Game News Internet DRAMA alert! JA3D RT vs TB

[Volourn]

"Or you could leave battles that pose no threat or challenge to the player out of the game entirely."

If you could honestly show me one game where there is NO easy battles; I'd believe you. Of course, this is an impossible task so you lose.


"Which battle and how much time does using RTwP save you in comparison?"

You jokin' right? Rats in FO, bugbears in TOEE, and orcs in POR2 would all have benefited from RT w/pause combat.

In the reverse, salughtering xvarts was fun in the Bgs eries because of how easy they were and how they just won't stop coming. That would have been boring in a tb combat game...

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

You jokin' right? Rats in FO, bugbears in TOEE, and orcs in POR2 would all have benefited from RT w/pause combat.

Uh, Fallout would have benefited from areas with less weak enemies. The perfect example were the Broken Hills mines with all those ants. Blame it on the area design, not turnbased.

In the reverse, salughtering xvarts was fun in the Bgs eries because of how easy they were and how they just won't stop coming. That would have been boring in a tb combat game...

Considering in BG you had to search around the map for them to come at you (this was visible in the Xvart encampment) my guess it would be boring either way.

 

[Volourn]

"Uh, Fallout would have benefited from areas with less weak enemies. The perfect example were the Broken Hills mines with all those ants. Blame it on the area design, not turnbased."

Again, not one game is devoid of easy enemies. To say it's 'poor design' is a cop out. Period. It's the nature of the beast that there will be easy combat.


"Considering in BG you had to search around the map for them to come at you (this was visible in the Xvart encampment) my guess it would be boring either way."

It wasn't boring in BG.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Again, not one game is devoid of easy enemies. To say it's 'poor design' is a cop out. Period.

No, saying that easy battles in turnbased take 10+ minutes is the copout, along with it being a self-serving exageration.

The situation I've mentioned is not a problem with turnbased combat. You could just as well have the same problem in realtime - an area with pitifully weak enemies being thrown at high level characters (in fact, that happened pretty much with Baldur's Gate) for no good reason at all. It comes with determining wheter high level characters should be facing 1 HP enemies in large droves or not. And they shouldn't, if it's just an excuse to fill up an area.

It's the nature of the beast that there will be easy combat.

It's the nature of pretty much any game where combat is featured that there will be easy as well as hard combat. There are always ways to handle it so it doesn't bog down or make it difficult for the player, regardless of whatever combat model you're using.

It wasn't boring in BG.

Only for those with short attention spans.

 

[Volourn]

"No, saying that easy battles in turnbased take 10+ minutes is the copout, along with it being a self-serving exageration."

Of course, it was no exaggeration. It is a FACT.



"There are always ways to handle it so it doesn't bog down or make it difficult for the player, regardless of whatever combat model you're using."

Yes, but RT w/pause handles the problem of boring, easy combat much better than tb combat. This is a FACT.


"Only for those with short attention spans."

It is only boring for those who are fools. This is a FACT.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Of course, it was no exaggeration. It is a FACT.

Hearing you talk of facts is like hearing angsty emo types going about how their pain is oh so true. It's mostly hilarious and sad. Sometimes both at the same time. How many times did we cover this by now? Easy battles take less time than harder battles. Easy battle in turnbased take about the same time as in realtime with pause due to the general use of the pause function by players. Unless players take hours to make a decision, and avatars move like they were drowning in molasses, it will be fast.

Yes, but RT w/pause handles the problem of boring, easy combat much better than tb combat. This is a FACT.

Not the point. The point is about how specific combat situations in a combat engine are being used as a dumb excuse to undermine the engine itself, when said situations are there due to bad design in regards to the area itself. You're pointing out situations which are boring because they were ill devised and badly implemented into the game, and pretending (or purposedly neglecting) that they could have been handled differently.

It is only boring for those who are fools. This is a FACT.

Oh please. Baldur's Gate had a terrible way of doing this. OH LOOK AT ME I NEED TO EXPLORE AN INCH OF A MAP BECAUSE ENEMIES WONT ADVANCE IN THOUGH THEYRE RIGHT NEXT TO ME BECAUSE THIS BLACK FOG OF WAR SCREWS THINGS UP.

Even if they came in droves without me having to fetch them every inch around me, you're still dodging the fact (OMGZAFACT? OHNOES) that this is the exact same situation repeating itself. Those Xvarts were terribly weak and easilly dispatched by high level characters, to a point where it wasn't fun - as there was no challenge - and it was boring - as you had to explore every inch around you to make them come out so you could kill them.

That this situation happened in realtime with pause doesn't make it any better. It's the same crappy situation, frozen shit lapped up like chocolate icecream by those that are too busy being hipnotized by the mythical spin of how RTWP solves everything and even fellates you in the proccess. 1 HP Xvarts in Baldur's Gate = 1 HP Ants in Fallout = 1 HP Goblins in Neverwinter Nights. Hordes who just serve as cannon fodder.

But hey, r00fles and all that if it makes you happy.

 

[bgillisp]

"No, saying that easy battles in turnbased take 10+ minutes is the copout, along with it being a self-serving exageration."

Of course, it was no exaggeration. It is a FACT.

Some turn based RPG's have auto-resolve for those easy battles. Ever play the Realms of Arkania series? If you thought the fight was a push-over for your party, you could just have the computer auto-resolve it, and it would, based on your parties skills and such.

And, I do recall playing turn based RPG's without this feature, and getting out of easy battles in < 10 minutes often. Just depended on what you did.

Edit: to clarify points

 

[Volourn]

"Easy battle in turnbased take about the same time as in realtime with pause due to the general use of the pause function by players."

False. If it's in easy battle; you shouldn't need to pause AT ALL.



"Some turn based RPG's have auto-resolve for those easy battles."

If you think that's a good way to solve this problem; you need help.


"1 HP Xvarts in Baldur's Gate = 1 HP Ants in Fallout = 1 HP Goblins in Neverwinter Nights."

Why are you lying?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

False. If it's in easy battle; you shouldn't need to pause AT ALL.

Because as we all now, in easy battles you don't need to move around, nor do you need to target moving targets, or targets inflicted by fear. Riiiight. I suggest going back to writing r00fles and working on your module, it's obviously what you do best.

Why are you lying?

Because you've already gone off the deep end and are now hallucinating. Follow the white rabbit.

 

[bgillisp]

And how is auto-resolve any different from just sitting there watching the battle in real-time? That is exactly what you will do when fighitng level 1 Xvarts when you are level 7 in BG, just sit and watch (just like an auto-resolve TB battle). Either way, you are just watching the characters do the default actiion.

So, why is auto-resolve such a problem? Why are you against it? Any facts you care to share?

 

[Volourn]

Simple. In RT whend elaing with easy battles; the player is still in control of his character. In your 'auto resolve' scenario; a silly calculater is in control of your characrer. If you can't see the dumbness of that in a RPG; there's something wrong.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

As opposed to the calculator that determines wheter you can hit or not, how much damage you can dish out, how much you can shrug off....

 

[bgillisp]

Not all, some TB systems keep you in TB with an option to abort the auto-resolve if things get out of hand. Though, those are a little slower. I think (if memory is right), you could select this form of auto-resolve in Realms of Arkania as well as the quick calculate version.

Though, I see your point too...you are interested in total control at all times, so you do not like auto-resolve. So, what do you think is the optimal solution? Always go RT? RTwP? TB? None of the above?

 

[Volourn]

TOEE's turn base system in the best. This is one aspect that tb combat will likely always lose out on. That's ok though as it has aspects that it inherently does better than RT so they all win.

I like tb combat. I'd be ahrd pressed to choose my favorite between tb and rt w/pause.

 

[bgillisp]

I agree there, as most auto-combat systems suck. Ever lose your level 7 party to level 2 orcs under auto-resolve just because you were feeling lazy that one battle and chose auto-resolve?

 

[EEVIAC]

"Or you could leave battles that pose no threat or challenge to the player out of the game entirely."

If you could honestly show me one game where there is NO easy battles; I'd believe you. Of course, this is an impossible task so you lose.

Although Sacred wasn't without easy battles (I found a lot of the game easy,) enemies that were much lower in level didn't attack, so you weren't forced to graft 8XP per Orc Shaman just for travelling over open country.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

And how is auto-resolve any different from just sitting there watching the battle in real-time? That is exactly what you will do when fighitng level 1 Xvarts when you are level 7 in BG, just sit and watch (just like an auto-resolve TB battle). Either way, you are just watching the characters do the default actiion.

So, why is auto-resolve such a problem? Why are you against it? Any facts you care to share?

Auto-resolve happens very, very quickly. At least, it used to back when processors were 16bit. It was typically a matter of selecting auto-resolve, a second or so later, you were presented with the outcome.

 

[Slaine]

An auto resolve is crap. I dunno but do you rememberJA2? two mercenaries on a roof with dragunov could kill like 30 enemies. Auto resolve just counts numbers, thre is no tactic involved in the auto resolve calculator. In all rpg's it's about tactic you choose. What character you make and how you use your skills ..therfore a calculator has no place in a good rpg. And i agree with volourn about plain stupid and boring fight against ants in fallout or radscorpions in fallout 2. Everybody knows it's tedious monkey work. Not to mention how silly it looks when two people stand against each other and they shoot bursts out of their miniguns and miss. TB is good in certain situations as much as RT in other situations there is no teh best system...yet..or go ahead and have an epic dispute about that

 

[Vault Dweller]

Can we instead make an epic dispute about people who dig out old threads without adding anything to the discussion?

An auto resolve is crap .... Auto resolve just counts numbers, thre is no tactic involved in the auto resolve calculator

So, if someone adds some tactical values based on strategic position/weapons/skills it would work like a charm. Your point was?

What character you make and how you use your skills ..therfore a calculator has no place in a good rpg

What about calculating your chance to hit, damage, defense, etc?

Not to mention how silly it looks when two people stand against each other and they shoot bursts out of their miniguns and miss

Your understanding of game concepts is very limited

TB is good in certain situations as much as RT in other situations there is no teh best system...

Nobody's ever stated otherwise, but thanks for telling us anyway!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

An auto resolve is crap. I dunno but do you rememberJA2? two mercenaries on a roof with dragunov could kill like 30 enemies. Auto resolve just counts numbers, thre is no tactic involved in the auto resolve calculator. In all rpg's it's about tactic you choose. What character you make and how you use your skills ..therfore a calculator has no place in a good rpg.

If you were facing 30+ enemies with four to six guys, I doubt you'd be using auto-resolve anyway unless those enemies were armless children. Auto-resolve is for those wonderful times when you stand no chance at really losing.

 

[Slaine]

So, if someone adds some tactical values based on strategic position/weapons/skills it would work like a charm. Your point was?

How you want to make a program to strategicly position your character\characters? why not have a button auto win battle then.

What about calculating your chance to hit, damage, defense, etc.

You really have no idea about tactics. It's extremely important to plan ahead which spells to use first which later when to change a weapon when to retreat .. sometimes it's just a change of tactics that makes a diffrence - that's a sentence from load screen in BG.

Your understanding of game concepts is very limited

It looks silly when two people stand against each other and they shoot bursts out of their miniguns and miss period

Nobody's ever stated otherwise, but thanks for telling us anyway!

No, saying that easy battles in turnbased take 10+ minutes is the copout, along with it being a self-serving exageration.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I really need to make an instructional video on HOW TO USE THE PHPBB QUOTE FEATURE that plays when you register.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Holy fuck! At least use " or > if the phpbb stuff is too complex for you. Anyway...

How you want to make a program to strategicly position your character\characters? why not have a button auto win battle then.

You do know how to read, don't you? I didn't say position, I said use values based on.... You can position your character, equip proper weapons, and if fighting is too boring for you, then you click auto resolve.

You really have no idea about tactics. It's extremely important to plan ahead which spells to use first which later when to change a weapon when to retreat ..

Damn! I wish someone told that to me earlier!
What part of "it would be nice to have auto-resolve for all those boring 5-ants-vs-a-lvl20-guy-in-power-armor" did you miss?

No, saying that easy battles in turnbased take 10+ minutes is the copout, along with it being a self-serving exageration.

Huh? What? Are you sure you got the right forum?

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

People who complain that an auto-resolve feature is letting a calcualtor play the game for them not only have no idea what a computer is/how it works they also have no idea how RPG mechanics work.

If they disagree then I want them to explain precisely why it is better to manually fight rats at lvl 20 when it is foregone conclusion no matter what you do then clicking an auto-resolve button. Incidentally if you really get a kick out of fighting rats with the PC at l.20, most games that feature an auto-resolve allow you to choose whether or not to use it.

And it is just shit design to have a l.20 PC fighting rats/goblins/treetoads. Just because almost all games make the same mistake in design does not mean it is not a mistake.

 

[Vault Dweller]

And it is just shit design to have a l.20 PC fighting rats/goblins/treetoads. Just because almost all games make the same mistake in design does not mean it is not a mistake.

Aint that the truth. However, if we have to, for whatever stupid reason, I'd like to have an option to auto-resolve it.