Interview Interview with Jeff Vogel

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Tags: Avadon: The Black Fortress; Jeff Vogel; Spiderweb Software

<p>Sinister Design's Craig Stern<a href="http://indierpgs.com/2011/06/interview-with-jeff-vogel/" target="_blank"> interviewed Indie RPG guru Jeff Vogel</a> on the topics of Avadon and his next move as a RPG developer among other things.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><strong>You&rsquo;ve stated that Avadon&rsquo;s sales exceeded your expectations. Without getting into specific numbers, would you say that adopting Avadon&rsquo;s more linear, class-based approach was a good business decision for Spiderweb?</strong></p>
<p>I can&rsquo;t point at any one decision in Avadon and say, &ldquo;That was the one.&rdquo; Avadon is hundreds and hundreds of discrete decisions, each of which add up to one full game that turned out pretty well. What I will say is that changing everything up every few years is a good decision. I need to keep things fresh to not burn out. I don&rsquo;t think a lot of people realize how important this is.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><strong>How about from a developer sanity perspective? (It seems to me, for instance, that discrete classes would be much, much easier to balance than amorphous balls of skills and stats.)</strong></p>
<p>Not too bad. Happily, Avadon has no PVP. Having to balance classes against each other is the really tough thing to do.</p>
<p>&nbsp;</p>
<p><strong>Is there a danger in poking your head out of the small <a href="http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.com/2009/04/indie-games-should-cost-more-pt-1.html">niche</a> you&rsquo;ve carved for yourself over the many years that you&rsquo;ve been making games?</strong></p>
<p>Change is always dangerous, but Avadon still very firmly in the same niche we&rsquo;ve always been in. Low-budget, story-rich, indie RPG. The differences between Avadon and, say, Geneforge is really not that large.</p>
</blockquote>

 

[DragoFireheart]

I might pick up one of these Spiderweb games some day.

Anyways, wasn't there some drama revolving around the release of Avadon?

 

[ElectricOtter]

Anyways, wasn't there some drama revolving around the release of Avadon?

It turned out to be a shitty, linear game much more like a Bioware game than anything Jeff has put out in the past. People raged, some saw it as a sign that things could only go downhill from there. Some predicted that Jeff stepping out of his niche would ruin his business, but that hasn't happened... yet. Avadon's high sales may be influenced by pretty graphics and the fact that it's the start of a all new series. I guess we'll have to wait and see how Avadon 2 fares.

 

[Bluebottle]

I must admit that I've been generally put off the Spiderweb games in the past, by the feeling that I'm late to the party. The start of a new series seems like a good opportunity to pick one of them up.

However all this, no doubt over egged, talk of decline etc. makes me wonder: has there been a drop in the standards of writing/story (which seems to be the overriding reason to play Vogel's games)?

I can take distinctly average combat, and a lack of choices, if there's a decent yarn to be had.

 

[Pope Amole]

I need to keep things fresh to not burn out. I don’t think a lot of people realize how important this is.

I'm curious, does he believe that bullshit himself? No, really? You can say and whatever think whatever you want about Avadon, you can love it, you can hate it, but the fact remains that, in the core, it's exactly the same as every other spiderweb product. I mean, you speak with the dragon and it speaks and behaves exactly that every other dragon from the Avernum/Geneforge universe, same goes for demons, goblins, ogres and other nonhuman bastards, soldiers behave like usuals, bandits behave like usual, mages behave... You get the gist of it, I hope. Spells and skills, while rearranged, are composed of the very same abilities, that were there before, well, maybe with some minor additions. Almost all the boss battles that should be challenging, intricate fights, requiring clever design, are copy-pasted from previous games. Models and other graphics are also mostly borrowed. Plot is practically geneforge-redux, only in a much, much more boring setting. Basically, everything in the game has been taken from the previous works of Vogel, only with the addition of such in-nuh-vations as 99% linearity, auto-regen and auto-ressurection, dumbified RPG system without tons of choice, dumbed down plot, etc.

So what's fresh about this shit, eh? It's like calling a fucking amputatee with a peg leg a new man because look, instead of a healthy leg he wears a mighty wooden club, oh yeah!

 

[Jasede]

Well, some people claim that everything he ever blogs or says in interviews is just stupid on purpose, so as to cleverly troll the reader or the industry. Well, I say that is nonsense and people are just clinging to the idea that this man can make good games.

Maybe he could, when he was poor and constrained. But the more he is fed money and success, the more he either changes or unmasks himself further: just another Bioware developer in the making.

Remember George Lucas? Same thing here.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Well, some people claim that everything he ever blogs or says in interviews is just stupid on purpose, so as to cleverly troll the reader or the industry. Well, I say that is nonsense and people are just clinging to the idea that this man can make good games.

Maybe he could, when he was poor and constrained. But the more he is fed money and success, the more he either changes or unmasks himself further: just another Bioware developer in the making.

Remember George Lucas? Same thing here.

What can change the nature of a man?

 

[mangsy]

I clicked on this thread thinking the Codex was interviewing Vogel. Now that would be an interesting read.

 

[Gondolin]

What can change the nature of a man?

Success, apparently.

 

[Annonchinil]

At the start of avernum 6 I wished it had quick travel. Its map is akward and until I was used to it I was getting lost. But then again, I am klutz at maps or directions.

 

[thesheeep]

Travelling rarely is fun in games. This is why many games have at least quick travel.

The only exceptions (meaning, games in which travelling is fun) are below a dozen, I think, and I'm including all genres, except jump&run, pure shooters and racing games, which resolve around nothing but travelling
Also, Mirror's Edge doesn't count, since I see that as a racing game on foot.

- RoA/DSA 1+2
- Prototype
- Just Cause 1,2
- City Of Heroes/Villains (no, really, jumping around there was fun, at least for me)
Uhm... If I would think harder, I could probably name a few more, but you get the idea.


Then there are some games like Fallout1+2, in which travelling is at least bearable.

 

[Andhaira]

Travelling was pretty fun in Startrail too.

 

[thesheeep]

- RoA/DSA 1+2

Travelling was pretty fun in Startrail too.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Then there are some games like Fallout1+2, in which travelling is at least bearable.

Fallout 1+2 have quick-travel. 3 days of travel take 10 seconds.

 

[Elzair]

The Ultima series had pretty fun travelling.

 

[J_J_M]

I don't think Avadon sold more because it was "streamlined". Vogel's games don't attract the kind of demographic who prefer simplified mainstream RPGs. It probably has everything to do with the fact that the game simply looks better graphically than his previous games. It doesn't feel like a Roguelike anymore. It's starting to look like a proper graphical RPG game. Vogel could keep the complexity of his previous games, and I bet it would still sell as much as it does now, simply because it looks better than his old games.

I think It's wrong to think "dumbing down RPGs = more sales". It has only worked for a couple of large studios so far, namely Bethesda and Bioware. Even DA2 backfired for Bioware after they thought it would lead to increased sales.

 

[Phelot]

I clicked on this thread thinking the Codex was interviewing Vogel. Now that would be an interesting read.

Actually, me too and I have in the past. Hey VoD, you might want to change your titles to read something like "Sinister Design's Interview with Jeff Vogel" otherwise it makes it seem like we interviewed them.

I'd love to see some interviews by us, too

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

What do you want to ask him? Didn't he make his position clear?

Here, as I see it, is the story of RPG Codex. These people love, love, love old-school hardcore RPGs. The sort that used to be common on the ground and have faded away. They were forsaken by Sir-Tech, and Origin, and SSI, and Bioware, and now me.

 

[Phelot]

What do you want to ask him? Didn't he make his position clear?

Here, as I see it, is the story of RPG Codex. These people love, love, love old-school hardcore RPGs. The sort that used to be common on the ground and have faded away. They were forsaken by Sir-Tech, and Origin, and SSI, and Bioware, and now me.

Ask him why he has forsaken us.

 

[commie]

Bioware used to make hardcore old-school RPG's?

 

[SCO]

What do you want to ask him? Didn't he make his position clear?

Here, as I see it, is the story of RPG Codex. These people love, love, love old-school hardcore RPGs. The sort that used to be common on the ground and have faded away. They were forsaken by Sir-Tech, and Origin, and SSI, and Bioware, and now me.

Ask him why hast he forsaken us.

fixed

Also fuck you vogel. Making geneforge 5 and then making avadon is more than decline. It is a discontinuity.

 

[Roguey]

Remember, a gaming genre is only viable if it is trying to bring in new players. If most of the new RPGs are made to be scary to people who have never played them before, it is just bad for the genre.

WHAT REALITY DO YOU LIVE IN VOGEL

 

[PorkaMorka]

I'm not sure if Biowarizing the game increased sales. It wouldn't shock me, people are retarded.

But I'd be willing to bet a large amount of money that changing the graphics from "hideous" to "charmingly retro" led to a significant increase in sales.

There are a lot of people out there who will be interested in a game that looks like Eschalon but not one that looks like Avernum.

For this reason people claiming that this (bad) game would destroy Vogel were foolish.

Not trying to justify it, just sayin'.

 

[tindrli]

hmmmm.. compared with all so called RPG-s on the marked for at least a decade i think his games are GREAT!!!

 

[Nim]

However all this, no doubt over egged, talk of decline etc. makes me wonder: has there been a drop in the standards of writing/story (which seems to be the overriding reason to play Vogel's games)?

His writing was imo never anything special. I thought for a time he got rid of his habit of telling the player how they felt about things but after just playing A6 I see that he still does it. Really annoying.
Think what people mean when they talk about good Vogel writing is more the Geneforge setting which is really nice ( at least in G1 & 2 ). Seeing as what came after it I'd say he just got lucky there.