Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

1eyedking Is Thief a downgrade from Deus Ex/System Shock 2/etc?

Dave the Druid

Educated
Joined
Dec 29, 2022
Messages
193
:negative:

Decline fags like you lot led to the steep decline of the Immersive Sim. When their most successful and popular game is also one of their most unambitious and was a fucking medieval bow shooter up until the last six months of development, well that's just how the world works. You're all the lowest common denominator demographic the genre could reach at that time.

NOT TO SAY IT'S A BAD GAME. Calm yourselves. But have any of you idiots even looked at Ultima Underworld? So much promise for the future, but as always compromise is a necessity.

So I'm sorry that I'm... Jesus, 7 years late to the party but I just read through the entire Thief development diary off the old Looking Glass website (available here and here) and I couldn't help but think of this thread. The dev diary runs from January 1997 - July 1998 of Thief's development (Thief released in December of 1998) and almost all entires were written by Tim Stellmach. Here's the literal first entry, bold emphasis by me:
January 31, 1997
The programmers pushed the game to a new milestone; we can now save off objects, AI paths, and most other elements of the game that are in yet. Before, we could only save physical geometry, and had to re-set all that other stuff each time we loaded up.

Briscoe's gotten the AI stuff, especially the enemy detection code, into shape far ahead of schedule, and now we've all got to test it to hell. Sneaking around and avoiding detection are key elements of the game, so we need to make sure his algorithms are sound.

The artists have been re-structuring the textures for our new texture regime, wherein we can use any number of texture or texture groups we want. Before, you could only use one texture "family" at once, so if you were making catacombs, you had to make sure all the textures you wanted were in that "family". Now we can cross-match as we see fit; this means the levels will look a lot more realistic look than they already do, since we're not tied into artificial groupings. Objects are also popping into the game -- full bipeds real soon.

On the design end, we're busy going over the levels, making sure they flow together right and have the right amount of "coolness". We're also checking for the right "ramping up" of game events -- don't want to top-load all the good stuff and have the rest be dull. We also want to make sure we're teaching all the skills at the right rate, so that you don't have to keep looking at the manual during your first hour of play.

Robb's been taking our pictures for promotional material. This involves going to our A/V studio, turning off all the lights, and sitting right over a spotlight pointed at your chin. Don't look down -- damn, you're blind for minutes!

Here's another really early one, this time from March 1997:
March 14, 1997
...
We've moved on to nailing down our design of the creature list and stealth systems. Since we're concentrating on a thief as player-character that last bit is going to be particularly important, and we've been putting our heads together over AI models, audiovisual cues, and a number of game rules to bring it all off. There's not a lot of precedents for a game concentrating so much on stealth: I told a friend of mine that we had a two-hour flame comparing our game to a submarine battle. She said she didn't understand how I got paid to do this stuff.

Hell, there's even an explanation as to why all the early gameplay footage relied heavily on bow combat:
December 12, 1997
...
Plenty of stuff going on since the last update. Mark has started working up some new interface screens, with cool clunky-looking steam-punk machinery. Doug, Mahk, and I are strategizing about inventory, using objects, damage models, and suchlike gameplay goodness.

Chris, in his guise as physics guy is getting doors in this week, much to the joy of designers everywhere. Tom is in the final stages of getting our scripting language together, which will really unblock our upcoming (mid-January) gameplay prototype. Many correspondents have noted that our current "gameplay" movie is heavy on bow combat and light on thievery: the simple reason is that bow combat is just about the easiest part of our game to implement. The next month or two will be when we really get into the meat of the gameplay, with lockpicking and pickpocketing mechanics coming on line, plus hand-to-hand combat, and AI and scripting support for more interesting creature behaviors.

So it turns out nearly everything Ash said about Thief in this thread is just, plain, flat-out incorrect. It's not really a "valid opinion" when you are just objectively wrong. Or to put it more succinctly:
tl;dr: Ash is a solid modder but possibly retadred

GMDX is still cool though
 

destinae vomitus

Educated
Joined
Apr 25, 2021
Messages
93
Thief not being centered around stealth from the get-go is a retarded meme that needs to be taken behind the shed, along with cretinous creatures like Yahtzee Croshaw who purported and helped perpetuate that idea in the first place. It's "correct" if you really want to split hairs and take into account the fact that Dark Camelot, the game that LGS were initially meaning to make and ended up as the foundation for Thief after being canceled (i.e. you could say it was part of its development), wasn't a stealth game. Though stealth was a component, one that they found fun enough to build an entire game around in favor of the fencing focused action-adventure they were trying to put together.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,230
Best ever thread.

My apologies, I was very frustrated back then for multitude of reasons all stacked on top and was a little sensitive as a result. Now we can call each other retards without unnecessary additional theatrics.

Anyway, opinion still hasn't changed. Arx Fatalis/Deus Ex/System Shock 2 is my LGS-derived holy trinity, as well as to a lesser extent Ultima Underworld. Must be a result of all those childhood beatings :incline:

GMDX is still cool though
You're welcome, stranger.
 

Dave the Druid

Educated
Joined
Dec 29, 2022
Messages
193
Best ever thread.

My apologies, I was very frustrated back then for multitude of reasons all stacked on top and was a little sensitive as a result. Now we can call each other retards without unnecessary additional theatrics.

Anyway, opinion still hasn't changed. Arx Fatalis/Deus Ex/System Shock 2 is my LGS-derived holy trinity, as well as to a lesser extent Ultima Underworld. Must be a result of all those childhood beatings :incline:

GMDX is still cool though
You're welcome, stranger.
Awwwwwww... but what if I wanted to have an autistic screaming match with you about bullshit video game nonsense that doesn't actually matter in grand scheme of things? Not cool, man.

(Personally I liked Ultima Underworld more than Arx Fatalis but maybe that's just me)
 

Dave the Druid

Educated
Joined
Dec 29, 2022
Messages
193
Thief not being centered around stealth from the get-go is a retarded meme that needs to be taken behind the shed, along with cretinous creatures like Yahtzee Croshaw who purported and helped perpetuate that idea in the first place. It's "correct" if you really want to split hairs and take into account the fact that Dark Camelot, the game that LGS were initially meaning to make and ended up as the foundation for Thief after being canceled (i.e. you could say it was part of its development), wasn't a stealth game. Though stealth was a component, one that they found fun enough to build an entire game around in favor of the fencing focused action-adventure they were trying to put together.
Well more than that Thief was literally in development as Thief (well, actually it was just called The Dark Project back then but I mean it was in development as Thief rather than Dark Camelot) at least as early as December 1996, a full 2 years before the game shipped. Here's the original press release and just in case WayBack Machine shits itself again, here it is in full
LOOKING GLASS UNVEILS "DARK" PROJECT
Next Generation Engine drives Remarkable Role Playing Game Set for 1997 Release

Dec 18, 1996 - The extraordinary talents at Looking Glass Technologies, creators of such hits as the Ultima Underworld series, System Shock and Terra Nova, today unveiled their previously top-secret "Dark" project, which will produce a revolutionary CD-ROM role playing game set for release in early 1997.

Dark will transport players to a magical age via a next generation 3D engine that combines lightning fast frame rates with advanced texture mapping to create a true "6D" world. The game will feature Act/React technology to produce a uniquely immersive environment in which objects will react as you intuitively expect. Dynamic lighting and interactive water, a realistic weapons interface, mission-based gameplay and an in-depth storyline all enhance the game experience.

"We pioneered immersive reality on the computer with our Underworld series," said Paul Neurath, president of Looking Glass Technologies. "The ‘Dark’ project will take the roleplaying genre to a whole new level, and demonstrates our commitment to lead the industry."

Looking Glass’ unique level editors allows designers to build intricate areas, from sloping passageways and underwater tunnels to arching cathedrals. Each environment that the player explores will be rich in object interactions beyond that ever seen in a computer game.

Joining the "Dark" project team is renown computer game producer Warren Spector. Spector, who will serve as executive producer and general manager of Looking Glass’ Austin office, produced Ultima Underworld and Ultima Underworld 2, as well as the science fiction adventure, System Shock. He joins Looking Glass after seven years with ORIGIN Systems, Inc.

"The ‘Dark’ project is one of the most exciting endeavors I’ve embarked on in years," said Spector. "Looking Glass has been waiting for the right time to get back into RPGs, and the time is now. We’ve revolutionized computer roleplaying games once before. Now we’re really going to blow people away."

Looking Glass Technologies, Inc. is a leading developer of entertainment and simulation software distinguished by its expertise in 3D technologies. Headquartered in Cambridge, MA, the talented team at Looking Glass has created some of the best-known, best-selling titles in the interactive entertainment industry, including the Ultima Underworld series, System Shock, Flight Unlimited and Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri.
I know it says it's an RPG here but even back then they were concentrating on a Thief for a main character, they just later removed the skill system (and fairly early on too judging by the dev diary.)

Also of note: "We pioneered immersive reality on the computer with our Underworld series." Immersive reality's what they were calling their design philosophy that week but it's really 'immersive simulation' as we know it now
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom