Game News J.E. Sawyer: Obsidian's Five Hard Lessons Of RPG Design

[Roguey]

I'm one of these people who always hoard potions/scrolls then forget about them. It makes games like SOZ much more fun, as I'm in effect playing as if these "easy mode items" weren't there. Not really an excuse for why they're there, but definitely an indication that, if you have enough willpower to not use them, the rest of the game is extremely well balanced.

I didn't use a single potion or scroll in SOZ, nor did I bother with anything on the overworld map. I did craft and buy a bunch of OP items, but hey, they were the ones who hyped the trading system and the new crafting system as big features. It's not "extremely well balanced" at all.

 

[Davaris]

Want an easy way to limit save scumming? Limit saving to towns/temples/inns or similar.

This would solve so many problems. In D&D based settings, this could mean saving is allowed only in areas safe for resting, including within dungeons in rooms with doors that can be magically sealed, or when you cast Mordekainen's Private Sanctum.

[reality kicks in] Alas, the casuals will never allow it.

Save points can be frustrating if they are spread too far apart and you can't finish a game because of one.

In the Codex Workshop someone mentioned a game that gives XP every time you fail a skill check. Its an easy way to encourage people to accept failure and keep playing.

 

[deus101]

Want an easy way to limit save scumming? Limit saving to towns/temples/inns or similar.

This would solve so many problems. In D&D based settings, this could mean saving is allowed only in areas safe for resting, including within dungeons in rooms with doors that can be magically sealed, or when you cast Mordekainen's Private Sanctum.

[reality kicks in] Alas, the casuals will never allow it.

Save points can be frustrating if they are spread too far apart and you can't finish a game because of one.

In the Codex Workshop someone mentioned a game that gives XP every time you fail a skill check. Its an easy way to encourage people to accept failure and keep playing.

Thats a neat idea actually... and lets be honest...people that reload for a single skill check are the ones that unhappy with how the narrative went.

 

[Excidium]

I think only allowing saving after a succesful "wait" is better than save points. You can save anywhere, but only if it's safe to sit and rest for a bit.

That wouldn't solve save scumming though.

But it helps to reduce the amount of savescumming without being annoying like save points. In this system, if you try to rest and save the game in a hostile area you'll be open for ambushes, thus not being able to save because you didn't finish resting and now is under attack. So if you want to save, either retreat to a safe place, clear the area or find some way to conceal your presence...

 

[Bloom]

Ok, I thought you meant something different

 

[almondblight]

Umm...didn't Eschalon II have a way to prevent save scumming by using some kind of persistant seed (I don't know what that means) ? And that's the second game from a part-time indie developer.


I like this:

"More relevantly, Icewind Dale and Temple of Elemental Evil required the player to create entire parties at the adventure's outset. "The games were tuned for D&D veterans. There are tons of ways you can make strategic errors. There are tons of ways you can make bad parties. What happens is 20 to 30 hours into the game, you can't go any further." "

"I said that we typically asked the player to make entire parties, which we did. They didn't have to, but they often did -- in part because the prospect of making you own party is a lot more appealing than using a pre-made set. "

I don't think I have to comment on the stupidity here.

 

[mondblut]

A shitty consoletard FPS dev tries to rationalize why he insists on calling his shitty consoletard FPSes "RPGs".

 

[PorkaMorka]

Using a persistent seed for the RNG only solves the most ridiculous kind of save scumming where you save right before an attack and then reload if you miss, repeat.

If you space out your saves just a little bit it is generally pretty easy to waste a few random numbers on unimportant actions to get a new random number for the important action and you can keep reloading and trying again until you roll that natural 20 or whatever you needed.

Save scumming is a problem that has pretty much already been solved... by handheld console RPGs. Limited permanent saves (only in town, only between maps, whatever) but the ability to "suspend" the game at any time. The suspend function saves your progress, but is deleted when you load again, so you can't scum using the suspend saves.

Thus you can quit playing whenever you want without losing progress, but the developers can control exactly when you get to save and load, thus preventing save loading from trivializing the game as it so often does.

See for Etrian Odyssey 3 for an example of this save system. (no comment about the other aspects of the game)

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Gambling was the free money skill. It allowed you to buy pretty much all the decent weapons a lot earlier than you otherwise would be able to, which made things easier. Also useful if you're going Big Guns and need lots of ammo. Otherwise you had to face all those random encounters, kill everything and go through the kill / loot / sell process. Barter was semi-useful along the same lines but less so. Outdoorsman allows you to avoid random encounters which is fairly useful if you're a non-combat character. So sure, if you're running through and shooting everything than they're useless but that's the point. If you're NOT running through shooting everything, they become useful. It's that whole "role-playing" thing.

And this is what, Fallout or some random game you made up in your head? I NEVER heard anyone say that outdoorsman was useful, or that the random encounters were two difficult. I've never heard of anyone having money problems. The fact is the only time I ever found myself short on ammunition was very early in the game, and the only time I found myself pinched for caps was...eh...never? Keep in mind I wasn't running through random encounters for loot or trying at all. I just never found it an issue.

Because you've likely never played in the way that would make them useful. It sounds like your typical Fallout run-through is: Tag all the weapon skills and shoot everything that moves. That play-through style is perfectly fine but if you aren't planning on shooting everything, than the other skills have uses. Try playing it without any weapon skills and see how you go for money and see how many random encounters you want to go through before deciding avoiding them might be an idea (Actually in Fallout 2 avoiding the god-damned boring encounters was beneficial for sanity reasons). Though you're right that Outdoorsman in the original Fallout is less useful.

I suppose it could have happened if say...the Glow and the Gun Runners and the Mutant Patrols didn't give you more ammo than you could handle, but again, we're talking about Fallout, not a theoretical game you made up in your head.

Only if you had the money and could take on the Mutant Patrols, which if you're doing that, means you're playing the classic fighter character (the one who never has any problems because developers never nerf them like they do everything else).

Yes, mostly useless save for a way to complete the game without combat and get the most powerful armour in the game that makes you virtually immune to everything.

Immune to everything? Mutants can (and do) one hit kill you even with power armor. It gives you a lot more defensive capability, granted, but how useful is it if you're not a fighter? You're not going to want the enemy take more than one hit at you (less, you should be hiding from them) if you're not going to fight them.

Rare critical hits in Power Armour, sure. You try taking one of their average hits without Power Armour and see how you go. Oh, you're dead. Power Armour sure is handy innit?

Yes, mostly useless. That's like saying your Plasma Rifle and Energy Weapons skill is mostly useless because you really only need to pull it out for those few times you face the really tough enemies - every other time you just make do with the Sniper Rifle.

I'm saying it's mostly useless because there are about only three (I think...?) places in the whole game where it's useful at all

Much the same can be said about the combat skills. Ever tried a pacifist run? You can avoid most of the combat encounters. I guess that makes the combat skills "mostly useless" too. As I said, it depends on your play-style. If you intend to shoot everything you meet and hoarde the XP from doing so, then yes, you will have no trouble what-so-ever and will find most other things useless. Once you take combat out though, the game becomes much harder and those "useless" skills suddenly become vitally important to your long-term survival (unless you intend to save / reload gimp the game at literally everything you try to do).

(hence the mostly, not completely), and of those places, you only really need the skill to be around 1/3 leveled up (less with tools), and even if you didn't meet that threshold, the game would give you books to up your repair skill.

Books are pretty expensive at a few thousand caps a pop. If you're not a combat character who's shooting and looting everything, a money skill is useful for those (in fact even if you are shooting everything, a money skill is very handy early on the game to get the best stuff a lot easier. With enough cash you can walk right into the Gun Runners and buy all the leet shit from day one, ignoring Small Guns completely - but you *always* tag Small Guns, right?).

Intelligence is also required to read books - which if you're playing a dumb character removes them as an option completely.

I mean, we are talking about playing different roles here and experiencing things in the game you wouldn't otherwise experience because you need certain character builds to get them. But a lot of it does go to my point that nobody -EVER- nerfs the fighter class.

And you could get the power armor other ways if you wanted it,

You can get Power Armor from the Brotherhood's store room which means facing what is probably one of the toughest combat encounters in the game. Once again, if you're a combat character sure - go and knock yourself out and wipe out the Brotherhood. If you don't want to do that (you know, role-playing and all, wanting to help the good guys and such, not being a bad-ass mofo with a big gun) then that option is not viable.

To get the Power Armor that needs to be repaired, you need the part from Rhombus - which means sneaking. It's unfortunate the game is broken at this point and you can game the combat system by activating and deactiving it to get the part. According to per's Guide, you ideally need at least 75% Repair (if you fail the first check) and I agree that books make that stupidly easy to get (again assuming you have the money to buy them which you either get killing and looting everything in sight or with some. other. skill. like. gambling.).

As I've said, the save / reload to pass a check is a legitimate issue Bishop raises (which technically makes any skill completely useless as if you reload often enough, you can get passed anything).

and could go throw the red force fields if you wanted (really, all you would need would be some stimpacks).

The majority of stimpaks came in combat encounters from enemies. Again, if you're not killing things and are avoiding random encounters, then you need money to buy those (or some other way to acquire them from discerning passers-by).

And that's compared to energy weapons where you're using it all the time, every point up until 150 or 175 (I think...) is useful, and here's no way you can possibly raise it up that high without adding skill points?

Sure, if you're playing an Energy Weapons character. But again, try and play without combat.

It's pretty good for being able to take the hits as a non-combat character (who would have low strength and endurance and thus less HP). And if you are a combat character and you really want that awesome armour, you had to no choice but to get repair.

No, you could do that rescue quest and get it too. And like I said, with tools and the books you don't really have to put almost any investment into the skill. If you tagged repair, it would be a waste, in all honesty.

"You'll only be offered the Powered Armor if your karma is 16 or higher."[1]

Mind you that's not really a problem most of the time. A lot of the skill and various other requirements in Fallout are shockingly low. Fallout 2 makes an effort to beef a lot of them up and actually try to add really useful reasons to get high other skills.

It's true that books ruined most of the skills.

The problem with them was that they were given to you when you only needed a very low repair skill, along with tools, and that these were the ONLY times repair was useful. It's almost like the developers were trying to say to you "don't worry if you didn't put any points in this skill, you didn't really need to." Well, actually, they were saying that. I usually kept about 20 extra points around, and threw an extra 10 or 15 in repair when I got to the glow or the power armor. When that's all that's needed to get the full benefits of the skill, there's something wrong.

Yes, I agree. The combat skills have benefits right up to their 200 max (bonus chance for crits and such) where-as the other skills got to a point where you didn't need much more than you could get with books (expecting perhaps the NPC robot in Fallout 2 which needed 120% Science). That's a problem with the skill system though. The answer isn't to remove those skills, it's to design a better skill system.

But mind you, that is an extra 10 or 20 points you put into those skills which you could've used to make yourself more awesome at combat. The fact is, that's you deciding to play the part of an all-rounder (and save / reload when the checks fail). If you have low INT, than those 10 or 20 points are much more valuable too - as you don't get so many skill points at every level up.

Sneak is good "if you want to play that way" which given this is an RPG, again, is the whole point. Outdoorsman, Lockpicking and Stealing all fall into the same box. 9 / 10.

Stealth can be useful because it can open up another playing style. I've never heard anyone say that outdoorsman or stealing was useful, not even for a certain play style. I mean, really. Have you ever heard anyone say "well, my stealth character is pretty good, but I forgot to raise outdoorsman!" ? You'd have to run from a few less random encounters, I guess. Again, I've NEVER heard anyone say that the random encounters were keeping them from progressing.

Question: What was your average Outdoorsman skill? Did you ever raise it beyond it's default starting level? If the answer is yes (highly likely, given it affected the speed of your travel on the world map and you crawled like a slug without it), then how can you argue the skill is useless? And again, even 10 or 20 points (which is actually a fair few points under the Fallout system) is much more meaningful with low INT and / or a non-combat character (who's not levelling up as much and doesn't get as many skill points).

In part this raises an issue about balance in RPGs in general. By the end of it, most characters are God-like characters where nothing stands in their way. How you balance it throughout the entire game so that each role has some viable path is always a challenge.

As for stealing...it doesn't do much besides give you more stuff, no? As I said before, you shouldn't be hurting for any stuff save for the very beginning of the game. If you are a non-combat character, you need even less.

Actually if you're non-combat, you need more to sell (if you don't have a money skill) and with steal, you can just steal most things you need from the shops (I think - I think Fallout 2 was the one where shop-stealing was nerfed) - pretty much making money entirely mute and saving the whole "loot everything" process. Besides, ever used "steal" to set and plant explosives on everyone in town then stand back and watch as they blow up? That's some pretty fun shit right there.

Science gives us a way to end the game with a lower speech skill and opens up an entire storyline.

And that's pretty much all it does, no?

Well gosh, if gaining access to one of the better endings of the game doesn't mean shit to you, then no. Go ahead and just kill everything and don't give a shit. But golly, if you want to experience something else a bit different, then try it sometime.

I mean, how many science checks are there in the game, two? Three? Like repair, do you get anything from raising the skill over 100?

In the original Fallout, no - Science doesn't need to be raised above 100 and you can get there with books which I accept is a horrible, horrible flaw and again goes to my issue about developers making the fighter character able to get passed anything. It's also true that a lot of that that role-playing option choice-bullshit at the start is completely pointless unless you really ARE trying to play a specific role and have a bit of fun with it (which is where Fallout really shines). Not to mention the drugs which gave you one-off short-term boosts to any stat checks which again, could get you passed most things without much effort.

... but all of that aside and assuming we've got the books and the drugs and what-not, science is used (in the original Fallout):
- Random computers for additional XP.
- Various speech options that give additional XP (minor quest solutions).
- The Glow (pretty much everything there).
- Hacking various computers to gain additional story information.
- To understand Vree's Holodisk (and open up a speech option that allows you to complete the game).
- To self-destruct the Military Base (hack in without the pass code).
- To set-off the Nuclear Weapon underneath the Cathedral (and thus complete the game - though I'm not sure what the actual check is here. From memory I think repair is involved too).

The simple truth is, have you ever played Fallout without raising your Science? I bet you haven't because you'd have missed about half the game's main storyline.

The best way to test it is to not raise those other skills at all. Keep Outdoorsman down in the toilet. Don't read any books that raise it. Keep Science and Repair low. Ignore all books and options to increase them. Focus entirely on your combat skills and see how much of the game becomes frustrating (constant save / reload to get passed skill checks) and how much you miss out on. Sure, you can finish the game (because the fighter class can ALWAYS finish the game) but you'll miss an awful lot and a lot of the game will become a frustrating mess. There will be quests you won't be able to complete satisfactorily (without any Repair, those Ghouls in the Necropolis are goners), entire quest lines you'll simply miss out on (Vree's Holodisk) and areas you just won't be able to access at all (stuff in The Glow and other areas).

Gambling I'd argue is semi-useful again "if you want to play that way" as it is a nice money skill for non-combat characters. 13 / 14

Which they'll then spend on all those non-combat things to buy? Again, this isn't a theoretical game we're talking about, it's Fallout. Non-combat characters will have plenty of excess cash from not needing to buy any weapons, and even more since they can sell all the stuff they find.

Stimpaks and books. And if you're non-combat (without steal), you don't find a lot to sell. The best loot items are weapons from dead enemies.

That leaves First Aid and Doctor, both of which I accept are completely useless (there are so many Stimpaks in Fallout it's not like health-care is an actual issue). Again this is a case of "adding in something to make it easy for the fighter". The best way around that would be to remove Stimpaks but then that would mean re-balancing the entire combat system. 13 / 16.

Re-balance? It was balanced to begin with?

What was unbalanced about it? Note I'm talking about re-balancing Doctor / First-Aid and Stimpaks, so if all you can mention is "getting into combat and just chugging Stimpaks" you lose because that's what I'm talking about.

Sneak: I never played a stealth character

That right there is your problem. You've never played Fallout doing anything but running and gunning - and reloading every time you failed a skill check - have you? It's no surprise then that you think every other skill is useless.

Make the skills interesting, and make non-combat skills useful for more than just skill checks.

Yeah, this is a problem with the non-combat skills. It seems easy to design a combat system where people miss from time to time and it's accepted - and putting that one extra point always has some benefit with even just a 1% extra chance to hit or bonus to criticals. But all the other skills are black and white (which is a problem Bishop mentions). If your traps is too low and you encounter a trap, then traps is considered useless. If there's a minimum level, then why increase the skill above that point? If you can increase the skill through some other means than the skill system (such as with books), then why waste skill points in it? If you can bypass the traps easily (by just walking through them) then why even bother with a traps skill at all?

It all goes to the issue of poor game design. I think developers add these things in "because it sounds cool" without actually going through the process of what's required to make them cool - where-as they'll spend hours perfecting the combat system. They then add in "escape clauses" probably because some dumb tester picked the fighter class and then whined that they couldn't get passed the trapped dungeon... or they think "Gosh, if I don't have traps, I better add in another option for the non-traps people to bypass this simply and easily!! Aren't I clever?" but they NEVER do the same thing to the fighter ("If I'm a pacifist, how will I get passed this 'Frank Horrigan' forced combat encounter?"). Funny thing is, I think this is the problem Bishops' talking about. If you ignore fighting and actually try to use the other skills, you find that they're completely useless and you can't complete the game. His answer seems to be to remove those skills and just have more action-based fighting.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

passed

PAST DAMMIT DID YOU GET THIS HORRID PREDILECTION FROM PROV

 

[Clockwork Knight]

- To set-off the Nuclear Weapon underneath the Cathedral (and thus complete the game - though I'm not sure what the actual check is here. From memory I think repair is involved too).

By opening a lot of locked doors you can take the elevator on the left down to level 4 where there's nothing but an atom bomb. Kewl. To set it off, use Science (70% needed), Lockpick (70% Repair needed, though the skill check is for Lockpick) or the Key from the Military Base on the console

 

[MMXI]

Using a persistent seed for the RNG only solves the most ridiculous kind of save scumming where you save right before an attack and then reload if you miss, repeat.

If you space out your saves just a little bit it is generally pretty easy to waste a few random numbers on unimportant actions to get a new random number for the important action and you can keep reloading and trying again until you roll that natural 20 or whatever you needed.

Save scumming is a problem that has pretty much already been solved... by handheld console RPGs. Limited permanent saves (only in town, only between maps, whatever) but the ability to "suspend" the game at any time. The suspend function saves your progress, but is deleted when you load again, so you can't scum using the suspend saves.

Thus you can quit playing whenever you want without losing progress, but the developers can control exactly when you get to save and load, thus preventing save loading from trivializing the game as it so often does.

See for Etrian Odyssey 3 for an example of this save system. (no comment about the other aspects of the game)

Yep. Sort of what I was saying but with a rogue-like saving feature on top to allow for quitting the game at any time. That's all that needs to be done. Simple solution to an almost non-problem. Not sure how this J.E. Sawyer managed to get a job in the industry.

 

[almondblight]

Because you've likely never played in the way that would make them useful. It sounds like your typical Fallout run-through is: Tag all the weapon skills and shoot everything that moves.

Nope. The first time I played it I tagged Energy Weapons, Big Guns, and Speech, and then raised repair/science up when I ran into them in the game.

Though you're right that Outdoorsman in the original Fallout is less useful.

Well, I'm only talking about Fallout here, since I found Fallout 2 incredibly boring and silly, and never could bring myself to even complete it once. Fallout I went through five times, though.

Only if you had the money and could take on the Mutant Patrols, which if you're doing that, means you're playing the classic fighter character (the one who never has any problems because developers never nerf them like they do everything else).

Well, yes, we were talking about fighter characters:

It allowed you to buy pretty much all the decent weapons a lot earlier than you otherwise would be able to, which made things easier. Also useful if you're going Big Guns and need lots of ammo.

Rare critical hits in Power Armour, sure. You try taking one of their average hits without Power Armour and see how you go. Oh, you're dead. Power Armour sure is handy innit?

I seem to remember that brotherhood armor they giving you being pretty decent...? But anyway, my point remains. If you are playing a character that's actively avoiding combat, how important is armor? Are you getting it so you can survive those rare random encounters outside? If you can (and they're pretty rare, the only place I can think of them being a problem is around the base), then why use outdoorsman?

Much the same can be said about the combat skills. Ever tried a pacifist run? You can avoid most of the combat encounters. I guess that makes the combat skills "mostly useless" too. As I said, it depends on your play-style. If you intend to shoot everything you meet and hoarde the XP from doing so, then yes, you will have no trouble what-so-ever and will find most other things useless.

What are you talking about? If I have combat skills, I can use them everywhere. I mean, I think the only place I think they weren't useful were the brotherhood base (I think even there there's an option if your hand to hand combat is decent). Compare that to science, which is only useful in a handful of places, and again, you only need a low level in it.

Books are pretty expensive at a few thousand caps a pop. If you're not a combat character who's shooting and looting everything, a money skill is useful for those (in fact even if you are shooting everything, a money skill is very handy early on the game to get the best stuff a lot easier. With enough cash you can walk right into the Gun Runners and buy all the leet shit from day one, ignoring Small Guns completely - but you *always* tag Small Guns, right?).

I never tag small guns, since Ian and Tycho and the SMG are enough for the first part of the game. Again, sure, you can buy the stuff from the Gun Runners, but that's only useful if you are a fighting character, in which case, you have enough cash and weapons. Books...how are you going to need thousands of caps on those? they only raise the skill up to like 91% or something, and if you are playing a non-combat character who tagged repair, outdoorsman, science, etc., those skills should be higher.

Again, you're acting like this is a theoretical game you're making up in your head.

Intelligence is also required to read books - which if you're playing a dumb character removes them as an option completely.

As a stat...yes. But did I ever say that Intelligence was a useless stat? I usually had mine pretty high.

I mean, we are talking about playing different roles here and experiencing things in the game you wouldn't otherwise experience because you need certain character builds to get them. But a lot of it does go to my point that nobody -EVER- nerfs the fighter class.

But that's the problem. 97% of the game is available to people that for the most part ignore the other skills, just read the books they come across, and then raise the stat an extra 10 or 20 points when they run into the few checks in the game that need it at 80% or whatever. Even with that perk that gives you extra stats and fewer skill points, I never ran into any problem with the amount of skill points I had. I usually had a bunch of extra ones just sitting around, because I couldn't think of any use for them.

To get the Power Armor that needs to be repaired, you need the part from Rhombus - which means sneaking.

I _never_ put any points into sneaking, and never had a problem with this.

According to per's Guide[/url], you ideally need at least 75% Repair (if you fail the first check) and I agree that books make that stupidly easy to get (again assuming you have the money to buy them which you either get killing and looting everything in sight or with some. other. skill. like. gambling.).

Yes, but they GIVE YOU THE BOOKS when you have to repair it. "Hey, you need a decent repair skill for this, don't worry if you ignored it, just read these books." I think there's also a tool lying around there? I don't remember.

The equivalent to energy weapons would be if there were two fixed (you couldn't take them with you, had to use them right there) energy weapons in the entire game, and you could only use the skill with those weapons. And you could get full benefits with a 75% energy skill. And they left an energy weapons skill book lying on the seat. And they had a way to bypass that area if you were a sneaking character. If the game was set up like that, then yeah, I'd say energy weapons were useless too.

I remember sneak had a problem like this too. In the Cathedral, I didn't put any points into sneak, but could still dress up in a robe and sneak around (and again, I think the Stealthboy negated a lot of the benefits).

As I've said, the save / reload to pass a check is a legitimate issue Bishop raises (which technically makes any skill completely useless as if you reload often enough, you can get passed anything).

I barely saved/reloaded. If I remember right, you could just keep hitting repair on the armor until it worked.

The majority of stimpaks came in combat encounters from enemies. Again, if you're not killing things and are avoiding random encounters, then you need money to buy those (or some other way to acquire them from discerning passers-by).

Why? If you're avoiding combat, how many times are you going to be using them? For the red force fields, OK, but other than that you should be avoiding things, so you shouldn't need nearly as much as a non-combat character.

Mind you that's not really a problem most of the time. A lot of the skill and various other requirements in Fallout are shockingly low.

Alright, then perhaps we're just arguing about semantics.

Yes, I agree. The combat skills have benefits right up to their 200 max (bonus chance for crits and such) where-as the other skills got to a point where you didn't need much more than you could get with books (expecting perhaps the NPC robot in Fallout 2 which needed 120% Science). That's a problem with the skill system though. The answer isn't to remove those skills, it's to design a better skill system.

But mind you, that is an extra 10 or 20 points you put into those skills which you could've used to make yourself more awesome at combat. The fact is, that's you deciding to play the part of an all-rounder (and save / reload when the checks fail). If you have low INT, than those 10 or 20 points are much more valuable too - as you don't get so many skill points at every level up.

The thing is, at ~150% or so (maybe less) I'm getting 95% eyeshots with my turbo charged plasma rifle (or super sledgehammer). At speech around ~150% (maybe less), I was having no problems smooth talking my way through things that could be smooth talked. Even with lowered skill points from the perk that adds the stats, I was going around with tons of unused points.

Question: What was your average Outdoorsman skill? Did you ever raise it beyond it's default starting level? If the answer is yes (highly likely, given it affected the speed of your travel on the world map and you crawled like a slug without it), then how can you argue the skill is useless? And again, even 10 or 20 points (which is actually a fair few points under the Fallout system) is much more meaningful with low INT and / or a non-combat character (who's not levelling up as much and doesn't get as many skill points).

I _never_ raised outdoorsman, and _never_ had any problems travelling or running into random encounters. The only long treks I can really think of are to the Glow, the military base, and maybe Shady Sands to Junktown. Keep in mind that the skill also gets raised by Tycho and books, though again, to be honest, I never noticed a difference, because travel and random encounters were never a problem for me.

Well gosh, if gaining access to one of the better endings of the game doesn't mean shit to you, then no. Go ahead and just kill everything and don't give a shit. But golly, if you want to experience something else a bit different, then try it sometime.

Eh, I think this guy summer if up well:

Skills in Fallout weren't useless, they were just gimmicky because of their extremely limited range of uses.

When you take a skill called "Repair" in a post-apocalyptic world with broken shit everywhere you expect it to be a constantly useful skill. Instead, you only need it once or twice.

I mean, why not just call it "open alternate ending skill...this skill, if raised to 80%, opens up an alternate ending!" I'm not saying the alternate ending it opens up isn't nice, I'm saying that the skill does very little outside of that, so having one important check near the end of the game isn't really great.

In the original Fallout, no - Science doesn't need to be raised above 100 and you can get there with books which I accept is a horrible, horrible flaw and again goes to my issue about developers making the fighter character able to get passed anything. It's also true that a lot of that that role-playing option choice-bullshit at the start is completely pointless unless you really ARE trying to play a specific role and have a bit of fun with it (which is where Fallout really shines). Not to mention the drugs which gave you one-off short-term boosts to any stat checks which again, could get you passed most things without much effort.

OK, so we...agree.

The simple truth is, have you ever played Fallout without raising your Science? I bet you haven't because you'd have missed about half the game's main storyline.

Eh, I think I usually throw in an extra 10 or 15 points when I get to the Glow if I don't meet the skill checks, and that's about it.

The best way to test it is to not raise those other skills at all. Keep Outdoorsman down in the toilet. Don't read any books that raise it. Keep Science and Repair low. Ignore all books and options to increase them. Focus entirely on your combat skills and see how much of the game becomes frustrating (constant save / reload to get passed skill checks) and how much you miss out on.

Outdoorsman, like I said, I never raise because I never had any issues with random encounters or travelling even when it was low (which is why I called it useless...though if you want, I can say "a less useful skill"). It might have been useful if, say, they game didn't always tell you where to go, or if the random encounters or environmental issues were something more of a concern. But that would be a different game.

Science and Repair I call mostly useless, because in the couple places in the game where they are actually checked, the check is low and the game gives you ways to raise them. Again, see my comparison to what this would be like with energy weapons.

Sure, you can finish the game (because the fighter class can ALWAYS finish the game) but you'll miss an awful lot and a lot of the game will become a frustrating mess. There will be quests you won't be able to complete satisfactorily (without any Repair, those Ghouls in the Necropolis are goners), entire quest lines you'll simply miss out on (Vree's Holodisk) and areas you just won't be able to access at all (stuff in The Glow and other areas).

But the thing is, almost all of that I could do with basically neglecting repair until it was needed, then throwing a few extra points into it if I really had to. Then after that I mostly ignored repair again, and didn't miss much.

Stimpaks and books. And if you're non-combat (without steal), you don't find a lot to sell. The best loot items are weapons from dead enemies.

Stimpaks for all those times you avoid combat? Books to raise up repair or outdoorsman, which would mean you wouldn't have to invest in them?

What was unbalanced about it? Note I'm talking about re-balancing Doctor / First-Aid and Stimpaks, so if all you can mention is "getting into combat and just chugging Stimpaks" you lose because that's what I'm talking about.

I "lose"? Damn it, I thought I was going to "win".

That right there is your problem. You've never played Fallout doing anything but running and gunning - and reloading every time you failed a skill check - have you? It's no surprise then that you think every other skill is useless.

When was the last time you played Fallout? You don't have to reload for failing skill checks (I guess on traps, it helps). Just try again. Raise the skill by 5%, try again. Skill to low? Wash, rinse, repeat. But then again. The game knows it might be too low, and gives you a book.

And as I mentioned I could do steal without a stealth character, like using the robe in the cathedral. It's not that I've "never played Fallout doing anything but running and gunning" that I think the other skills are useless. It's that I played the game doing everything without investing almost any points into the other skills that I think the skills are mostly useless (or, eh, perhaps I should say "it's useless to put much investment in them" if you prefer"). When I'm going through a game doing the science and repair solutions, but my combat skills are raised twice as high - that's a problem.

Like I said, I've gone through the game five times and have finished every quest - and my combat skills were always the skills that were raised the highest, even when I was going with non-combat solutions.

Yeah, this is a problem with the non-combat skills. It seems easy to design a combat system where people miss from time to time and it's accepted - and putting that one extra point always has some benefit with even just a 1% extra chance to hit or bonus to criticals. But all the other skills are black and white (which is a problem Bishop mentions). If your traps is too low and you encounter a trap, then traps is considered useless. If there's a minimum level, then why increase the skill above that point? If you can increase the skill through some other means than the skill system (such as with books), then why waste skill points in it? If you can bypass the traps easily (by just walking through them) then why even bother with a traps skill at all?

Another problem with games that use certain checks is that they make the checks scale with the gameplay, which just screws things up. So a few points in guns might mean you move from 65% -> 75% chance to hit early in the game, but if you don't raise it, it responds to a shift from 10% -> 20% chance to hit. But if there are no low level speech checks later in the game, that means that speech becomes an all or nothing skill...if you aren't able to make that threshold, then all early points invested in it are basically useless.

It all goes to the issue of poor game design. I think developers add these things in "because it sounds cool" without actually going through the process of what's required to make them cool - where-as they'll spend hours perfecting the combat system. They then add in "escape clauses" probably because some dumb tester picked the fighter class and then whined that they couldn't get passed the trapped dungeon... or they think "Gosh, if I don't have traps, I better add in another option for the non-traps people to bypass this simply and easily!! Aren't I clever?" but they NEVER do the same thing to the fighter ("If I'm a pacifist, how will I get passed this 'Frank Horrigan' forced combat encounter?"). Funny thing is, I think this is the problem Bishops' talking about. If you ignore fighting and actually try to use the other skills, you find that they're completely useless and you can't complete the game. His answer seems to be to remove those skills and just have more action-based fighting.

I think Deus Ex handled this pretty well (note: I only played halfway through). I always felt like lock picking or hacking was useful in the game, and those skills could be used often. The thing is, what is a repairman/scientist going to be doing in Fallout outside of the Glow and a couple places in the Brotherhood/Military Base? A fighter is going to be using his skills all the time, a repairman, not so much (and as someone pointed out, this is in a game with broken junk everywhere).

I mean, hell, if I remember right upgrading your power armor and plasma rifle didn't require any science or repair checks. I mean, hell, it's like crafting being a skill and the best crafted items being bought buy a merchant.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Want an easy way to limit save scumming? Limit saving to towns/temples/inns or similar.

This would solve so many problems. In D&D based settings, this could mean saving is allowed only in areas safe for resting, including within dungeons in rooms with doors that can be magically sealed, or when you cast Mordekainen's Private Sanctum.

[reality kicks in] Alas, the casuals will never allow it.

Save only in the guild.

Save at the Inn only.

and so on...

However, there is a better system;

Normal saves (that most people here would know of) only at special areas (in Dark Heart, this means sanctuaries), while you can still save anywhere...but it is a save and quit. Doesn't work if you try turning off the game and restarting. Perfect for the busy person (adult with a life) that cannot count on having several hours in a row and not have a save option.

I find it amusing that people bring this system up like it is new. Everything old is new again.

 

[Regdar]

Want an easy way to limit save scumming? Limit saving to towns/temples/inns or similar.

This would solve so many problems. In D&D based settings, this could mean saving is allowed only in areas safe for resting, including within dungeons in rooms with doors that can be magically sealed, or when you cast Mordekainen's Private Sanctum.

[reality kicks in] Alas, the casuals will never allow it.

Save points can be frustrating if they are spread too far apart and you can't finish a game because of one.

In the Codex Workshop someone mentioned a game that gives XP every time you fail a skill check. Its an easy way to encourage people to accept failure and keep playing.

I don't understand what you mean by "can't finish the game because of one".

It's simpe - in a D&D based setting, for example, you can only save when the "tent" icon is green - as in it is safe to rest here for 8 hours. Imagine having to go through a four-level dungeon that has two rooms where you can rest. Say you're playing for the first time, and you meet an NPC who offers to pay him a reasonable amount of money for him to give you some information, or, if you refuse to pay, he and his mates will rape you. Now, if you just quicksaved 2 minutes earlier, the deal is a no-brainer: you get the info, reload, and kill the motherfucker for experience.

Now, imagine if the last time you saved was 10, 15 or even 30 minutes ago. You will actually be forced to make that choice - whether or not to pay the nice man for his services - from an RP standpoint (a concept all but unheard of in today's games). It's fucking amazing and I personally don't see any problems with it at all.

I truly believe something simple like this could work. It would also piss off a *lot* of people, so I doubt it will ever be done.

 

[Shannow]

then - than
passed - past
mute - moot

Yeah, your spelling sucks, but still: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FucbvoFFy0

 

[Davaris]

I don't understand what you mean by "can't finish the game because of one".
.

If they spread them too far apart in a difficult area and you have to try the same area again and again and keep getting killed, it is not fun at all.

Save points are a mechanic to increase tension in shooters and survival games, they were never meant to prevent save scumming.

The downside as I pointed out, is if the designer misjudges the positioning of just one save point, somewhere in the game, the game is broken.

 

[Regdar]

I don't understand what you mean by "can't finish the game because of one".
.

If they spread them too far apart in a difficult area and you have to try the same area again and again and keep getting killed, it is not fun at all.

Save points are a mechanic to increase tension in shooters and survival games, they were never meant to prevent save scumming.

The downside as I pointed out, is if the designer misjudges the positioning of just one save point, somewhere in the game, the game is broken.

Isn't this how JRPGs are/have been though? The FF series most prominently, perhaps, and those games really like to punish you for bad party/skill choices (I'm thinking before FF7).

Plus, it's not like you get one chance to save per dungeon and that's it. I mean, you can return to the room where you saved before and save again after you cleared out the trash before the Big Bad.

Returning to my previous example, let's say the information offered to you by the NPC is the location of a hidden door to an armory with magic items, but the key is held by a tough enemy lieutenant. In a quicksave setting, this information would have worth ONLY if it was a actually a trigger for spawning the key on the lieutenant or making the hidden door appear. In all other cases, you either don't need it since finding the key will automatically make you aware of the existence of the door, and thus prompt you to find it, or, as I've said, you could get the information from the NPC, reload and kill him for XP and loot. Anything else is LARPing.

And you could spice it up some more. Let's say the NPC who offers you the deal is acting extremely shifty, even going so far as to say he'd kill to get access to the armory. You buy the information from him and he and his men go away, but after you confront and kill the lieutenant and loot the key, he suddenly appears with even more men and demand that you hand it over. There would likely be some persuasion options here, but they are irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is with quicksave, you just reload and make sure to conserve a fireball or two to deal with the traitorous NPC after you kill the lieutenant. With save points, you *will* think twice before attacking him - which is precisely what the developer wanted you to do - and in the end will probably give up the key (unless you're some kind of autismfag who will willingly replay 20 minutes of the game for a more favorable outcome to a side quest).

It also brings up a question of replay value. If you can see one outcome of a quest, then quickload and experience another, and then choose the one you like better, then by the end of one playthrough you will have seen >80% of what the game has to offer, either completely eliminating the desire for future playthroughs, or making them extremely tedious.

 

[Davaris]

Sure you can have save points in an RPG, but just be aware what their effect will be and that should impact how the game is designed.

As for forcing the player to do things, it doesn't work as it upsets them more than anything. You are better off giving them the choice to do what they like, but offer them enticements for doing things the right way. Use the carrot not the stick, games are supposed to be enjoyable.

 

[waywardOne]

Didn't Disintegrate destroy carried items in the IE games?

Yes, but not specific quest items. There's a mod (OF COURSE) that allows item drops for disintegrated creatures now.

 

[Davaris]

@Regdar

Another way to do those save points while still giving the player a choice to play how they want, is to designate certain areas bonus zones, where if you go through them all the way, without saving you get bonus XP.

 

[Regdar]

Sure you can have save points in an RPG, but just be aware what their effect will be and that should impact how the game is designed.

As for forcing the player to do things, it doesn't work as it upsets them more than anything.

Sadly. Which is why I said started off by saying it would never be allowed.

Although, MCA did express his frustration at munchkins, saying a piece of him died inside every time someone fired through his dialogues impatiently waiting for a chance to kill something, and even going so far as to propose a dialogue system where you had to pay attention and revisit certain dialogue trees when new information became available, effectively getting rid of the "I-Win" [speech] option in dialogues. It's a step in that direction, I think, forcing players to do what the developer (DM) wants them to.

I personally don't see anything wrong with it, although every day it seems I see someone posting "LOL WTF IZ DIS NERDSHIT NUMBERS IN MAH GAEM. IN 1X PLAYA I WANNA BE WHOEVER I WANT, PLAY HOWEVER I WANT. SKYRIM IZ GUNNA BE DA BESTTTT".

Another way to do those save points while still giving the player a choice to play how they want, is to designate certain areas bonus zones, where if you go through them all the way, without saving you get bonus XP.

Sounds too arcade-ey. :/ Although, if done right it could be a nice compromise in case of a deal-breaker.

Another way is to impose gold and experience penalties for saving (resting) in dungeons more than once. Again, with the D&D example, you can't rest in room with a door that isn't magically sealed or unless you cast private sanctum or a similar spell. Those spells can have costly material components, and if you game's economy doesn't inflate towards the endgame like it usually does, it can be a great deterrent to resting after every encounter (after wasting all your sorcerer's fireballs for mopping up single targets).

 

[Tsorevitch]

I don't understand what you mean by "can't finish the game because of one".
.

If they spread them too far apart in a difficult area and you have to try the same area again and again and keep getting killed, it is not fun at all.

Save points are a mechanic to increase tension in shooters and survival games, they were never meant to prevent save scumming.

The downside as I pointed out, is if the designer misjudges the positioning of just one save point, somewhere in the game, the game is broken.

There can be autosaves for each major combat. I can remove frustration from dying and having to replay last 30-40 minutes.

 

[Tramboi]

Ishar was a so-so game but it made you pay gold for saving.
This is quite a ok idea, combined with the save-and-quit option, of course.

 

[almondblight]

Using a persistent seed for the RNG only solves the most ridiculous kind of save scumming where you save right before an attack and then reload if you miss, repeat.

If you space out your saves just a little bit it is generally pretty easy to waste a few random numbers on unimportant actions to get a new random number for the important action and you can keep reloading and trying again until you roll that natural 20 or whatever you needed.

Well, it should be simple. The amount you have in some skill increases the probability of a "good" hit. Simply have all the traps/locks/doors in a hub make some roll based on their difficult that shows the threshold for them, but make the display still display percentages.

For example, let's say that at 100 in lock-picking, you have a 20% chance of opening the door. Instead of waiting until you get to the lock to roll the percentage, have the lock make a roll (with everything else) as soon as the area is entered for the first time, where the lock has a 20% chance of rolling a score that will allow 100 and below to enter it. Roll all of these numbers before a character enters an area, and save it. If the area is large (and it should be), no sane player is going to savescum, since it would mean going through one hour or more of gameplay, and each time ALL the locks/traps/etc. would be rolled, so you'd have no idea if you got an overall better score or not without going through the area twice and adding everything up.

Really, I think that would solve the problem quite simply.

...to propose a dialogue system where you had to pay attention and revisit certain dialogue trees when new information became available, effectively getting rid of the "I-Win" [speech] option in dialogues. It's a step in that direction, I think, forcing players to do what the developer (DM) wants them to.

You could get rid of those stupid "I win [speech]" options (and they are stupid) by going back and making the player type in words. Of course, no one wants to do that these days because they think it's too much work. But remember, dialogue trees are already dumbed down to begin with.