any moderators? Or here in "enlighten West" people don`t know about meaning of the word "offtopic"?

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

Are there any moderators? Or here in "enlighten West" people don`t know about meaning of the word "offtopic"?

From reading the codex for three years or so, I've never to my memory (though my memory is shit) seen mods delete posts because of them being off-topic (though I think Exitium might have went on a rampage and deleted a bunch of posts before). The only things I've seen them do is edit posts with things like tubgirl or goatse and put the "dumbfuck" title on select people.

And really, that's one of the reasons why the codex is such a nice place and why I like it so much (especially when compared to places where you can't even speak your own mind like penny-arcade if it's not the popular opinion in the thread, they put you in their forum jail -internet time out- ).

 

[bryce777]

Are there any moderators? Or here in "enlighten West" people don`t know about meaning of the word "offtopic"?

What is off topic?? The topic is internet drama ffs.

 

[space captain]

no, in the "elighten west" we just like to piss off russian dick heads

 

[Sol Invictus]

Well, the series will never die until it is actually KILLED,

That's some really ingenious logic. Hmm, I wonder what would happen if Bethesda decided to simply sit on the licence.

Oh cut the drama. I can think of a dozen development groups from Russia alone that are worse on absolute terms. Bethesda is firmly in the middle of the pack before you even start using subjective criteria. I don't even know if Troika would have been a better choice - right after Arcanum definitely, but their games were going in the wrong direction quickly. I'd certainly be more interested in Falloutorrowind than Fallout:ToEE, or Fallout: Bloodlines - but that's subjective.

Agreed. Bethesda's way up there in terms of 'quality', especially in comparison to any Russian development house (save for Nival) and whoever else Interplay could have sold the licence to, for instance Silver Style. Troika wouldn't have been my choice either given that they were planning to make a real time with pause Fallout. It's rather amusing how everyone's so quick to jerk companies like BioWare and Bethesda around when it comes to real time, or real time with pause, but if Troika does something like making a first person action RPG (oh yeah, that was Bloodlines), people are rather quick to forgive them. I'd absolutely prefer to see a fully real time 3rd person "Oblivion-esque" Fallout 3 than an RT+P Fallout 3, if SPECIAL is to be used. It's entirely possible to convert SPECIAL into real time provided you ditch the AP and replace it with speed, but an RT+P system would completely botch the combat and turn it into something like Fallout Tactics.

 

[bryce777]

I didn't realize troika was going to do that. If so, fuck them, too.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

It's rather amusing how everyone's so quick to jerk companies like BioWare and Bethesda around when it comes to real time, or real time with pause, but if Troika does something like making a first person action RPG (oh yeah, that was Bloodlines), people are rather quick to forgive them.

Because we all know everyone absolutely loved Bloodlines.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I didn't realize troika was going to do that. If so, fuck them, too.

Yeah, they were. About the time when they lost bid for the Fallout licence to Bethesda, Leon mentioned how their new Fallout game would have been RT+P to keep up-to-date with current gaming trends or some similar horseshit.

I can buy BioWare trying to improve on the RT+P system, since they did pioneer it, but given Troika's horrible attempt at an FPS, I doubt they would have managed a proper system. Since it's quite obvious that none of them were versed or experienced with developing a real time with pause system. After all I doubt they would have managed to reach the 'complexity' of NWN's real time with pause system given their monetary constraints, lack of QA and poor project management. I think NWN sucked for many reasons but the combat was definitely a step up from Baldur's Gate.

 

[Jinxed]

It's rather amusing how everyone's so quick to jerk companies like BioWare and Bethesda around when it comes to real time, or real time with pause, but if Troika does something like making a first person action RPG (oh yeah, that was Bloodlines), people are rather quick to forgive them.

Come on man, you're smarter than this. It's not about forgiving, as if real time was a sin. The sin only begins with crappy real time, like the Infinity Engine. Bloodlines was a project much different from things we would expect from Troika, yes. But The way real time functioned in Bloodlines was better than say Morrowind, it felt more fleshed out, like it actually worked. (I'm talking about ranged weapons)

Let me tell you, I did not mind the Infinity Engine when I played BG or even in BG 2, but the lack of any type of progress through years is what's crappy about it. ToEE's dev cycle was short, Bloodlines' wasn't long either and both games exhibit more elaborate systems.

One of my favourite games of all time was real time, System Shock 2. It's really about making things work and not saying they suck because of principle.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Well there's no reason to assume that Fallout 3's development under Troika would have been long, either. I doubt their would-be publisher would have given them much leeway now, seeing how their publisher would have only signed them if they managed to acquire the license, I'd say the leash they would have gotten was a very short one.

 

[Spazmo]

Bloodlines RT was okay because it was full-out RT, Vicky, instead of some bullshit half-measure attempt to please everyone like the Infinity Engine's RT with pause.

That said, while TB is generally superior for RPGs, RTwP is just something RPG gamers are going to have to put up with since it's not going away.

And Bloodlines' combat was waaaaay better than Morrowind's, so frankly, Bethesda could be taking lessons from Troika (or rather from the huge number of devs who've done third person melee combat well) on that count.

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

And Bloodlines' combat was waaaaay better than Morrowind's, so frankly, Bethesda could be taking lessons from Troika (or rather from the huge number of devs who've done third person melee combat well) on that count.

Indeed, though they might have improved on it with Oblivion. We'll see.

 

[Volourn]

"Bloodlines RT was okay because it was full-out RT"

Stupid fanboy. It was bad. Being better than MW's combat proves nothing. Nothing at all.


"instead of some bullshit half-measure attempt to please everyone like the Infinity Engine's RT with pause."

More idiocy. Infinity's combat system wa snot about pleasing 'everybody'. it is obvious that BIO prefers, overall, that particiular combat system so the only one they were trying to please is themselves.