Jeanne d'Arc, Tactics Ogre, Lufia 2, and more

[Tigranes]

OK, so I expect to have to do some travel soon and have rejigged my Retroarch on laptop. I wanted to take this opportunity to check out some console games that I never had the console for and never quite got round to emulating. These titles are mostly from Codex recommendations, so I thought I'd post some impressions/questions:

Lufia 2:
Many a Codexer in the past ten years have said this is the balls, but never with any explanation. The first half hour, it does look quite funky. Anything to keep in mind as I venture forward?

Jeanne d'Arc:
I actually finally finished this, after emulation troubles last few times I tried. I would generally recommend. It's a bit too easy once you figure out how to chain the transform kills, and I am very disappointed that the story threw out the historical stuff completely halfway through and went all into 9 year old cartoon demon fantasy. But there's still enough of a nice history cartoon feel and a good tactical combat loop. They also made a good effort at shaping the personalities of the main characters, though the delivery can be hammy.

Tactics Ogre:
Installed the PS1 version over PSP based on old Codex posts. To be honest, it's pretty clunky to get into. Especially on keyboard it's a lot of buttons and awkward movements to give orders. Am I right to stick with PS1? And this is meant to be The Greatest Game of this type right?

Persona Q
I've gone through almost all the Megatens. Persona 5 was good, but keep hearing that the combat/gameplay is really poor and boring on P3/4. I also enjoyed Etrian Odysseys. Now I'm checking out Persona Q, which nobody seems to talk about anywhere, but surely it can't be that bad... can it?

 

[Bigg Boss]

I played the PSP version of Tactics Ogre and I loved it. Clunky ON KEYBOARD? Do you own a controller?

 

[Carpincho Pampeano]

OK, so I expect to have to do some travel soon and have rejigged my Retroarch on laptop. I wanted to take this opportunity to check out some console games that I never had the console for and never quite got round to emulating. These titles are mostly from Codex recommendations, so I thought I'd post some impressions/questions:

Lufia 2:
Many a Codexer in the past ten years have said this is the balls, but never with any explanation. The first half hour, it does look quite funky. Anything to keep in mind as I venture forward?

Jeanne d'Arc:
I actually finally finished this, after emulation troubles last few times I tried. I would generally recommend. It's a bit too easy once you figure out how to chain the transform kills, and I am very disappointed that the story threw out the historical stuff completely halfway through and went all into 9 year old cartoon demon fantasy. But there's still enough of a nice history cartoon feel and a good tactical combat loop. They also made a good effort at shaping the personalities of the main characters, though the delivery can be hammy.

Tactics Ogre:
Installed the PS1 version over PSP based on old Codex posts. To be honest, it's pretty clunky to get into. Especially on keyboard it's a lot of buttons and awkward movements to give orders. Am I right to stick with PS1? And this is meant to be The Greatest Game of this type right?

Persona Q
I've gone through almost all the Megatens. Persona 5 was good, but keep hearing that the combat/gameplay is really poor and boring on P3/4. I also enjoyed Etrian Odysseys. Now I'm checking out Persona Q, which nobody seems to talk about anywhere, but surely it can't be that bad... can it?

Before playing tactics ogre play ogre battle, there's a lot of references to it, also combat is superior and more interesting.

 

[Bigg Boss]

Don't listen to that person listen to me.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

this is meant to be The Greatest Game of this type right?

I liked Tactics Ogre because of the story and the feel. I won't spoil it, but at the end of chapter 1, something happens that really amps up the tension and made me invested to see Denam's journey to the end. It feels like there are stakes, the odds are stacked against you, and there are bad guys I want to see get their comeuppance. The characters are interesting enough, and there are some memorable scenes that stick out in my mind years later. I don't want to oversell TO's story, though.

I didn't like the gameplay very much, but being able to control up to 10 characters on the field gave the game a more "epic" feel than many other SRPGs.

 

[Tigranes]

I played the PSP version of Tactics Ogre and I loved it. Clunky ON KEYBOARD? Do you own a controller?

Yeah, but I'm especially looking for stuff I can play on trains and planes - so turn-based on keyboard.

I do like the vibe of TO even from the opening dialogue - but my impression is very large maps with lots of units which makes the clunky more of an issue

 

[Valestein]

I'd love for a modern PC release of Jeanne D'Arc. That game was dope and it's a shape they didn't make more spiritual sequels using other historical figures.

 

[Jermu]

persona q1-2 are fine but not as good as etrian odyssey games. If you have played etrian odyssey before then be sure to go with risky difficulty.

Also I would advice to play persona 3-4 before q1-2. Both of those are great games

 

[Tigranes]

I'd love for a modern PC release of Jeanne D'Arc. That game was dope and it's a shape they didn't make more spiritual sequels using other historical figures.

Yeah, it was a good game all round. I just wish people making historical games actually make historical games. The Council is a modern example of this disease where you feel compelled to abandon everything you built up and turn it into a supernatural story.

 

[Gunnar]

You play Lufia 2 for the ancient cave.

 

[MRY]

Many a Codexer in the past ten years have said this is the balls, but never with any explanation. The first half hour, it does look quite funky. Anything to keep in mind as I venture forward?

It's basically a traditional jRPG with some decent Zelda-ish puzzles thrown in. I think the story is weaker than Lufia 1 (which has an incredibly good hook, and great music), but the game is much more fun, as Lufia 1 has an extremely high random encounter rate and is pretty tedious overall. In Lufia 2, there are fewer combats, you can see and avoid (and ambush) enemies, so it just feels less grindy.

 

[ghostdog]

Lufia 2:
Many a Codexer in the past ten years have said this is the balls, but never with any explanation. The first half hour, it does look quite funky. Anything to keep in mind as I venture forward?

Lufia 2 is better than lufia 1 in every way, but L1 is not bad by any means afair, haven't played it for a long time. L2 has good JRPG TB battles, has a pretty nice batch of characters, and some pretty neat puzzles in the dungeons, tied to various special abilities you gradually get. Only a few easy puzzles are mandatory to progress, so the hardest are for those that like that stuff.

You also get a game within a game, where you can takle the ancient Cave, a roguelike 99 level dungeon randomly generated. It's nice, but I suggest not to try to win it first time around, play with it a bit and go back to the game if you don't have a lucky run. No need to spend too many hours with it. You can come back later.

L2 stands out having an interesting collection of various styles and systems and the real success is that they seem very nicely combined and rounded as a whole.

It's probably good to use the frue Lufia II rom-patch, that fixes some bugs, restores some stuff and rebalances the game a bit.

 

[Tigranes]

Thanks ghostdog - I guess I should restart with the patch!

 

[MRY]

Lufia 2 is better than lufia 1 in every way

It is not.

Lufia has one of the best cold opens in all of gaming.

It drags on too long, but IMO there's nothing else quite like it. That music is incredible, and it such an effective line of text: "Without warning, the island suddenly appeared in the sky." Comparable to Karateka's "High atop a craggy cliff" in simple elegance, but when combined with the music starting with the Taito logo (rather than at the appearance of the island), and with the quality of the music itself, it outdoes Karateka. Further, it is brilliant that this starts when the game boots up, rather than when you start a new game.

While, as noted, this sequence goes on too long, the next sequence is also nearly perfect.
https://youtu.be/8DvmOLoAojU?t=108
Again, amazing music, nearly perfect writing. The ending text of the island crawl -- "And so the final battle began..." -- is so contrary to your expectations (game starts at the final battle?!?) that you are immediately thrown off. Then the fantastic, almost frantic music hits (only a few pieces of game music are a good at making you feel thrilled to attack a fortress, Wily Stage 1 from Megaman comes to mind), with an unseen person saying: "It's so dark." (Again, a perfect line, I'm not exaggerating, it's simple, it's metaphorical, and it conveys vulnerability.) Then you have a party member cast a spell (bridging cutscene and gameplay). Some so-so writing, then another great melodramatic jRPG line: "So cold! It freezes straight to the heart!" Again, emphasizing the vulnerability of the love interest character. And unseen foe mockingly welcomes you. The heroes circle back-to-back, an extremely rudimentary animation (just changing their facing direction), but it conveys that they feel terrified (fittingly, for the Sinistral of Terror). The game begins.

From here, it disappoints because the movement speed is too slow to match the pace of the music, and you suddenly start doing somewhat unexciting things like opening treasure chests, etc., the enemy types are goofy, and the combat music isn't suitable for the situation. But, still, having these high-level heroes is a great introduction to the game systems on "easy mode."

Then you fight and beat the bosses... but lose.


All said, it's great, and left such a lasting impression on me I used it as the launching point for the Gameboy Color RPG I worked on:

(Yeah, yeah, that was literally more than half a lifetime ago that I worked on it, and it made me five grand, so I'll never be embarrassed about its cheesiness!)

Lufia 2 imitates Lufia 1's plot and framing, but is nowhere near as effective. Higher production values, but nowhere near the impact. So even if Lufia 2 did literally everything else better, it left nothing like the same impression on me.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

Tactics Ogre on PS1 is balanced horribly to start. Grinding levels via practice battles will make you want to blow your brains out, but don't do it and the early battles are impossible (DO NOT let Canopus carry the team and steal valuable XP). Gets good eventually.

The PSP remake smooths things out and has many QoL upgrades but also adds crafting and gear grinding that kinda blows. Looks a lot nicer.

 

[mediocrepoet]

This might earn me some hate, but... when I played Lufia 2, it wasn't only the RPG elements and gameplay that took me in, even though those were fun. To be honest, other than being a solid JRPG and one of the better ones in the genre, I don't remember a whole lot about it and would probably replay it if it were more easily available outside of emulation scenes.

The thing in Lufia 2 that has always stuck with me is that it sets up a fairly simple, but effective, story arc including elements like love and loss that are well done, especially in the limitations of the time. In my opinion, it handles the player character love story far better than the modern day porn simulator aimed at basement dwellers, and it's one of the main reasons I find the game to be so memorable. I would say that it left a similar impression on me as a package as L1 did on MRY.

I don't know if it holds up as well now, both with advancements in gaming, but also advancements in age and maturity of the player, but it certainly sits in a fond place in my memory of great historical games.

 

[distant]

https://www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1

Wouldn't replay vanilla without it.

 

[Kruno]

Lufia 2 is very good but you have to beat it twice for the proper ending, one I wasn't aware of until I was much older.
NG+ isn't just a tacked on game mode, it's part of the story. Dialogue changes, sometimes in subtle ways, but heavily towards the end.

There is another ending? I thought they all died saving their homeland? I have been looking for more info on this second ending and no luck as of yet.

 

[mediocrepoet]

The thing in Lufia 2 that has always stuck with me is that it sets up a fairly simple, but effective, story arc including elements like love and loss that are well done

While I wouldn't be so positive it's interesting that in my quick review of the DS revamp I also specifically pointed out the way romance arcs are handled:

The writing is typical jRPG fare but I do give it credits for having characters hook up, get married and give birth midstory, instead of tiptoeing around the issue forever

All this teenage maybe-maybe-not is all so tiresome.

Yeah, that could be, I played it nearly 30 years ago on the SNES.

Spoiler

But I do recall liking not just that the two characters got together, but also that the childhood friend who was in love with the hero was friend zoned as life moved on and the heroic destiny thing took over. It may be simplistic especially by today's standards, but it was a nice touch that added something to the game - based on my recollections. I haven't replayed this game since the 90s.

EDIT: Wait, they rereleased this on the DS? Huh, crap. I missed it and I've long since given away my DS and all that stuff to the kids.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

EDIT: Wait, they rereleased this on the DS? Huh, crap. I missed it and I've long since given away my DS and all that stuff to the kids.

it's shit
not a remaster, complete remake with large story rewriting and much different character design, action combat, etc.,

 

[ghostdog]

Lufia 2 is better than lufia 1 in every way

It is not.

Lufia has one of the best cold opens in all of gaming.

It drags on too long, but IMO there's nothing else quite like it. That music is incredible, and it such an effective line of text: "Without warning, the island suddenly appeared in the sky." Comparable to Karateka's "High atop a craggy cliff" in simple elegance, but when combined with the music starting with the Taito logo (rather than at the appearance of the island), and with the quality of the music itself, it outdoes Karateka. Further, it is brilliant that this starts when the game boots up, rather than when you start a new game.

While, as noted, this sequence goes on too long, the next sequence is also nearly perfect.
https://youtu.be/8DvmOLoAojU?t=108
Again, amazing music, nearly perfect writing. The ending text of the island crawl -- "And so the final battle began..." -- is so contrary to your expectations (game starts at the final battle?!?) that you are immediately thrown off. Then the fantastic, almost frantic music hits (only a few pieces of game music are a good at making you feel thrilled to attack a fortress, Wily Stage 1 from Megaman comes to mind), with an unseen person saying: "It's so dark." (Again, a perfect line, I'm not exaggerating, it's simple, it's metaphorical, and it conveys vulnerability.) Then you have a party member cast a spell (bridging cutscene and gameplay). Some so-so writing, then another great melodramatic jRPG line: "So cold! It freezes straight to the heart!" Again, emphasizing the vulnerability of the love interest character. And unseen foe mockingly welcomes you. The heroes circle back-to-back, an extremely rudimentary animation (just changing their facing direction), but it conveys that they feel terrified (fittingly, for the Sinistral of Terror). The game begins.

From here, it disappoints because the movement speed is too slow to match the pace of the music, and you suddenly start doing somewhat unexciting things like opening treasure chests, etc., the enemy types are goofy, and the combat music isn't suitable for the situation. But, still, having these high-level heroes is a great introduction to the game systems on "easy mode."

Then you fight and beat the bosses... but lose.


All said, it's great, and left such a lasting impression on me I used it as the launching point for the Gameboy Color RPG I worked on:

(Yeah, yeah, that was literally more than half a lifetime ago that I worked on it, and it made me five grand, so I'll never be embarrassed about its cheesiness!)

Lufia 2 imitates Lufia 1's plot and framing, but is nowhere near as effective. Higher production values, but nowhere near the impact. So even if Lufia 2 did literally everything else better, it left nothing like the same impression on me.

Ok cool, childhood memories and stuff, but I didn't play those games as a child, I played them much later with an emulator. And the one thing I really remember about Lufia1 is that when I played Lufia2, I thought, man, Lufia 2 is just better in every way.

 

[Cromwell]

The thing in Lufia 2 that has always stuck with me is that it sets up a fairly simple, but effective, story arc including elements like love and loss that are well done, especially in the limitations of the time

I still remember what happens at the finale and how sad young me was.

 

[MRY]

Lufia becomes way less painful with an emulator since you can accelerate battles!

And, no, it’s not just childhood memories! Lufia 1 has a way better intro! Fact!

 

[Tigranes]

https://www.moddb.com/mods/one-vision1

Wouldn't replay vanilla without it.

That's for PSP, right? So PSP + One Vision is the Kodex Konsensus? I expect it'll help the clunkiness as well but I hear the "shared job level" thing is fucked up.

 

[victim]

Jeanne d'Arc:

I actually finally finished this, after emulation troubles last few times I tried. I would generally recommend. It's a bit too easy once you figure out how to chain the transform kills, and I am very disappointed that the story threw out the historical stuff completely halfway through and went all into 9 year old cartoon demon fantasy.

throwing out the history pretty much ruined it for me, so much potential unrealized