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Is KoToR worth playing?

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
Uh, I think it's safe to say that if you don't like a game in the first place, you probably shouldn't be playing a mod that gives you more of it

Playing Kotor 2 when it came out, completely blind (like, for example, having no preconceptions about how "influence" was supposed to be handled), as a darkside character... I mistakenly thought a darkside character was supposed to be a dick to everyone all the time.

Mindlessly "playing a darkside character" by always selecting the nastiest dialogue choice is itself metagamey. It's like always selecting the third choice in a Mass Effect dialogue wheel

I honestly don't recall what my frame of mind while playing was, but in any case the main thing I did that K2 wasn't built for was not giving a shit about how much the companions like the PC. You can have a pretty fully developed darkside playthrough even without restored content in that game (ending aside), mostly being a lunatic asshole even, f you just go through the companion stuff as though the NPCs are precious mysteries to be cultivated instead of people on your boat. This was all before years and years of Obsidian trying different ways to do influence and players getting used to it being a content gate/source of loot and not a genuine feedback mechanism.
 

Commissar Draco

Codexia Comrade Colonel Commissar
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The problem is they'd have to essentially make two games to do a good and evil side because they are both so different. To be good, you build up allies through noble deeds and helping out anyone you can. To be truly evil, a maniacal genius, you'd have to be doing anything to increase your personal power and gain allies through power, manipulation, and fear on a much larger scale. They can't really do that without making two games, so you have to essentially come across the same people you're expected to help for good points and be a dick to them. Which is thuggish, small time, and lame.

Its called re playability and C&C which should be a plus on Codex atleast; and KOTOR2 can played as manipulative Sith like Kreia wishes and not Chaotic stupid type; the end result for both you and galaxy is better than going full way Mc Budhists... and dieing pointless death in TOR; Also most influence choices are either common sense (don't kill people in front of goody two shoes characters) and basic psychology (Tell People what they want to hear); if you fail at this you're just stupid Sith which means Death Sith. :incline: (if play as NPC segments were not so ridiculously easy) Every good companion can be quite easily turned and kept loyal.
 
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Horus

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Yeah, it's pretty obvious that both games were effectively written with a light side protagonist in mind, seeing as most of your 'villainous' actions in both games veer inbetween DARK AND EDGY banalshit and just plain old being a prick to everybody. Hell, Kreia even effectively says how badly you fucked up the game by playing as a dark side character if you do go full retarded evulz.

It's one of the main reasons why I've never liked the Sith. They're basically just a gaggle of chaotic evil fuckwits who can't even decide on where they should go for fucking lunch without tearing each others throats out, let alone be able take over the galaxy. The level where you go undercover at a Sith temple just beats home how these people should not fucking work in any truly organized capacity.
There are supposed to be only two ruling sith in the universe and rest of the dark jedi are just aspiring to become one. They have a warrior culture that promotes violence among each other to keep out weakling from their ranks. They are not leaders like jedis and are prone to back stabbing so they are not used to lead units most of the time.(Only the main apprentice like Vader)
Sith academy was mainly used for raising warrior so it's actually better environment to raise people for war than useless jedi academy.
 

Jick Magger

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Not sure I agree here, I think that choice is somewhat of an outlier. I played the whole ME series going renegade 90% of the time just to be a Dirty Harry style badass, and I never felt evil. Series has a ton of flaws but I don't think renegade being evil is one of them, unless you're super liberal pacifist guy.
That's not quite my complaint. I'll admit that the first game in the series handles the Paragon/Renegade balance fairly well, but it starts to slip up with ME2 with a bunch of 'renegade' options that basically serve no real purpose other than to be a petty dickhead (i.e. ruining a relationship for no particular reason) or a full-blown idiot (the aforementioned Samara/Morinth choice). This kinda came to a head in ME3, where quite a few renegade options will lead to you killing people that you really want to keep alive to help battle the Reaper invasion.
 

Rake

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Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
Not sure I agree here, I think that choice is somewhat of an outlier. I played the whole ME series going renegade 90% of the time just to be a Dirty Harry style badass, and I never felt evil. Series has a ton of flaws but I don't think renegade being evil is one of them, unless you're super liberal pacifist guy.
That's not quite my complaint. I'll admit that the first game in the series handles the Paragon/Renegade balance fairly well, but it starts to slip up with ME2 with a bunch of 'renegade' options that basically serve no real purpose other than to be a petty dickhead (i.e. ruining a relationship for no particular reason) or a full-blown idiot (the aforementioned Samara/Morinth choice). This kinda came to a head in ME3, where quite a few renegade options will lead to you killing people that you really want to keep alive to help battle the Reaper invasion.
well, if DA2 is an indication, is the new Bioware mentality. Evil=batshit crazy.
 

Ninjerk

Arcane
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
14,323
TSL makes the assumption that the player will always want to be the goody-two-shoes or the complete asshole

What do you mean when you say, "TSL?"

The Sith Lords. KOTOR 2

I meant it tongue in cheek because I can not understand how anyone can say

kenup said:
TSL makes the assumption that the player will always want to be the goody-two-shoes or the complete asshole

this about KotOR 2. I don't remember those being the only dialogue options.
 

kenup

Scholar
Joined
Jul 25, 2013
Messages
134
Codex 2014
kenup said:
TSL makes the assumption that the player will always want to be the goody-two-shoes or the complete asshole

this about KotOR 2. I don't remember those being the only dialogue options.

While they may not always be only two dialogue options, the results are almost always one of the two. Also usually followed by a lecture from Kreia, to which I search for the answer "The game didn't give any sensible option, don't blame me!". It's not just for good vs evulz options though, the game generally forces you, IMO, into situations without giving the right motivation for the player to care or want to be involved. When there are sensible/smarter options the game shines, but aside from that...
 

hoverdog

dog that is hovering, Wastelands Interactive
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Project: Eternity
Not sure I agree here, I think that choice is somewhat of an outlier. I played the whole ME series going renegade 90% of the time just to be a Dirty Harry style badass, and I never felt evil. Series has a ton of flaws but I don't think renegade being evil is one of them, unless you're super liberal pacifist guy.
That's not quite my complaint. I'll admit that the first game in the series handles the Paragon/Renegade balance fairly well, but it starts to slip up with ME2 with a bunch of 'renegade' options that basically serve no real purpose other than to be a petty dickhead (i.e. ruining a relationship for no particular reason) or a full-blown idiot (the aforementioned Samara/Morinth choice). This kinda came to a head in ME3, where quite a few renegade options will lead to you killing people that you really want to keep alive to help battle the Reaper invasion.
well, if DA2 is an indication, is the new Bioware mentality. Evil=batshit crazy.
new? :nocountryforshitposters:
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
Not sure I agree here, I think that choice is somewhat of an outlier. I played the whole ME series going renegade 90% of the time just to be a Dirty Harry style badass, and I never felt evil. Series has a ton of flaws but I don't think renegade being evil is one of them, unless you're super liberal pacifist guy.
That's not quite my complaint. I'll admit that the first game in the series handles the Paragon/Renegade balance fairly well, but it starts to slip up with ME2 with a bunch of 'renegade' options that basically serve no real purpose other than to be a petty dickhead (i.e. ruining a relationship for no particular reason) or a full-blown idiot (the aforementioned Samara/Morinth choice). This kinda came to a head in ME3, where quite a few renegade options will lead to you killing people that you really want to keep alive to help battle the Reaper invasion.
well, if DA2 is an indication, is the new Bioware mentality. Evil=batshit crazy.
new? :nocountryforshitposters:
:lol:
Well, to be fair, while they always favored the boring stupid evil approach both in antagonists and the player options, until the last years they where not clinicaly insane.
Compair KOTOR to DA2 for example. The first had an idiot saturday morning cartoon vilain, the second 2 "vilains" that could have escaped from a madhouse.
 

Grimlorn

Arcane
Joined
Jun 1, 2011
Messages
10,248
The problem is they'd have to essentially make two games to do a good and evil side because they are both so different. To be good, you build up allies through noble deeds and helping out anyone you can. To be truly evil, a maniacal genius, you'd have to be doing anything to increase your personal power and gain allies through power, manipulation, and fear on a much larger scale. They can't really do that without making two games, so you have to essentially come across the same people you're expected to help for good points and be a dick to them. Which is thuggish, small time, and lame.

Its called re playability and C&C which should be a plus on Codex atleast; and KOTOR2 can played as manipulative Sith like Kreia wishes and not Chaotic stupid type; the end result for both you and galaxy is better than going full way Mc Budhists... and dieing pointless death in TOR; Also most influence choices are either common sense (don't kill people in front of goody two shoes characters) and basic psychology (Tell People what they want to hear); if you fail at this you're just stupid Sith which means Death Sith. :incline: (if play as NPC segments were not so ridiculously easy) Every good companion can be quite easily turned and kept loyal.
My point was you'd have to go to different places, meet different characters, do things completely different from the other. I wasn't saying C&C and replayability are bad. Yeah I guess you can lie a few times in KOTOR 2. It's still just PG in terms of doing Evil stuff.
 

DalekFlay

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That's not quite my complaint. I'll admit that the first game in the series handles the Paragon/Renegade balance fairly well, but it starts to slip up with ME2 with a bunch of 'renegade' options that basically serve no real purpose other than to be a petty dickhead (i.e. ruining a relationship for no particular reason) or a full-blown idiot (the aforementioned Samara/Morinth choice). This kinda came to a head in ME3, where quite a few renegade options will lead to you killing people that you really want to keep alive to help battle the Reaper invasion.

I know I chose some neutral or even paragon options a few times here and there to avoid being truly evil, but I don't remember it happening with anywhere near the frequency you seem to be assigning it. And I killed a lot of people, even friends, but I always did it to save a larger amount of people, or a war asset, or whatever.

It would be hard to really debate it in detail unless I just finished the game though, I guess.
 

kenup

Scholar
Joined
Jul 25, 2013
Messages
134
Codex 2014
Those are countered by the :incline:Dxun Temple quest. At least if the followers you send are prepared for it.
 

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