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John Walker criticized: "Not Just Solid Food, But Real Food"

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This deserves exposure outside the BTE.

http://www.mediumdifficulty.com/2012/04/10/not-just-solid-food-but-real-food/

Not Just Solid Food, But Real Food
by Joseph Hilgard

I was excited to see that John Walker wrote a piece calling for more mature games. My excitement faded, however, when I saw that he approached this admirable goal in completely the wrong way – talking about games’ stories and themes.

Walker criticizes games for their immature “game content” and wants to know when video games will take on more serious themes. I feel that this is an ineffective, piecemeal approach, like an amateur filmmaker deciding that it’s time to win an Oscar by making a movie about the Holocaust.

I always suspect that this criticism, that games are insufficiently “mature,” comes from our old, gnawing feelings of Game Shame. To some degree, every player wishes that his games were somehow equivalent to the canonical works of art, and that time spent playing Dark Souls was as respected or valuable as time spent reading War and Peace. (It’s not, laments Slate.com’s Michael Thomsen.)

There seems to be some expectation that games are young and will yet evolve into something respectable, which completely ignores that we have games which are nearly three thousand years old. We even have games which are so popular that it is socially acceptable to cosplay as your favorite character in public. These are called sports. Anyway, I do not know how to make video games respected. I do know, however, how to make a boring game by chasing hopelessly after respectability – obsessing over theme and content.

In his rebuttal to the Slate.com piece mentioned earlier, Edge.com’s Jason Killingsworth writes: “Though it’s possible to debate whether or not games are art, there’s no room to argue that games are books. They function in dramatically different ways and games arguably become weaker the more slavishly they aspire to mimic the conventions of other mediums. [...] Thomsen is unable to engage games on their own terms because he seems incapable of seeing beyond the superficial thematic level.”

When I read articles like Walker’s, I feel the same way. To criticize a game for not having the daring to meditate on love and loss or to end in your avatar’s suicide is like criticizing the Ford Pinto for being the wrong color. The cosmetic details may not be to your liking, but to really understand what makes the Pinto a good car or bad car, you have to open up the hood and think about what the car does, how the car works, and why it explodes when you look at it the wrong way.

Roger Ebert had a law he’d apply in his critiques: “A movie is not what it is about. It is how it is about it.” Games are the same way. It doesn’t matter what you say your game is about, because that is all just window dressing. Granted, a good theme certainly does make a good game better, especially for RPGs and virtual worlds; I deeply appreciated Fallout: New Vegas and its Country Western sensibilities. However, you can never get by on theme alone. By the tenth or twentieth hour of play, all that theme has melted away, leaving the game’s core of rules, mechanics, dynamics, and goals.

The defining feature of a game is, and will always be, play. Happily, games are staggeringly diverse and create a diversity of forms of play. In my closet I have games played through calculation, dexterity, trading, deceit, humor, language, geometry, and teamwork – and these are only the board games!

Games are only as valuable as their play. We respect chess as the grandfather of strategy games because playing it requires caution and cunning. We envy players of football and basketball because playing well implies that you are physically fit and socially capable. We cast sidelong glances at poker players because they must be cunning and deceitful. It’s how we play games, not what the games are about, that’s important.

If we want the “solid food” that will bring video games into maturity, we must ask for richer gameplay dynamics and new challenges. We need to play something different that challenges us as players, not yet another game where you hide behind waist-high barriers and trade gunfire in the Middle East / the future / Liberty City / the Old West.

Dressing up the theme around our games changes nothing. It is a lazy way to try to make your game more mature. If we called in Todd McFarlane, artist of the heinously 90′s comic book Spawn, to give Mario a remake, the result would be superficially more mature, but the game would remain the same enjoyable action-platformer. To really bring about these challenging feelings that Walker wants, the gameplay has to support the message and help to create those aesthetics, which demands much more artistry from developers and a more adventurous audience.

To date, many games with heavy themes have failed to support them with gameplay. For example, Bioshock claimed to be an insightful game for a more mature, contemplative sort of player. It was, we’re told, about the perils of libertarianism and unchecked genetic manipulation. Supposedly, the game is about the importance of humanity and kindness. I wouldn’t know, because the game I played was mostly interested in how efficiently I could shoot the mentally deranged. The heavy theme is not supported by the way the player plays. This approach is all style and no substance. It is pandering to our longing to be taken seriously but delivering nothing in return.

Many of our celebrated initial attempts at serious themes suffer from similar clashes of gameplay and theme. In Grand Theft Auto 4, Niko is written by the developers as a war vet struggling for redemption but played by the player as a mass-murdering sociopath. Compare this with the superior The Saboteur, in which the character’s motivation is always to kill Nazis, both in and out of cutscenes. Fallout 3 wishes to be about post-apocalyptic scarcity and the struggle for survival, but the player carries a limitless cornucopia of weightless health and ammunition on his back. Again, compare with the superior S.T.A.L.K.E.R., in which the player can carry little and must constantly forage for weapons, ammo, food, and vodka.

Walker suggests that games are still immature because their thematic subject matter is immature, citing that “[it's] impossible and uncommercial for a game to have a gay protagonist.” Give any video game out there a gay protagonist, and you have changed nothing about that game. Turn Marcus Feenix gay and you have simply Gears of War with a gay protagonist. In a system of play that has nothing to do with homosexuality, you have just another superficial element.

This is not to say that games shouldn’t have gay characters (or serious themes), but that it is largely irrelevant to how they play. This is one of the beautiful things about games. Games are justice. Games exist within a magic circle in which the only goal is to win and the only virtue is to play well. It doesn’t matter what race, gender, or sexuality your avatar or teammates are – the only important thing is how you play. To keep Jackie Robinson off your baseball team because of his race would be an act of pure idiocy.

In the excellent interactive fiction cover-shooter Gun Mute, you don’t realize that your character is gay until you win the game, rescuing, not your girlfriend, but your boyfriend. The question of the character’s sexuality doesn’t come up during gameplay because whether you like boys or girls has nothing to do with taking cover and shooting a pistol. In games, it is irrelevant whether you are black, white, tall, short, fat, thin, young, or old, because your value as a player is in your ability to play.

Because of the importance of play, games are not well-suited for discussions of or meditations on heavy themes like mortality, love, loss, sexuality, et cetera. Games are made of rules and enforce those rules, judging the player based on the player’s performance.

Games are didactic – each game teaches the lesson of how to play it well. This complicates attempts by a game’s writers to explore deep, emotional concepts. Consider romances in Persona 3: because the player gains in power as he becomes socially “closer” to his friends, the player will strive to become as close as possible to as many friends as possible. This results in the skilled player having a harem of five or six desperately committed lovers by the end of the game. By making romance a gameplay mechanism (grow in power as you gain romances) the theme is twisted and forced (every player, no matter how monogamous his intent, must foster a harem).

There are many other examples of how theme is trampled underfoot by the directing influence of gameplay systems. In Tropico, you might be interested in making your citizens as happy as possible, but funneling money into your Swiss Bank Account is a much more effective way to gain points. It may not make sense to hack into a computer you know the password for, but you will do just that in Deus Ex: Human Revolution because it awards you necessary experience points.

Games shape and direct behavior, which does not allow for discussion or ambiguity. Games are not the place to experience your son’s funeral, because then your son’s funeral will be minmaxed. You would be better off exploring such themes in other media, like books, movies, or even visual novels.

Often, when I read articles like Walker’s, I get the distinct impression that the author is looking for something that isn’t a game. To discredit games without heavy themes as simply “sources of distraction-entertainment… shooting cans off walls” is to completely and infuriatingly miss the elegance and genius of Chess, Go, sports, Bridge, Pictionary, Doom 2, Spacechem, Starcraft, and Tetris. He’s watching a football game and disappointed that it’s not ballet, oblivious that a great play or a masterful kick has a beauty all of its own.

Instead, he wants a movie in which he gets to be the protagonist. I am not sure that I understand the value of this sort of medium – to me, as a player, there’s nothing special about a movie where you can point the camera someplace wrong or the lead actor can miss his mark, making the other characters cough and whine and fart nervously until he gets it right. I won’t be so pigheaded as to say that such a medium would never have anything to offer me – I do really enjoy a little interactive fiction sometimes – but to compare these hybrid mutants to the richness and fullness of a game seems downright unfair. I would rather be a fencer than be an actor playing one.

If we want our games to provide us with real nourishment, I would argue that the last thing we need is last year’s shooter wrapped in some awkward story about love and loss, or yet another indie platformer about the inevitability of mortality. We don’t need superficially serious themes. We need new and interesting games which provide novel and challenging forms of play. These criticisms of theme only scrape the outer skin of a game, failing to pierce through into the rich, savory meat of play. Do we want real food, or just garnish?

Joe Hilgard is a social psychologist and enthusiastic player of board games, video games, and sports. He writes a blog at http://crystalprisonzone.blogspot.com and can be followed on Twitter as hipscumbag.
 

sea

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Great article and very well said. Theme is not a substitute for quality discussion, and you can have quality discussion about just about any subject. Unfortunately I think just about every game developer out there knows this - these aesthetic choices are largely made by marketing and not developers.
 

hiver

Guest
ffs... lets just take any article on its superficial surface and completely forget that "the inside of the game" is fucking included in thinking about this issue, rather than just the story or theme the game deals with.

So, i can ...hurr...durr...make a better...hurr...durr... article because...hurr durrr... i pointed how original is... duh!... "wrong".
 

hipscumbag

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ffs... lets just take any article on its superficial surface and completely forget that "the inside of the game" is fucking included in thinking about this issue, rather than just the story or theme the game deals with.

So, i can ...hurr...durr...make a better...hurr...durr... article because...hurr durrr... i pointed how original is... duh!... "wrong".

I don't know, man. Walker was pretty adamant in asking for games that dealt with themes like "love" or "suicide" - things that don't really lend themselves to play. ("This isn't a game!" you scream while minmaxers speedrun your son's funeral.)

Walker said:
For goodness sake, even Jennifer Aniston movies have more to say about love than all of gaming put together, and what Jennifer Aniston movies have to say about love is, “Durrrrrrrr.” Where is our commentary? Where is our criticism? Where is our subversion? Where is the game that questions governments, challenges society, hell, asks a bloody question? Let alone issues. Good heavens, imagine a game that dealt with issues!

He also dismisses games that don't treat themselves to serious themes as immature, ignoring that many of our oldest and most treasured and respected games (i.e. chess, sports) are essentially themeless, perhaps even meaningless outside themselves.

Walker said:
Before the angries do what they do best, I am not, ever, arguing that all games should be like this. I understand and embrace the significant role games play in people’s lives as a source of distraction-entertainment, and I enjoy shooting cans off walls as much as anyone else. [...] But I also want other games to grow the hell up. [...] I want a game that’s too difficult for me to understand.

It's this suggestion that games aren't sufficiently mature unless they try to grapple with things like love or mortality - things which, arguably, only the heartless could treat as a game - I find so wrongheaded. As I point out, it dismisses chess, go, sports, doom 2, tetris, etc etc etc as somehow being inferior to these first-person software movies, and that is wrong.
 

Cowboy Moment

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Curious what the author thinks about horror games. They would appear to contradict some of his points, insofar as they usually do not present the player with a system that needs to be mastered, but rather attempt to invoke a particular emotional response, with the system supporting this goal (well, in good horror games anyway).

Or, in a more general sense, do games need to be about mastering a system? Does there need to be challenge? A need to win? Some reviewer called Crusader Kings 2 a game that "succeeds in making losing fun". Though there is no win condition in CK2, there are points awarded for playing the game "properly", and this does require understanding the game's mechanics. However, it can be just as fun to start as a random Iberian count and watch the world burn around you. So what about that kind of experience? Still a game, or just a good interactive simulation?
 

hipscumbag

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Curious what the author thinks about horror games. They would appear to contradict some of his points, insofar as they usually do not present the player with a system that needs to be mastered, but rather attempt to invoke a particular emotional response, with the system supporting this goal (well, in good horror games anyway).

Or, in a more general sense, do games need to be about mastering a system? Does there need to be challenge? A need to win? Some reviewer called Crusader Kings 2 a game that "succeeds in making losing fun". Though there is no win condition in CK2, there are points awarded for playing the game "properly", and this does require understanding the game's mechanics. However, it can be just as fun to start as a random Iberian count and watch the world burn around you. So what about that kind of experience? Still a game, or just a good interactive simulation?

Well, if you wanted to really get into the semantics of what are formally defined as games (I certainly don't want to right now!), you might read Juul 2004 "The Game, The Player, The World" and some of the controversy around it.

Broadly I'd say that there are a number of different ways to have fun with software. Some are "games" in that they are systems to be played, mastered, and won (or at least scored well in). Others are simulations or toys - you might play with CK2 like this sometimes, firing up a small territory and just horsing around with it, watching the simulation unfold, not necessarily playing to win. The final way, and what I think Walker most closely describes, is something more like Holodeck, an interactive first-person storytelling medium, like a tabletop RPG session brought to life through software.

Which of these you're looking to make is going to mean a lot for how much theme matters. I took exception to Walker's article because, as I understood it, it argues that games grow up into first-person storytelling when they reach maturity. It's like saying that one day football needs to grow up and become ballet.
 

grotsnik

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Curious what the author thinks about horror games. They would appear to contradict some of his points, insofar as they usually do not present the player with a system that needs to be mastered, but rather attempt to invoke a particular emotional response, with the system supporting this goal (well, in good horror games anyway).

Sure, but isn't the system uniquely important in invoking that emotional response in horror games? You can scare your reader/viewer/listener across any and all of the media through atmosphere, visual and audio cues, building dramatic tension, etc., and they're obviously all invaluable. But games are in a fascinating position to frighten their players precisely because the bogeymen are presented as challenges that need to be overcome via gameplay in order to win (even if the method of 'overcoming' them is something relatively low-key and impotent that never lets the player feel as if they've mastered the game - bodily fending off the Scissorman, taking photos of ghosts or just having to leg it).

If you're watching a horror movie and you start to suspect something mindbogglingly terrifying is about to happen, you can always hide behind the sofa or press fastforward - the narrative will keep going without you. But in a game you're forced to actively engage with the horror, because you're a participant and directly responsible for keeping the game going. You can't afford to be detached from the experience - instead of closing your eyes, you need to be watching intently for something hideous crawling out of the walls, twitching madly at the keypad with every every noise (or even planning your next strategy), relying on the tools of gameplay to stop that damn monster from eating your PC's face and making you lose.

...that felt like a very overwrought way of saying very little, but you get my point.
 

hiver

Guest
ffs... lets just take any article on its superficial surface and completely forget that "the inside of the game" is fucking included in thinking about this issue, rather than just the story or theme the game deals with.

So, i can ...hurr...durr...make a better...hurr...durr... article because...hurr durrr... i pointed how original is... duh!... "wrong".

I don't know, man. Walker was pretty adamant in asking for games that dealt with themes like "love" or "suicide" - things that don't really lend themselves to play. ("This isn't a game!" you scream while minmaxers speedrun your son's funeral.)

Walker said:
For goodness sake, even Jennifer Aniston movies have more to say about love than all of gaming put together, and what Jennifer Aniston movies have to say about love is, “Durrrrrrrr.” Where is our commentary? Where is our criticism? Where is our subversion? Where is the game that questions governments, challenges society, hell, asks a bloody question? Let alone issues. Good heavens, imagine a game that dealt with issues!

He also dismisses games that don't treat themselves to serious themes as immature, ignoring that many of our oldest and most treasured and respected games (i.e. chess, sports) are essentially themeless, perhaps even meaningless outside themselves.

Walker said:
Before the angries do what they do best, I am not, ever, arguing that all games should be like this. I understand and embrace the significant role games play in people’s lives as a source of distraction-entertainment, and I enjoy shooting cans off walls as much as anyone else. [...] But I also want other games to grow the hell up. [...] I want a game that’s too difficult for me to understand.

It's this suggestion that games aren't sufficiently mature unless they try to grapple with things like love or mortality - things which, arguably, only the heartless could treat as a game - I find so wrongheaded. As I point out, it dismisses chess, go, sports, doom 2, tetris, etc etc etc as somehow being inferior to these first-person software movies, and that is wrong.
Walker is simply right. You cannot talk about more adult themes just through gameplay. The story, the characters the relations, choice and consequence all have to be there - including fcking mechanics because one without the other means SHIIIIIIT!!!!!
Its just that he didnt cover mechanics angle to this issue and good doctor jumped on it interpreting it as if its intentional mistake or lack of knowledge.

btw, Walker is one of the weaker (or my least favorite) writers at RPS and has written a LOT OF SHIT, including an apologetic excusing rubbish about ass effect 3 but in this article he was right.
What the doctor should have done is : form his article as an addition to Walkers, instead of this.
 

Renegen

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I have to agree and say that this is a good post. This explains quite well why I consider Deus Ex the best game ever. You are JC Denton. From the way you decide to play, pacifist, hacker or agile nano-agent, to howthe story is revealed around you and how the character of JC Denton struggles with the challenges around him, you are JC Denton. And of course this game can sometimes be confused for a real future and doesn't shy from having a lot of depth since the very beginning.
 

lightbane

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A good read. However, Persona 3 is even worse than he says: One of the game's main themes is death and everything related to it. There are points that the game tries SO HARD to be grim that's hilarious, finishing with an ending so inane that Atlus made a "special edition" to include extra content and a new, playable endgame to "explain" the original ending (yes, they did that years before Bioware had the same idea).
 

Phelot

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Someone should make The Brothers Karamazov: The Game

"Updated my journal. Find out why Father Zosima's corpse stinks."
 

Roguey

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YCS/Bad Game and RPG Codex are colliding. I don't like it.

I did like the article though and I hope John Walker huffs and puffs and says "Good grief!" several times about it.
 

Renegen

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A good read. However, Persona 3 is even worse than he says: One of the game's main themes is death and everything related to it. There are points that the game tries SO HARD to be grim that's hilarious, finishing with an ending so inane that Atlus made a "special edition" to include extra content and a new, playable endgame to "explain" the original ending (yes, they did that years before Bioware had the same idea).
I think you're the one who takes this so seriously. The game is 100 hours long, all I remember of the Persona 3 ending is that I reached it. The last 20 hours are pretty much blank in my memory, and I gather in the developer's memories too. They just wanted to ship the game, and put a bunch of boss battles one after the other with some stupid text, and we the players just wanted to finish the game and didn't pay attention to anything.
 

hiver

Guest
Enjoy the adversity, hipscumbag. It will make your articles stronger.
aahhh zo...
Wunderbar!

/

No, really, i never saw any of that stuff in walkers article, especially not anything about first person pov...
The only misgiving there might be that the article is written too much considering only AAA publisher games, but thats what RPS is there for, mostly.
Then again, we see many new indie games stepping into these areas, for example - not only in their stories but through mechanics and gameplay.
 

BLOBERT

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ffs... lets just take any article on its superficial surface and completely forget that "the inside of the game" is fucking included in thinking about this issue, rather than just the story or theme the game deals with.

So, i can ...hurr...durr...make a better...hurr...durr... article because...hurr durrr... i pointed how original is... duh!... "wrong".

BRO ACTUALLY THE SECOND ARTICLE BROUGHT UP THE GREAT POINT THAT A GREAT STORY IS RENDERED STUPID IF THE PLAYERS ACTIONS CONTRADICT IT IE GTA 4 WHERE STRUGGLING OVER THE REVENGE KILLING IS LAME WHEN YOU RUN DOWN PEDESTRIANS FOR FUN DURING GAMEPLAY

BRO THIS QUOTE I THINK SAID ALOT

Supposedly, the game is about the importance of humanity and kindness. I wouldn’t know, because the game I played was mostly interested in how efficiently I could shoot the mentally deranged.
 

MaroonSkein

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While I strongly agree that video games should be games first and stories second, he makes some weird points.
Games are didactic – each game teaches the lesson of how to play it well. This complicates attempts by a game’s writers to explore deep, emotional concepts. Consider romances in Persona 3: because the player gains in power as he becomes socially “closer” to his friends, the player will strive to become as close as possible to as many friends as possible. This results in the skilled player having a harem of five or six desperately committed lovers by the end of the game. By making romance a gameplay mechanism (grow in power as you gain romances) the theme is twisted and forced (every player, no matter how monogamous his intent, must foster a harem).
Forced romances in P3 are very annoying, but they don't undermine anything. Monogamy is not a theme that the game explores. The real dissonance lies in the game's generally edgy atmosphere, which doesn't fit the central theme: realizing the inevitability of death and living the life to its fullest, wasting no time worrying about things you can't avert or change. Thank gods for P3P and the cheerful female protagonist.
There are many other examples of how theme is trampled underfoot by the directing influence of gameplay systems. In Tropico, you might be interested in making your citizens as happy as possible, but funneling money into your Swiss Bank Account is a much more effective way to gain points.
The main difference between Tropico and other city building games is that you are not a benevolent ruler, but a wacky dictator. Encouraging the player to care more about his avatar's wallet than about the good of his subjects reinforces the theme, not undermines it.
 

hiver

Guest
ffs... lets just take any article on its superficial surface and completely forget that "the inside of the game" is fucking included in thinking about this issue, rather than just the story or theme the game deals with.

So, i can ...hurr...durr...make a better...hurr...durr... article because...hurr durrr... i pointed how original is... duh!... "wrong".

BRO ACTUALLY THE SECOND ARTICLE BROUGHT UP THE GREAT POINT THAT A GREAT STORY IS RENDERED STUPID IF THE PLAYERS ACTIONS CONTRADICT IT IE GTA 4 WHERE STRUGGLING OVER THE REVENGE KILLING IS LAME WHEN YOU RUN DOWN PEDESTRIANS FOR FUN DURING GAMEPLAY

BRO THIS QUOTE I THINK SAID ALOT

Supposedly, the game is about the importance of humanity and kindness. I wouldn’t know, because the game I played was mostly interested in how efficiently I could shoot the mentally deranged.
Yeah but walker wasnt talking about retarded gta4 was he?
 

hipscumbag

Educated
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A good read. However, Persona 3 is even worse than he says: One of the game's main themes is death and everything related to it. There are points that the game tries SO HARD to be grim that's hilarious, finishing with an ending so inane that Atlus made a "special edition" to include extra content and a new, playable endgame to "explain" the original ending (yes, they did that years before Bioware had the same idea).

I didn't play Persona 3 for very long, but a friend told me something neat. If you manage to max out all your S-Links, a feat pretty much impossible unless you're using a strategy guide to tell everyone exactly what they want to hear, an NPC gives you a special reward and calls you "A mask with nothing beneath" - kind of calling you out for not really playing the game & just minmaxing the relationships. I think that's a cute idea, the way the game has a meta-awareness that people couldn't 100% it without solving it with a guide.

I stopped playing it after I told my schoolfriend that he wasn't going to doink the teacher & he get pissy and the S-Link reversed. Playing "guess what the dev says is the right answer" isn't my idea of fun.

Forced romances in P3 are very annoying, but they don't undermine anything. Monogamy is not a theme that the game explores. The real dissonance lies in the game's generally edgy atmosphere, which doesn't fit the central theme: realizing the inevitability of death and living the life to its fullest, wasting no time worrying about things you can't avert or change. Thank gods for P3P and the cheerful female protagonist.

The main difference between Tropico and other city building games is that you are not a benevolent ruler, but a wacky dictator. Encouraging the player to care more about his avatar's wallet than about the good of his subjects reinforces the theme, not undermines it.

These are good points, and I would never suggest that Tropico's theme doesn't match its gameplay. What I meant to say in that section is that gameplay enforces behavior, which makes it arguably a weak medium for themes which should not be played with, trivialized, or solved, like love or suicide or religion or etc. That Tropico encourages you to steal from your people is good ludo-narrative congruency. However, because it is a game and it measures your performance, it tells you that stealing from your people is more important than making them happy. Gameplay shapes and reinforces behavior.

Let's go back to the "son's funeral game" example. If this is a game, that implies that there's some way to win or at least score points. That implies that certain ways of experiencing your son's funeral are preferable to others, and that there is potentially a best way to experience the funeral. Is that really appropriate? Should these serious themes be put in a medium where they can be solved, minmaxed, speedrun?

We're eager to think that games can be anything, because we like games. But games have been around for thousands of years, and games aren't books or movies, even interactive ones.
 

deuxhero

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A good read. However, Persona 3 is even worse than he says: One of the game's main themes is death and everything related to it. There are points that the game tries SO HARD to be grim that's hilarious, finishing with an ending so inane that Atlus made a "special edition" to include extra content and a new, playable endgame to "explain" the original ending (yes, they did that years before Bioware had the same idea).

Which is why Persona 4 is better. Not only does it allow non-romantic ends to social links, but it will stop whining about the end of the world often enough to have fun with itself and its cast.
 

Groof

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96
Haha, John Walker.

You guys seen this thing?

We're eager to think that games can be anything, because we like games.

Yeah, only I don't think John Walker and his kind likes games to begin with. "What games aren't like" and "skipping parts of games" and such seems to excite him more than any actual games.
 

BLOBERT

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Codex 2012
Yeah but walker wasnt talking about retarded gta4 was he?

BRO I DONT THINK SO I JUST REREAD IT AGAIN

THE ORIGINAL ARTICLE ONLY MENTIONED STORY AND I AGREE WITH THE BRO ABOVE THAT ADDING FAGS OR EMOTIONAL DRAMA JUST AS AN ADDED CUTSCENE ISNT REALLY DOING ANYTHING MATURE ESPECIALLY WHEN IT DOES NOT MATCH THE GAMEPLAY
 

Condiments

Educated
Joined
Nov 10, 2011
Messages
72
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Shoulder of Orion
A good read. However, Persona 3 is even worse than he says: One of the game's main themes is death and everything related to it. There are points that the game tries SO HARD to be grim that's hilarious, finishing with an ending so inane that Atlus made a "special edition" to include extra content and a new, playable endgame to "explain" the original ending (yes, they did that years before Bioware had the same idea).

I didn't play Persona 3 for very long, but a friend told me something neat. If you manage to max out all your S-Links, a feat pretty much impossible unless you're using a strategy guide to tell everyone exactly what they want to hear, an NPC gives you a special reward and calls you "A mask with nothing beneath" - kind of calling you out for not really playing the game & just minmaxing the relationships. I think that's a cute idea, the way the game has a meta-awareness that people couldn't 100% it without solving it with a guide.

I stopped playing it after I told my schoolfriend that he wasn't going to doink the teacher & he get pissy and the S-Link reversed. Playing "guess what the dev says is the right answer" isn't my idea of fun.

I haven't played any of the Persona games, but I actually don't have a problem with things like Social Links as a mechanic because it ties building relationships to combat. Sure it might be min maxed, or broken if players follow guides, but that is a reality of most things that exist in RPGs when powergamers are involved. Sounds like it wasn't implemented well, but I think at its core it remains a good idea.

Its a good article though. I don't mind themes in games superfluous to gameplay as they add flavor(Silent Hill 2's for example), and its even better when gameplay supports the themes. They're not inherently BETTER than regular games, but its nice to see diversity here and there.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
Curious what the author thinks about horror games. They would appear to contradict some of his points, insofar as they usually do not present the player with a system that needs to be mastered, but rather attempt to invoke a particular emotional response, with the system supporting this goal (well, in good horror games anyway).

Or, in a more general sense, do games need to be about mastering a system? Does there need to be challenge? A need to win? Some reviewer called Crusader Kings 2 a game that "succeeds in making losing fun". Though there is no win condition in CK2, there are points awarded for playing the game "properly", and this does require understanding the game's mechanics. However, it can be just as fun to start as a random Iberian count and watch the world burn around you. So what about that kind of experience? Still a game, or just a good interactive simulation?

Well, if you wanted to really get into the semantics of what are formally defined as games (I certainly don't want to right now!), you might read Juul 2004 "The Game, The Player, The World" and some of the controversy around it.

Broadly I'd say that there are a number of different ways to have fun with software. Some are "games" in that they are systems to be played, mastered, and won (or at least scored well in). Others are simulations or toys - you might play with CK2 like this sometimes, firing up a small territory and just horsing around with it, watching the simulation unfold, not necessarily playing to win. The final way, and what I think Walker most closely describes, is something more like Holodeck, an interactive first-person storytelling medium, like a tabletop RPG session brought to life through software.

Which of these you're looking to make is going to mean a lot for how much theme matters. I took exception to Walker's article because, as I understood it, it argues that games grow up into first-person storytelling when they reach maturity. It's like saying that one day football needs to grow up and become ballet.

Nah, I'm not interested in discussing semantics either, I was just curious what your opinion on less "gamey" gameplay was. It sort of ties in to the "tackling serious issues in games" problem, where you believe it's a lost cause, and the very nature of "play" makes this impossible. I would be inclined to disagree with that notion - I do think your "son's funeral" example is not very well suited to being explored via a game. But I do think there are themes that could lend themselves to being explored through gameplay.

Take Far Cry 2. It kinda, sorta, tried to deal with a bunch of serious issues concerning Western involvement in developing African countries, and specifically the way arms trade, the presence of valuable natural resources (diamonds specifically in FC2), and mercenary armies combine together to create a vicious cycle of chaos and death. Of course, this didn't work, because the game was about driving around an open world, killing respawning enemies in funny ways, and fire physics. But I don't see any reason why it should be impossible to make an FPS which would indeed approach these problems in a mature way. You say the fact that there is an "optimal" way of playing will always screw this up, but I think making the "optimal" way the one where the player massacres the natives, escapes safely with a suitcase full of diamonds, and is then seen relaxing on a beach somewhere, would be perfectly in line with the theme.

The bigger problem, I think, is that there are simply no developers out there, capable of pulling something like that off convincingly. And even if there were, nobody would publish it.

Finally, a simple example of what I have in mind: Defcon. Honestly, Defcon explains the horror of nuclear war better than any amount of Hiroshima documentaries and post-apocalyptic imaginings. The abstract presentation (basically just a map with dots and numbers) does not hurt it in the slightest, and the message is delivered purely through gameplay - even if you win, most of your population is dead and your infrastructure lies in ruins.

By the way, have you played Pathologic or The Void?


Curious what the author thinks about horror games. They would appear to contradict some of his points, insofar as they usually do not present the player with a system that needs to be mastered, but rather attempt to invoke a particular emotional response, with the system supporting this goal (well, in good horror games anyway).

Sure, but isn't the system uniquely important in invoking that emotional response in horror games? You can scare your reader/viewer/listener across any and all of the media through atmosphere, visual and audio cues, building dramatic tension, etc., and they're obviously all invaluable. But games are in a fascinating position to frighten their players precisely because the bogeymen are presented as challenges that need to be overcome via gameplay in order to win (even if the method of 'overcoming' them is something relatively low-key and impotent that never lets the player feel as if they've mastered the game - bodily fending off the Scissorman, taking photos of ghosts or just having to leg it).

If you're watching a horror movie and you start to suspect something mindbogglingly terrifying is about to happen, you can always hide behind the sofa or press fastforward - the narrative will keep going without you. But in a game you're forced to actively engage with the horror, because you're a participant and directly responsible for keeping the game going. You can't afford to be detached from the experience - instead of closing your eyes, you need to be watching intently for something hideous crawling out of the walls, twitching madly at the keypad with every every noise (or even planning your next strategy), relying on the tools of gameplay to stop that damn monster from eating your PC's face and making you lose.

...that felt like a very overwrought way of saying very little, but you get my point.

The point I was trying to make, is that most games start with a gameplay concept - an FPS, a third-person action game, a point-and-click adventure game, and so forth. Horror games, on the other hand, start with the intent of scaring the player, and the actual gameplay is designed as a way to achieve this, and not just for its own sake. That's why Silent Hill has crappy combat with poor controls and annoying camera angles. Mechanically, it's just bad combat, but it serves its purpose by not being fun for the player.

Challenge is actually a tricky thing to get right in a horror game, but I've already written enough about this in that stupid thread that gets endlessly bumped.
 

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