Decline Is there such a thing as narrative bloat?

[Norfleet]

Manuals were better, because they gave you something to read on the shitter, whereas this doesn't work with in-game material.

 

[octavius]

There is a problem when your game is set in a world in which the player character(s) is a native. The player should then know about the world of his character, especially if the PC is a wizard or cleric or knight, and not some peasant boy from a secluded village.
But if the PC is as much an outsider to the game world as the player, you can reveal things incrementally and by exploring, removing the need for exposition, which is more fun.

 

[Tihskael]

Pillars of Eternity had a lot of reading and talking and I sort of just tuned out eventually, so that's a good example. Any game that frontloads too much LORE to explain its setting and story usually has this effect.

I spent hours reading and comprehending lore in that fucking game and I walked away with nothing, absolutely nothing. Something something watcher something past life something.

 

[Tihskael]

Pillars of Eternity had a lot of reading and talking and I sort of just tuned out eventually, so that's a good example. Any game that frontloads too much LORE to explain its setting and story usually has this effect.

I spent hours reading and comprehending lore in that fucking game and I walked away with nothing, absolutely nothing. Something something watcher something past life something.

Compare that to a masterpiece game like Shkyrim. Get rid of evil dragons by mastering the dragon tongue. Something you would reminisce about fondly even in your loneliest moments.

Spoiler

 

[Fargus]

A game with interesting and well written lore is capable of making the player care and do his own research if he wants. But generic pile of garbage like PoE just shits boring walls of text all over you.

Fuck PoE.

 

[Reinhardt]

There is a problem when your game is set in a world in which the player character(s) is a native. The player should then know about the world of his character, especially if the PC is a wizard or cleric or knight, and not some peasant boy from a secluded village.
But if the PC is as much an outsider to the game world as the player, you can reveal things incrementally and by exploring, removing the need for exposition, which is more fun.

even better if your character don't even speak same language as native niggers so you can just skip to combat. "and ooga-booga to you too, my beautiful diverse friend." BANG

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Pillars of Eternity had a lot of reading and talking and I sort of just tuned out eventually, so that's a good example. Any game that frontloads too much LORE to explain its setting and story usually has this effect.

I spent hours reading and comprehending lore in that fucking game and I walked away with nothing, absolutely nothing. Something something watcher something past life something.

I've beaten the game multiple times and I don't remember SHIT about the story.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

There is a problem when your game is set in a world in which the player character(s) is a native. The player should then know about the world of his character, especially if the PC is a wizard or cleric or knight, and not some peasant boy from a secluded village.
But if the PC is as much an outsider to the game world as the player, you can reveal things incrementally and by exploring, removing the need for exposition, which is more fun.

Isekai/stranger in a strange land is an underused set up in CRPGs. Why don't we ever see anything like Ultima anymore? Don't tell me Richard Garriott copyrighted it.

 

[Reinhardt]

Isekai/stranger in a strange land is an underused set up in CRPGs.

that's what i'm sloooooooooooooowly doing in kotc2 module creator. something between shogun and path of exile - shipwrecked in some fucked up land, you can't even talk with locals, need to find refuge, learn language and customs, make yourself useful for locals, find patron.

 

[Kabas]

There is a simple way to figure out if your game has a narrative bloat or not.
If you open a in-game log/note/whatever and your first thought is "wordy wordy words, can't be arsed to read this" then your game is definitely having this issue.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Yeah, I’m definitely concerned with avoiding exposition for exposition’s sake. It can easily come across as pretentious self-important ego-stroking on the part of the writer.

I think Planescape: Torment avoids this for the most part. It has over a million words and the amount of dialogue options may come across as excessive or filler, but it’s concerned with giving the player freedom to make choices and generally doesn’t resort to clumsy exposition dumps. For the most part the PC is solving mysteries by putting together the clues himself. While the game teases a ton of lore about different worlds, creatures, and items of the multiverse that aren’t relevant to the overall plot, I never felt like those tidbits would’ve made for a better premise.

 

[Lizard]

The worst thing about modern writing is when the writer describes and explains everything down to tiny little details leaving no room for the audience's imagination. Goes hand in hand with designers making dumb downed mechanics cause they have no faith in the audience's intelligence. Playing older games my imagination always filled in the gaps.

 

[Norfleet]

Yes, modern writing in games is clearly overdone. I miss the days when you just had to figure out why on Earth you couldn't get ye flask, because the game wasn't going to tell you, and there were no pretty graphics to help you out, either.

 

[J1M]

If more than one person on the project has the job of writer, the game has bloat.

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

Isekai/stranger in a strange land is an underused set up in CRPGs. Why don't we ever see anything like Ultima anymore?

I got one word for you: Forspoken.

Be careful what you wish for. If you think your games are pozzed today, wait until the dangerhairs realize they can turn the protagonists into literal self-inserts with Mary Sue powers.

 

[Maxwell's Demon]

Isekai/stranger in a strange land is an underused set up in CRPGs. Why don't we ever see anything like Ultima anymore?

I got one word for you: Forspoken.

Be careful what you wish for. If you think your games are pozzed today, wait until the dangerhairs realize they can turn the protagonists into literal self-inserts with Mary Sue powers.

They already do that with their companion NPCs. Why would they give agency to the player?

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

Be careful what you wish for. If you think your games are pozzed today, wait until the dangerhairs realize they can turn the protagonists into literal self-inserts with Mary Sue powers.

They already do that with their companion NPCs. Why would they give agency to the player?

Who said anything about agency? All your dialogue options will be about teaching the backwards people of the fantasy world how toxic and problematic their behavior is.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

"muh worldbuilding"

Worldbuilding is the cornerstone of any good work of fantasy and sci-fi fiction, dumbass

 

[DJOGamer PT]

What people have always failed to understand is that writing, not visuals, not music, not anything else, is the most crucial element to any narrative-driven endeavor.

In games Storytelling can be conveyed far more elegantly and vigorously, through gameplay mechanics than it can through writing
So technically, your statement is incorrect...

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I would call the books in TES games narrative bloat.

Sometimes they point to some locations. They might have been integrated more deeply into the narrative and for example provide additional dialogue options if player has read a book, but to call them a bloat is just a pedantry.

The Lusty Argonian Maid contributes nothing to the overall game, and very little to the world

The Lusty Argonian Maid is a touching story that makes reader life better.

 

[Fedora Master]

Pillars of Eternity had a lot of reading and talking and I sort of just tuned out eventually, so that's a good example. Any game that frontloads too much LORE to explain its setting and story usually has this effect.

I spent hours reading and comprehending lore in that fucking game and I walked away with nothing, absolutely nothing. Something something watcher something past life something.

I've beaten the game multiple times and I don't remember SHIT about the story.

To be fair, the game doesn't give a fuck about its story either. Nothing you do matters. Your Stronghold gets blown up anyway. Big Green Dude goes on a rampage no matter what.

 

[SomeGuyWithAnOpinion]

Sometimes they point to some locations. They might have been integrated more deeply into the narrative and for example provide additional dialogue options if player has read a book, but to call them a bloat is just a pedantry.

I gave an argument and specifically gave exceptions for cases where they do integrate books well, how exactly is it pedantic?

 

[Tyranicon]

What people have always failed to understand is that writing, not visuals, not music, not anything else, is the most crucial element to any narrative-driven endeavor.

In games Storytelling can be conveyed far more elegantly and vigorously, through gameplay mechanics than it can through writing
So technically, your statement is incorrect...

Depends. There could be a narrative-driven experience that has no tangible writing whatsoever: no dialogue, no narration, no descriptions, etc.

But it would be so restricted that it would almost be certainly relegated to being an arthouse project.

In our search for elegance, we perhaps lose significance. It's like style without substance.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

Sometimes they point to some locations. They might have been integrated more deeply into the narrative and for example provide additional dialogue options if player has read a book, but to call them a bloat is just a pedantry.

I gave an argument and specifically gave exceptions for cases where they do integrate books well, how exactly is it pedantic?

Sorry didn't read the last paragraph fully only skimmed it and thought you changed the topic.

 

[Humanophage]

I liked the idea with pop-up explanations in Pillars of Eternity 2. Its problem isn't so much the narrative pacing per se as the boring combat, a lacklustre setting, and unexciting characters. If Planescape: Torment had pop-up explanations, or better yet a kind of expanded Civilopedia, it would have been a welcome addition. Storytelling is overrated anyway. Many of the more interesting fantasy stories are simply setting expositions. E.g., this is great: