1eyedking Japanese games are shit. Here's why.

[Murk]

Ahhh, yes, old timey Codex fires. Detailed (and repetitive) arguments over topics to such grand lengths that are completely unnecessary.

I am so glad I just play games I like and don't fall into some idiotic trap of wanting high-art or whatever.

 

[anus_pounder]

BTW i might be misremembering, but Der Langrisser does have something interesting at the end. Besides the naturally different endings of all the paths, the npcs loose their plot immortality at the end i believe. So if they die on the final battle, the ending of that sequence will be slightly different.
Inconsistent, but interesting.

If you ask me, the best part of the game was how Elwin would suddenly change into a dick in every path but light. Also, the Light path is essentially you being a racist.

 

[Archibald]

Considering we're 21 pages deep with no signs of slowing down, I'd say he did a good job at starting a discussion.

We are 21 pages deep into shit, in my book discussion != shit.

And that's cool, but it still doesn't explain how magically killing those 1000 pushovers prevents your character from deriving experience from the battle with the dragon.

You want logical explanation for characters growth and development? What the fuck?

I think, If my memory doesn't fail me today, that I saw sth similar in FF9. One setting breaking thing I noticed in your words is the attack "piercing" normal immunity. If there is no special skill or item allowing that to the player we end up with the same rubbish as in Fallout 3 - when the protagonist dies in that radiation chamber at the end of the game even if he has 100% radiation-resistance. If you really want such attack, why make items skills that could nullify it easily available to the players at this point if game? You could introduce them later.

Because other, non boss enemies might have same skills and it would help against them? Concept of "magic penetration" or something along those lines isn`t anything new in gaming nor exclusive to jrpgs. Of course F3 example is retarded but when we are speaking about some destroyer of the worlds/universes/life and him being able to pierce your magic immunities... it makes fucking sense that being of such power could penetrate your defenses.

This is an example of "suspension of disbelief" breaking system - you would think think the poor creature seeing that its raging, vomiting oil and fire does nothing but only prolong its demise revert to a different behaviour or just flee (you don't really need sentinence to notice when odds are against you).

Or he can hope that you`ll run out of items and then he`ll fuck you. Also, in some jrpgs enemies do run away when they`re getting raped, in SMT games they might start begging for their lives. In Boss battles in doesn`t happen often but it would suck anyway imo.

The problem is they don't want to deliver often enough (lazy design, "the let's throw all that comes to our mind even if its utter rubbish" attitude)

Is this exclusive to Japan?

 

[laclongquan]

As if begging for its/his/her life would work. Gamers are a nasty bunch and any player controlled character could be a compulsive mass murderers. Almost always so.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Gamers are also greedy fuckers and the character is usually an unrepentant kleptomaniac. The scared enemies probably know this and will usually offer something in return if you spare them.

 

[Mrowak]

Nevertheless, most of the time, even when one accounts to your approach, it all comes down to exploiting the game's flaws on meta-level.

Welcome to the wonderful world of videogaming, i guess. If you aren't exploiting the game's flaws on meta level what are you doing, again? Maybe it's because of my bias for puzzle games, action games, and dungeon crawlers but i don't really understand the point of not exploiting the flaws on a meta level. Since when are we suposed to exploit the game's flaws on a meta level for first person shooters, bullet hell shmups, and space combat simulators but not for role playing games?

I think we somehow misunderstand each other. In the context of video gaming taking advantage of a given ruleset in order to achieve victory over your opponents is a requirement, not an exploit. Otherwise, how can you complete the game? Exploiting the game flaws is using flawed game design to take an upper hand against your foes - the fact that they won't use certain spells, items, won't exhibit certain behaviours though they should is an example of such design flaw.

Such behaviour is widely considered as "cheese" or "powergaming." Although undoubtedly fun (I've done it plenty of times!) it is not the way the game is supposed to be played. This approach is more for exposing the silliness of the adopted system. As a matter of fact it is used to highlight idiocy of certain design concepts, or just point out bugs. In other words they break the game. If you enjoyed, that's great for you but you don't prove by it that the game was awesome, unique or worth a dime - you prove the exact opposite - that it is buggy mess designed to be taken advantage of.

Funnily enough wRPGs can be approached in this manner as well. That Red Dragon from BG2 I mentioned in my earlier post can be destroyed by a low level party provided that you prepare yourself accordingly with proper spells, items as well as correct party setup and use the fact that he won't react for your fully buffed party to encircle him, with summoned creatures at disposal (I think this might have been patched in the expansion, I'm not sure).

To me selecting the spells / items / party balance for that fight because you get the background knowledge from the setting (Firekraag is a dragon - he has high fire and magic resistance. Moreover, he can attack 6 times per turn with each limb, head and tail - his anatomy explains it. Dragons are known for their fire breath so better have some protection against that) is a good and not setting breaking thing. During battle, seeing that he can use wing-attack to hurl you heroes against a wall, and positioning them correctly to minimise the negative effects is consistent. Taking advantage of the fact that you know he won't take an action against you when you come to his lair fully buffed with sharp shining blades to conveniently position your team so that he won't roast them with one attack is cheese.

My point being - the activity you enjoy in jRPGs and other jap games is nothing unique to them. But in wRPGs I just would not consider the sort of puzzle you speak of a bug to be exploited - not tactics proper - not even semi-tactics. This kind of thing used to be shunned at, patched if possible, modded if original studio went under. Knights of the Chalice for instance forbids you from pre-buffing your party with short-term spells if your characters don't know what's ahead of them (which unfortunately is the case all of the time). Modded BG2 will allow enemy mages to start combat with full coat of spells on them + a couple of buffs on their warrior allies + the allies will have oils of speed, potions of healing and invisibility they will use - all in the name of greater realism. But you won't be seeing anything like that in any jRPG. And you know why? No, not because consoles don't have the capacity to patch/mod them. If the had not happened we wouldn't need to mod our game to see quality and consistency in any mainstream RPG, asian or otherwise. Rather because in terms of game design the puzzles you are talking about are their only redeeming feature. In the face of clunky combat and ubiquitous random encounters and enemies whose behaviour is inconsistent with the background provided to them, you need to have some challenge other than GRINDAN and it is perfectly human behaviour to make it yourself. But it doesn't mean the game is awesum. It means that you are awesum player that can "break" the game.

And that brings us to the next point of our debate:

Let me ask you this: Do you really think this kind of gameplay is very sophisticated? In your opinion, does one require exceptional wits to crack the game in this manner? And above all, in your view, must game puzzles and credible settings / character behaviour be mutually exclusive?

First, I never said every single one was such. It depends on the game. Second, you should really inform yourself about the games we have mentioned before going on and on about how you imagine all JRPGs to be. Third, and about your example, of course he has certain programmed behaviour patterns that simply prevent him of doing things you can do, just as they allow him to do things you can't do. Because, you see, he's not a lord of the seven hells. He's a boss in a game. He doesn't exists, you see, and thus his only reason to be is to give you a certain type of challenge, then die once you discover how to defeat him. Painfully.

I don't quite follow you here, sorry.
1) Do you mean with that answer that not every jap game employing this type of gameplay is sophisticated? If so, I never said all games must be such - they differ - big deal :shrugs: . This, (and the other queries) was rather general enquiry probing your opinion. However, a truly great specimen must be a little bit more high-brow than average casual western game. This may be the reason why large part of the codex dislikes the games - they think there is nothing in them that could put the best one on par with, say Fallout or Mask of the Betrayer. Therefore, they are not worth the effort. I'm sorry but although I consider myself more knowledgeable about this subject than an average codexer, I'm inclined towards the hivemind's opinion.

2)I'm doing my best. You really don't expect me to throw everything IRL, download all those games, finish them in a week and then proceed to constructive criticism (I doubt I'd be able to form a single human thought after that ordeal - and even playing all codex classics would be and ordeal if conducted in this manner). Or do you think I'm going to read all the gooshing reviews on the net? For one thing - knowing the amount of hype that appears in an average article I could not form an unbiased opinion be it positive or negative. Secondly, that would not supply me with any arguments that couldn't be negated by simple "you haven't played it so stfu". I do investigate a little bit, before commenting on some design though.

3)Yes our demon lord is not really a demon lord but a few lines of code, a string of 0 and 1s. He is to die - his fate is pretty much sealed the moment you load the game for the first time (provided it's good enough). That happens in every game featuring combat and killing stuff. And that's obvious.

However, does the simple fact that he is game character mean the game must remind me about it with some dumbfuck design decision that he is that and only that. If so, than why have storyline, setting, backgrounds, action at all? Wouldn't it be better to keep it simple and limit yourself to minesweeper, scrabble or chess - great gameplay in all of them.

I was jesting here but with the original question "And above all, in your view, must game puzzles and credible settings / character behaviour be mutually exclusive?" I meant to get from you whether the puzzles you enjoy - finding about the boss's weakness and taking adventage of it - by definition excludes believeable behaviour and consistency of the setting? Can't the two ideas be combined together? Would it hurt if the boss in addition to his demigod powers actually had access to the same (maybe better) arsenal of spells and items you have he could use as you can when his arse is being handed over to him? Yes that would mean that the puzzles you enjoy so much would get harder but still solveable - maybe partially through the interaction with the setting itself. How about making raid on the big bad's fortress with the sole purpose to destroy his spellbook. A simple, even trite sub-quest that is supported by the assumed universe. You create the boss's weakness, instead of him doing that himself by being a moron. Can't the setting be the place you find the solution to your problem in, instead something to a be broken apart as a result of "power gaming" or even by the stupid design itself? You illustrated later in your post that this can be possible. Whether it is implemented often and effectively enough, is another issue.

I have nothing against SMT - a game from 1992 - sporting its level of attention to detail. I do have when a story-driven game from 2005-2010 costing shitloads of $$$ to make and hyped to heaven hell itself does.

What will you people whine about next? Oh, man, Freespace's such a bad game! Once you know how's a given mission scripted you get better at it! Teh Horror!

I'm really really trying to be as clear and comprehensive in my argument as possible. I also think I have never lowered myself to "whining".

Incidentally, Conflict:Freespace is the kind of game extremely difficult to exploit and very consistent with adopted setting. Your enemies and allies alike will use every available way, weapon, space-ship to achieve victory. Even if you play the mission for the n-th time you'll notice how well realitically the combat looks. Every squadron, every corvete has its separate mission objective it will attempt to fulfill. Your task is often to aid in its completion / prevent it. If the objective is to vapourize that huge battle cruiser large battleships will try to locate themselves to deliver massive cannon barrage, unless stopped from this by your/enemy pilots' actions in which case they will try to defend themselves and escape. It is all scripted, but it's scripted for the make believe. Tell me, how being a pilot of a small fighter, can you break a setting like this? Juxtapose that with the demon lord again who won't focus his attacks on your weakest heroe that he sees provides healing for the party. Tell me now that the level of consistency in both games is comperable.

As far as I know I'm not mentally impaired in any way. Still I didn't discover the truth about TNO's identity in my first PS:T playthrough.

The keyword was clearing. You don't need to discover TNO's identity to clear (say, win) Torment. You don't even need to discover TNO's identity to clear any particular path. And, again, it's not like discovering TNO's identity is a puzzle (say, compared to puzzles as in Myst or Rhem) but just a possible outcome of a situation. And, again, there's no skill required to get it. You don't have to be good at the game. TNO needs to have certain stat values.

Oh yes TNO needs certain values but he also needs player's guidance, a level of his (hopefully big enough) attention to details. Otherwise none of these events could take place.

I'm not buying into puzzle for the sake of the puzzle thing. Puzzles as in Myst and Risen are awesomely difficult but also frequently out of place - only an extravagant genious or a nitwit would come up with them and insert in such unlikely places as they were. You might enjoy them. I do not. We roll differently. No problem there.

All of the above was possible in the respective gameworlds through careful analysis of the events that are transpiring.

Like how using certain demons with mythological connections to other demons score you an automatic success when recruiting, you mean? Using Nike to recruit divines on Persona, for example, or using Orthrus to recruit Kerberos on Nocturne. Or how, again on Nocturne, the only way to get Lilith is to play her mythological connection to another demon, and the same to get Cu Chulain and many others? Or the so called Mythology Fusions, where you must fuse a precise set of demons somehow related to the myth of the one you want to get? Or how on Raidou's games the way some dialogues play may change based on what demons you have and the like?

Are you saying those things aren't done by analysis of the gameworld but showing someone your jumpsuit to bypass a quest is? Oh, my... Only difference is, they are side elements on an already solid game and no one will try to tell you Persona is great because Nike can recruit divines, man! nor Nocturne is such a great game, you can only get Cu Chulain by fusing and evolving Setanta!

All of the things you mentioned above are examples of setting being accounted for in game-play mechanics. And that's great isn't it? That's what I love in my story-driven games, when a analysing the world, its history, its lore can bring me concrete benefits - in this case obtaining a powerful demon. SMT games are awesome in this regard, no conflict here.
Pitty they don't do things like that more often and keep undermining its world in different aspects (e.g. characters' not behaving believeably).

Which is exactly what you are saying about those games. Problem is, also, that the results of many of those examples I gave you (mythology fusions and evolved demons) are unique to that method. You can enter Vault City other way, you can't get Amateratsu or Girimekhala but by means of a mythology fusion, nor get Lilith or Cu Chulain by means other than a demonic evolution. So, again, paying attention to the gameworld is forced here if you want to find such content, while even if you don't pay attention to the gameworld you'll be able to enter Vault City.

But "clearing" the game as you said in SMT, can be achieved also through grinding and let's face it - if you can count to 10 - you can easily find a demon setup that while not as effective as the "secret" monsters, with appropriate levels will still be enough to win the day. (Whether it will be enough to complete that secret battle is a different question altogether).

Moreover, let me remind you that, that it is hivemind's view the more solutions to the same problem with different outcomes the better. C&C. Having the different solution to the same problem with the same outcome, though perfectly valid is nothing impressive and it can hardly persuade a codexer to try a jap game.

Disclaimer: My objective was never to prove that "all jap games are crap by definition lololol ROFL LMAO, u r dumb." Again, some of them are amazing. Some of the could be amazing if they didn't have idiotic shit in them - such as stupid character design or dimwit thematic approach (e.g. Sengoku Rance). And most of them, just like western games are godawful.

The only gripe I personally have with japanese games as a whole which puzzles me to no end is that for some reason exactly the things that are silly and mundane in them, I really hoped to point out in objective, unbiased manner, became widely seen as "deep", "mature" and "artistic". And the result is, because those elements were easy to transplant to mainstream western games, that in 10 years time we're not likely to see any major improvement in any facet - rather we will experience constant systematic degradation .

Thank you for your game recommendations. Will try them out if time permits.

 

[Archibald]

First wall of shit

You fail to understand that your examples are not intended exploits and bugs. If you honestly believe that developers of SMT aren`t aware of "exploits" in their games after 20+ years of making them then you`re retarded.

How about making raid on the big bad's fortress with the sole purpose to destroy his spellbook.

Star Ocean 2 had this for final boss. I just don`t remember how it worked, i`m not sure if he would be weeker if you`d discover something in his "tower" or he`d go batshit crazy.

I meant to get from you whether the puzzles you enjoy - finding about the boss's weakness and taking adventage of it - by definition excludes believeable behaviour and consistency of the setting?

No. Majority of monsters in SMT are inspired by religion and mythology to mirror our own world, it would make no sense(as far as setting goes) that demon who attacks people in sleap with poison would have some fire/ice/instakill spells.

I have nothing against SMT - a game from 1992 - sporting this level of attention to detail. I do have when a story-driven game from 2005-2010 costing shitloads of $$$ to make and hyped to heaven hell itself does.

Then why are you even here? Videogaming is in decline, everyone fucking knows it, why post about it in this thread?

 

[Mrowak]

We are 21 pages deep into shit, in my book discussion != shit.

First wall of shit

Tell me, what do you think a discussion is then. Because it seems to me you think a discussion means people doing stuff like this:
"A: SMT is the great game because you have so many folklore references.
B: No, SMT is a great game because of its awesome gameplay!
C: You're both wrong. SMT is a great game because..."

In other worlds a glorified club for fangirls. Very grimdark and edgy.

How can I treat you seriously when you treat me and my words outright as nonsense - just because I take the opposite stance than you do. If you at least pointed out how fellacious and misguided my opinions were there we could have a discussion. This wall of text is there for a reason - to illustrate my points. Selecting things for your convenience, quoting them out of context, then writing one liner totally missing the point and being all about may arouse your ego but does not prove that your opinions are more valid (though they may well be). I proves you're total dickhead and your post as well as your person is full of shit. Your juvenile scorn does not impress anyone.

At least posters as Spekkio, DamnedRegistration and Black Cat are making an effort to support their view giving perfectly sensible reasons why such and such is a good game element in this context. You on the other hand seem to have no ideas of your own - you simply ape anything that you thought you like.

You fail to understand that your examples are not intended exploits and bugs. If you honestly believe that developers of SMT aren`t aware of "exploits" in their games after 20+ years of making them then you`re retarded.

If the supreme god of awesomeness acts in battle like total nitwit not taking advantage of his full power, or game elements available to player he should have access to himself, allowing for the players to steamroll him I consider this an exploit, a bug or a design flaw inherent in game.

How about making raid on the big bad's fortress with the sole purpose to destroy his spellbook.

Star Ocean 2 had this for final boss. I just don`t remember how it worked, i`m not sure if he would be weeker if you`d discover something in his "tower" or he`d go batshit crazy.

Cool story bro, but you phailed at your reading comprehension. Why a boss must act like a retard in order for him to be beatable? Why can't you simply insert a believeable explanation in game that he is limited to his current set of skills e.g. a powerful buddhist monk sealed some of his power - hence he cannot use healing spells - for that reason he will always keep a healer near him you must quickly dispose. Sounds more convincing than simply I won't because I won't?

I'm a firm believer that in order for the setting to be credible your opponents must also be subjected to the same rules as you are. He may have level 100 while the max cap for you is 20 which gives him all the awesum stuff you can only dream about. But at the end of the day he will be subjected to the same rulset albeit with abilities that will allow him to do more shit than you ever will.

I meant to get from you whether the puzzles you enjoy - finding about the boss's weakness and taking adventage of it - by definition excludes believeable behaviour and consistency of the setting?

No. Majority of monsters in SMT are inspired by religion and mythology to mirror our own world, it would make no sense(as far as setting goes) that demon who attacks people in sleap with poison would have some fire/ice/instakill spells.

But it would make sense for a boss to offset his limitations, wouldn't it? In the same way like you do - by using items, other characters, combination of spells instead of employing recursive behaviour patterns. If I were a big bad boss and I knew there were heroes coming for my arse who steamrolled my minions I would certainly make some provisions for that. Not go "MUHAHAHA you gonna die" some 60 sec later followed by "Not in the ass!!!"

Again not every jap game acts in this manner. But most of them do and you can easily see the same pattern introduced in modern western games.

I have nothing against SMT - a game from 1992 - sporting this level of attention to detail. I do have when a story-driven game from 2005-2010 costing shitloads of $$$ to make and hyped to heaven hell itself does.

Then why are you even here? Videogaming is in decline, everyone fucking knows it, why post about it in this thread?

Again reddings teh hard, I guess. Look at the three last paragraphs of my previous post. Read them. Form your stance. Articulate it in a sensible fashion.

Disclaimer: I never said SMT series games are shit. I'm saying most of jap games are. And that their influence radiates on wRPGs and hampers progress of both sides - with lazy design, art direction, once again the all eternall "let's have shit there so what it's stupid?" attitude. Many ideas in SMT nocturne appear to be awesome. I just wish it treated itself more seriously (the corniness inherent in jap games Alexandros talked about?).

I still want to check it out but your "grimdark, edgy, (im)mature" behaviour makes me less eager to do so.

 

[DefJam101]

Mrowak think of all the things you could have accomplished instead of posting in this thread. :D

 

[Clockwork Knight]

Tell me, what do you think a discussion is then. Because it seems to me you think a discussion means people doing stuff like this:
"A: SMT is the great game because you have so many folklore references.
B: No, SMT is a great game because of its awesome gameplay!
C: You're both wrong. SMT is a great game because..."

In other worlds a glorified club for fangirls. Very grimdark and edgy.

Change "SMT" for "PST" and you have most codexers' idea of a perfect, highbrow discussion

 

[Mrowak]

Ahhh, yes, old timey Codex fires. Detailed (and repetitive) arguments over topics to such grand lengths that are completely unnecessary.

I am so glad I just play games I like and don't fall into some idiotic trap of wanting high-art or whatever.

Yes, having read a number of ye ol' threads I think I got possessed by nostalgia for times I hadn't even been around these parts.

/ you decide.

Mrowak think of all the things you could have accomplished instead of posting in this thread. :D

Yeah, I've finally saw the light and reached the same conclusion. This is the end for me here :D . I think now I know what warped 1eyedking's and skyway's minds into oblivion conspiracy
Still, I think that every codexer should at least once go through a phase like that to learn the true nature of the Codex :conspiracy: .

There's nothing gained from recycling the same argument over and over again with both sides staying deaf to each other.

I'm bailing out

 

[Archibald]

Mrowak,
i`m sorry, you`re one of few cool posters in this thread, its just that this thread pisses me off and i`m masochist so i continue reading it.

If the supreme god of awesomeness acts in battle like total nitwit not taking advantage of his full power, or game elements available to player he should have access to himself, allowing for the players to steamroll him I consider this an exploit, a bug or a design flaw inherent in game.

Maybe i don`t understand your position but here it`s how i see it:

Atlus creates bosses and whole system in megami games on purpose like puzzles. Thats how they want their game to be played. They make certain bosses with certain weeknesses and spells so that you`d have to build a party capable of withstading his attacks and able to kill him.

Now, on the other hand we have exploits like pre-buffing. I doubt that every fight in game is balanced for "honest" and pre-buffing players. If ambush is strong enough to kill you with your buffs then they should have even easier time with you when you`re not buffed. No? Therefore i doubt that developers in such games think "But they might come with buffs!" when creating encounters and as a result pre-buffing is not intended.

For me this is the difference. SMT`s system requires thinking and time. Pre-buffing requires to load game before encounter and push few hotkeys. SMT`s system is intended, pre-buffing is not.

How can it be design flaw when whole design is based around it?

Why a boss must act like a retard in order for him to be beatable? Why can't you simply insert a believeable explanation in game that he is limited to his current set of skills e.g. a powerful buddhist monk sealed some of his power - hence he cannot use healing spells - for that reason he will always keep a healer near him you must quickly dispose. Sounds more convincing than simply I won't because I won't?

Because not everything neads explanation. I can assume that evil black knight of genocide can`t learn healing spells because he is investing his time in black arts, therefore "light" spells aren`t aviable for him. And it works for me just fine.

In general 99% of your "arguments" work for wrpgs so thats why i asked why are you posting here. After all, this should be a "disccusion" about japanese games being shitty Y/N, not about decline/falws of gaming, yes?

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Do you lot even know what you're arguing about anymore?

 

[Tycn]

22 pages of shit that would be congesting the oasis of GRPG otherwise.

 

[Achilles]

Eh, haters gonna hate and all that. I thought it was a pretty good discussion.

 

[Achilles]

Indeed

 

[Admiral jimbob]

And we proved that anyone saying "guys, x has a few merits and is worth a go" is really saying "guys, I think Japanese art and anime are far superior to Michaelangelo and that JRPGs are better than Fallout" and bros I think that was well worth doing

 

[Clockwork Knight]

At least no one actively criticized wrpgs. The shitstorm would last for a hundred pages

 

[Raghar]

And we proved that anyone saying "guys, x has a few merits and is worth a go" is really saying "guys, I think Japanese art and anime are far superior to Michaelangelo and that JRPGs

That are images from FF XII. I could find even images from Muramasa, but on average Japanese visual arts are above west companies. The problem that drags down majority of Japanese companies is a lack of in house research, console development problems, and too movie like stuff.

 

[CrimHead]

COMPARE FINAL FANTASY 13 CHARACTER WITH THIS PAINTING OF JESUS ON THE CROSS

IT SHOULD BE FAIRLY OBVIOUS JAPANESE PEOPLE HAVE NO CREATIVITY BY NOW

 

[Raghar]

Fighting Firekraag in BG2 required different approach than that demilich, or the bloody beholders.

Could you avoid these fights by joining them?

I know I always considered that notion of not rewarding player's characters for boss fight, but giving its miniscule amount for every single minion, to be particularly retarded.

Not rewarding characters directly could cause them to use brain and try to avoid encounter with that boss. Direct reward basically forces them into fight.

One setting breaking thing I noticed in your words is the attack "piercing" normal immunity.

Or better - you could make obtaining an item giving the supreme invulnerability against death spells a subquest - sort of preparation.

In FF there is a spell that is common to take immunities as mere partial resistances and ignore resistances completely. Ultima. In FF X-2 it's basically the only thing that can hurt Yuna when she would turn into flower and fully enchants herself.

In FF X there was a choice, you'd be able to make either an Armageddon sword, or an armor with protection against similar attacks and zombification.

The trouble with that combat wasn't an irresistible spell, thought when you were smart you might get into problems by avoiding zombification, the problem was there was no reason to attack her.

Spoiler

Aside she killed sir Auron few tens years ago, and he walked as undead until the end of FF X. But that's not a reason to fight. I'd guess she would be easy to seduce to let them to try theirs crazy plan of attacking head on without any support.

At least no one actively criticized wrpgs. The shitstorm would last for a hundred pages

That's because it was topic about Japanese games.

But if you insist, lets try this. BG was a simplistic game that was full of logical mistakes. Its suspension of disbelief was quite poor. Nearly every kobolt had enchanted bow with arrow +1, or explosion arrows, shouldn't be these items rather rare?

Mystery. A strange lands. Environment that fits well together. Cities that doesn't feel like props. Strange behavior. People that acts an thinks differently. Orient without AndhairaX.
Wise dragons.
Consequences of killing every somewhat challenging monster left and right.

 

[FeelTheRads]

That are images from FF XII. I could find even images from Muramasa, but on average Japanese visual arts are above west companies.

What the fuck? Dude, you seriously pick the worst images possible. They're both fucking messes of shapes thrown together. They have no design, no uniformity. Anybody can do this, but some have the decency not to.

But it's no surprise, Japanese "art" IS for the lowest common denominator.

Above western companies... what a fucking joke.

 

[Raghar]

That are images from FF XII. I could find even images from Muramasa, but on average Japanese visual arts are above west companies.

What the fuck? Dude, you seriously pick the worst images possible. They're both fucking messes of shapes thrown together. They have no design, no uniformity.

Show me these images from west games.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

They're both fucking messes of shapes thrown together. They have no design, no uniformity.

No u

 

[DefJam101]

He's right in that the two images don't look plausible or functional. Eastern vidya game art tends to succeed in surrealism and originality whereas western art design leans more toward functionality.

Unfortunately western art designers often accomplish this by making everything look fucking boring

 

[DefJam101]

Nexus TJI has some good spessship design: