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1eyedking Japanese games are shit. Here's why.

1eyedking

Erudite
Joined
Dec 10, 2007
Messages
3,591
Location
Argentina
Can't get a more intense stare than this:

michel_david_head.jpg


It conveys both fear and shrewd determination. Human expression of a most sublime form. Michelangelo simply was...ah, the David never ceases to amaze me.

For fuck's sake, the face looks almost hand-painted, complete with sfumatos and all. No Asian artist ever reached that level of perfection, or something along the lines of Repin or Jacques-Louis David, for that matter.

Lyric Suite said:
From Jacques-Louis David i tend to like his classical portraits more then i like his neoclassical stuff, which personally i find rather artificial, except for some of his later works i guess.
It may seem artificial but only because it's neoclassical. Purity of form was paramount in that school, and David was a master at it.

Repin, on the other hand, had much more freedom - which of course made his works lose any kind of formal merit instantly. He was very talented in capturing realistic moments in a very emotional way, though. In that way, Repin is more of a photographer than a painter as David was.
 

Mrowak

Arcane
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
3,947
Project: Eternity
Black Cat said:
Mrowak said:

Would you consider a game along the lines of, say, Hellbound, on which the character designs are fully animetard...

http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/6533/characterselection.jpg

... while the entire rest of the game has an art style closer to a shock horror game...

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/1487/hellbound01.jpg

... an anime like game or not by that description? And, just to be clear, it isn't a trick question since i did read your entire post and i understood you are better informed than that viewpoint you described. I'm honestly interested, since your focused mostly on character design and almost nothing in the context those exist in.

Another example would be Baroque, a game with character design quite anime-like and some very weird and surreal dungeons and monsters, some that wouldn't be out of place in a dark fairy tale kind of setting and some that wouldn't be out of place on a survival horror game.


First of all let me start by saying that I view the issue of game setting you touched upon on two different though innately related layers. The extent to which the aspects can be divorced from each other or whether they can be divorced at all is an open question. For that reason many ideas I will attempt to convey may repeat themselves and, in spite of my best intentions to stay as infomative and comprehensive as possible, render my point illogical and moot. Also I am not going to discover Amerikwa here so...

The first level deals with the aesthetics as a form of setting's graphical presentation. This is something you certainly have in mind in the question posed above. The non-weeaboo part of the codex's consensus on the subject seems to incline towards opinion that from purely visual standpoint the depiction of the world reflects all the flaws evident in characters' presentation I highlighted earlier: lack of inventiveness, quirkiness for the sake of quirkiness, laziness towards details, general copy-paste attitude (what worked once will work always with minor rehashes here and there). Whether this accusations are always true is highly debatable but they do stem from the exposure to "what is currently most popular" and "what currently is popular" is by and large shit.

You've partially managed to counter this argument with your examples. The visual presentations of Hellbound and Baroque do look extraordinary (if not formidable) and certainly show a lot of potential the setting might have had... had it not been for one small thing you hit spot on with your question.

Here one must ask oneself how the presentation of the characters may impact the portrayal of the setting. And I am afraid my and most of animu detractors view will stand: shitty depiction of the heroes you will spend most time with can not only completely nullify the initial positive impression the painted universe conveys - in some cases the synergical combination of the two polarities leads to utter destruction of enjoyment from the experience. (Un)Fortunately codexian brain judges things by their lowest common denominator.

This is liek the thing Cleve Alexandros was talking about. Here you are with potentaily interesting game with apparently nice artwork and superb environments. And there go the animetard characters with their skimpy makover and idiotic design. Add to that immersive and mature banal shit boring take on normally serious (war, rebelion, love, sexual relationship, political themes etc) issues and you get a calamity.

This last sentence leads me to the second layer of the subject at hand and the next part of my rant: Aesthetics in devising a credible game-world.

Which I'll approach after I make myself a dinner (God I'm hungry)
 

DefJam101

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
8,047
Location
Cybernegro HQ
Zomg said:
Zomg said:
Do those "modern" bullet hell shooters use some kind of analog controller for the main input? I don't even see how some of that 1-2 pixel dodging would be possible with 4-way microswitch stick like Cave arcade games were made for.

Edit - Like specifically if you're in some kind of say 5 square pixel void with a ship with a 2 square pixel hitbox, and the 5 square pixel void is moving very slowly to the SSW or something, a digital controller is going to be absolute murder, you have to feather two different microswitches at two different rates so that you can get a geartooth velocity that averages out to the correct amount. While an analog controller or mouse would be much easier. Or better would be like an analog/digital stick that you could flip between modes with a button or something.

Bullet hell nerds answer bullet hell nerd question
They still make those? :(
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
Apparently. When I posted that I thought it was only like Japanese internet memeshit with fugly Bullethellmaker type programs but then I looked on Wikipedia and Cave is still making arcade games for Japs, except instead of being a flying ship that shoots bullets and lasers now the PC is a flying teenage robot girl that shoots bullets and lasers. And it all still uses 4-way switch joysticks because I guess they don't want to disappoint people that have invested as much work as a concert pianist into converting digital inputs to analog via their nervous system

Edit - Actually that's wrong, the girl on the wikipedia thing is a boss not the PC and from a youtobe video it looks like the same ships as dodonpachi
 

DefJam101

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
8,047
Location
Cybernegro HQ
Lyric Suite said:
Zeus said:
Good lord, "best art"? Did someone really just put out a call for TEH BEST ART?

This is why forums usually ban discussions about the best this or the best that. It leads to endless squabbles. Especially when talking about something as subjective as art.

What a bunch of stupid shit. The entire point of a discussion is to develop a truly objective opinion on a particular subject by comparing opposing point of views juxtaposed with one's own personal impression.
And yet you can't come to an absolute conclusion without disregarding your "opponent's" arguments or forming an "objective opinion" of course, which is a totally fucked concept.

The only difference between what he said and what you said is that one of you is chanting NO NO NO NO for the sake of feeling accomplished
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,721
Trash said:
FFT? Grinding does not a fun strategy or tactical game make. Chrono Trigger has shit combat and again that lame-ass art direction. Not to mention incredible childish characters. Other than that it was fun though. Persona is another dull grind. Didn't play the rest.

Try Lufia 2, it was a fun RPG with some interesting things to do outside of combat. There isn't much point to playing Lufia 1 before it.

It has the SNES look to it, but it's an example of what a good japanese game is.

If you want something that rivals fallout, you just aren't going to find it.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,721
Zeus said:
Blood Omen: Legacy of Kain is fantastic. At a time when everyone was making forgettable 3D console fighting games and futuristic racers, Silicon Knights came out of nowhere with a sprawling 2D Legend of Zelda style action/adventure game.
Perfect example of how a western developer can drop into a genre dominated by eastern developers and produce something that surpasses instead of emulates.

Show me the FPS made in japan that puts Republic Commando to shame. Or an RTS that anyone cares about. You'd think with how much Korea loves StarCraft, they would have been able to make something comparable by now.
 

PorkaMorka

Arcane
Joined
Feb 19, 2008
Messages
5,090
FFT is not so hot.

Instead you should play

Fire Emblem: Seisen no Keifu (get the fan translation)

and

Tactics Ogre for PSX (avoid excessive use of the training feature in this one)

preferably without spoilers.

But you have to like the genre or you still probably won't get into them.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
57,792
J1M said:
You'd think with how much Korea loves StarCraft, they would have been able to make something comparable by now.

Mmmh, interesting.
 

Zeus

Cipher
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
1,523
J1M said:
Perfect example of how a western developer can drop into a genre dominated by eastern developers and produce something that surpasses instead of emulates.

I wouldn't say Legacy of Kain surpasses Link to the Past or even Crystalis, but it certainly ranks among them. And it was a breath of fresh air when all other Western (console) developers were trying to make the next big WipeOut or Twisted Metal game.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,721
Zeus said:
J1M said:
Perfect example of how a western developer can drop into a genre dominated by eastern developers and produce something that surpasses instead of emulates.

I wouldn't say Legacy of Kain surpasses Link to the Past or even Crystalis, but it certainly ranks among them. And it was a breath of fresh air when all other Western (console) developers were trying to make the next big WipeOut or Twisted Metal game.
The only category I can think of where zelda is better than Blood Omen is control responsiveness. The animations in Blood Omen are a little clunky so it feels like there is a slight delay when you make an input.

Story, atmosphere, items, spells, level design, exploration, characters, etc. are all done better in Blood Omen.
 

Mrowak

Arcane
Joined
Sep 26, 2008
Messages
3,947
Project: Eternity
Mrowak said:
Black Cat said:
Mrowak said:
...

...

This last sentence leads me to the second layer of the subject at hand and the next part of my rant: Aesthetics in devising a credible game-world.

:Rant continues:

Much of the criticism given by 1eyedking, lyricsuite, Alexandros and me concerning the supbar visual design especially with regard to characters is quite valid. But it still pales in comparison by the inane manner in which most of the in-game universes are delivered. Admittedly this accusation refers mostly to games which at least attempt to tell a story, but with the current industry it's safe to say that even stupid simple platformer will try to do so.

The main problem I can see here lies with, as mentioned in my previous post, the aesthetics of the world. Yet this time it doesn't mean graphical art direction only but also utilisation of all other kinds of art (audial and narrative as well) for the sake of conception of a credible setting.

And what does "credible setting" mean? In my book it means a secondary world (as opposed to primary which we live in) where in spite of differently working "mechanics" (e.g. existence of magic, ability to time travel, ubiquitous lazorblades, presence of an inhabited "planet" having a shape of a pancake that rests on the backs of four elephants, which in turn are carried through the cosmic void by a gigantic turtle) the basic principles of narrative causality (cause and effect, choice and consequence), common sense (what is the natural consequence to a given choice) as well as logic (true=2xfalse=true) operate. In order for the world to be credible the abovesaid elements must be applied consistently, without any exception to all possible facets of the devised setting (e.g. storyline, characters, their interactions etc).

Note here, none of the above excludes insanity/demonic or spiritual possession, characters' shifting perspectives or any other mindfuck devices as viable elements of the game world. After all trying to widdle out truth, logic and sense in the events that seemingly lack them IS always in one way or another the major premise of games employing these.

If used as prescribed above accompanied by interesting graphical and audial design so called "suspension of disbelief" is achieved. The phenomenon happens when the setting created is so similar to the primary world (see above) that all doubts about possibility of the events happening in front of you are disspelled. It's basically "if magic/time-travel/gigantic cosmic turtles existed this might have as well happened in my backyard." As a result I as a player/reader/viewer does not need a leathal dose of valium in order to prevent themselves from thinking: this is bullshit.

The reason I'm mentioning all this is that I have yet to play a jap anime-based game where credibility of the world wouldn't be compromised at some point by stupid ass characters / setting not displaying adequate effects to corresponding causes / logic being bent as though the script writer lived solely on grass. Of course this may be because I am ignorant of the true gems out there having played only a few most popular jap titles.

By comparison I can name a number of western - story driven games where setting's credibility was at least reasonably high: Thief, Deus Ex, System Shock 2, Planescape:Torment, BG2 and Icewind Dale (2 especially), Fallout 1 (hell, even 2), Betrayal at Krondor, The Witcher, Mask of the Betrayer, The Monkey Island (an example that you may have all that in a nonsense-comic game), Discworld (hurr hurr), The Lost Express, Penumbra etc.

Mind you I'm not denying that weeaboos are perfectly capable of creating interesting settings. I've seen anime / read manga that certainly prove otherwise (amidst the sea of shit admittedly). I am saying that as far as mainstream gaming goes and even have gone they do not have much to offer (barring some few cool non-animu horror series).

In the end my point stands: among the games released in the west there used to be true gems which achieved sublime levels of aesthetic design in terms of pure art (visual, audial, narrative presentation) as well as effective employment of it in devising extraordinary imaginary worlds. They may have been corresponding titles in Japan but they got swamped by more popular shit (e.g. FF7) which came to be regarded as "art". After some years seeing that investing in sophisication for highly critical buyers when you can mass produce shit that morons fans will buy and defend against slightest criticism till their last breath the corporations opted for the easy route. Results? Kotor, Mass Effect, StarCraft 2, WoW, Dragon Age, Oblivion.

:Rant mode off:
 

Pablosdog

Prophet
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
1,879
I don't actually think that dragon age really falls under that same category, or even oblivion, as shit as it is. Most of the games that we adore come from already created worlds, or worlds that have some uniqueness to them. Sometimes its necessary to suspend realism in order to tell a compelling story. In terms of games, which are a medium of entertainment; the story should still serve secondary to the actual game-- which is the entire purpose of it's existence. A world should only be as realistic if it serves as a benefit to the game itself. Usually with rpgs, this is the case. Stifling creativity in place of realism however, can really restrict the possibilities for certain types of games.
 

DefJam101

Arcane
Joined
Nov 11, 2007
Messages
8,047
Location
Cybernegro HQ
I don't mind native american feather hats so long as the gameworld includes other people, or groups of people, who wear feather hats; or anything at all to justify the costume's existence. Otherwise it's just some concept artist pulling shit out of his ass because he thinks it's cool for x person to wear y ridiculous thing — yeah, it might be cool if it made any fucking sense beyond look at me I'm unique (and therefore a main character)
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,580
Can you guys give some concrete examples of verisimilitude breaking stuff in japanese games? Preferably ones mentioned here as being good, instead of going back to the 3D FF games for the fiftieth time that everyone agrees is shit anyways? A self coherent unique world is what generally draws me into jrpgs I like. I can't recall any moment in Chrono Trigger, for example, where I thought: 'Wtf, that makes no sense at all in this world.' The worst offenders are probably a few jrpg staples like being free to ransack chests in people's houses (Plenty just tell you to take whatever you need anyways though, implying everyone is complicit) and characters sudden inability to do things like climb over knee high barriers to facilitate some puzzle gameplay.

These things don't strike me as being any more fucked up than, for example, the total inability to you a raise dead spell on any plot relevant character in a DnD setting, or stupidness of random encounters and the logistics they imply present in either kind of game.
 

Black Cat

Magister
Joined
Jun 1, 2009
Messages
1,997
Location
Skyrim .///.
DamnedRegistrations said:
Can you guys give some concrete examples of verisimilitude breaking stuff in japanese games?

I'm assuming they watch something like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGv5w3kCVHc

... and say something like "Good Lord, my suspension of disbelief is absolutely gone." while they adjust their monocle.

Mrowak said:

Your two posts deserve a better answer than I can write having just woke up and while procrastinating about both my homework and breakfast, so i'll leave writing one for later on the day.
 

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