Official Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failure with Pillars of Eternity

Discussion in 'Obsidian Entertainment' started by Roguey, Nov 3, 2019.

  1. Roguey Arcane Sawyerite

    Roguey
    Joined:
    May 29, 2010
    Messages:
    27,652
    This would also mean that White March sales could be higher than you think. :M

    Now you're getting it.
     
    ^ Top  
  2. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    11,619
    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    If there is anything Josh has done well in terms of gameplay design, it is to remove pre-buffing. It might make sense to pre-buff yourself from a narrative standpoint, but from a gameplay perspective it's just tedious busywork that adds nothing. It's muuuch better to actively think whether to buff or to use other things in combat.

    Either way, the system isn't what kept normies away from PoE2. Nobody analyses this thing outside of dedicated forums like this one.


    Before Steamspy went all anal, I think we knew the exactish number of WM copies sold, but I'm not sure about this at all. Either way, yes, WM's sales could've been higher than I think, but is it enough to think PoE2 would sell an equal amount of copies or even more? I doubt it.

    As for me now getting it, DLC is being created, so there's definitely something going on there.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
    • Disagree Disagree x 5
    • Brofist Brofist x 4
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Shit Shit x 1
    ^ Top  
  3. AW8 Arcane

    AW8
    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2013
    Messages:
    1,615
    Location:
    North of Poland
    Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Josh originally cut ship combat because he didn't feel it was good, but Feargus put it back in as a stretch goal. Making it in CYOA form is the only realistic implementation on Deadfire's budget.

    So this particular complaint should be sent up the chain, to Feargus.
     
    • Rage Rage x 2
    • hopw roewur ne hopw roewur ne x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    ^ Top  
  4. nikolokolus Arcane

    nikolokolus
    Joined:
    May 8, 2013
    Messages:
    3,674
    I look at POE1 as a competently made, very ernest game that was desperately trying to keep the lights on, but never appeared to be the product of somebody's desperate need to get a unique creative vision out in the world. The result was a bland, apathetic, "paint by numbers" experience that I eventually set aside and never looked back. POE2's promise of more of the same made it easy to take a hard pass.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    ^ Top  
  5. RickOmbo Learned

    RickOmbo
    Joined:
    May 24, 2019
    Messages:
    199
    It's like pre-christmas christmas.
     
    • Funny Funny x 5
    • nice nice x 2
    ^ Top  
  6. Kyl Von Kull The Night Tripper Patron

    Kyl Von Kull
    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2017
    Messages:
    3,132
    Location:
    Jamrock District
    Yes!!! Pretty sure it was Fenstermaker, but either way “the gods are man-made and this asshole’s been working hard to keep it a secret” is a lot more low key than “the gods are real and they’re about to go to war.” Or “the gods are real/fake and they need to consume human souls to prevent some looming catastrophe.” The twist at the end of POE is what you get when your boss wants you to tell a story about a titanic struggle between the gods and you don’t like that idea at all.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • Yes Yes x 1
    ^ Top  
  7. Stokowski Arcane

    Stokowski
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    3,650
    Location:
    Gehenna
    I'm not sure I follow. Casting a spell once at the start of a dungeon level is more "tedious busywork" than casting the same spell at the start of every combat?

    Or are you thinking that those abilities should all be removed and all fear/fire/whatever resistance is fixed to gear or permanent features of class or species?
     
    • Bro, do you even lift? Bro, do you even lift? x 1
    • it is a mystery it is a mystery x 1
    ^ Top  
  8. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    11,619
    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    If you are casting the same buff every encounter, or have it constantly up anyway, there's something wrong. Either the encounters are trashy, copy-pasted time-wasters, or pre-buffing exists but should be baked into the classes and not be an extra button to push after every rest. What I mean is that it's better to weigh the pros and cons of buffing, debuffing, damaging, healing etc. than the buffing layer being exclusively out of combat. It just makes more sense gameplay-wise.
     
    • Disagree x 6
    • Brofist x 1
    • Agree x 1
    • meh x 1
    • Rage x 1
    • Informative x 1
    • "It was Aliens" x 1
    • Shit x 1
    ^ Top  
  9. Efe Arbiter

    Efe
    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2015
    Messages:
    1,659
    he could have limited prebuffing, by stacking constraints or by limiting active amount.
    you can even keep that buff active at all times in a "buff slot" so you dont cast it every encounter.

    removing it outright helped how? seems to me he just randomly tore away at existing systems to fix a relatively small problem.
     
    ^ Top  
  10. Mr. Magniloquent Savant

    Mr. Magniloquent
    Joined:
    May 31, 2018
    Messages:
    651
    Location:
    The Present
    Cons
    1. Try-hard not-D&D rip-off.
    2. Terrible, narrow, gimmicky classes
    3. Gimmicky, awkward, boring spells.
    4. Gimmicky disatisfying talents.
    5. Boring, directionless plot.
    6. Needlessly abstract statistics.
    7. Lore dumps.
    8. BALANCE.
    9. Mediocre companions.
    Pros
    1. Nice art direction.
     
    • Agree x 6
    • Brofist x 2
    • Edgy x 1
    • Yes x 1
    • retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  11. ga♥ Liturgist

    ga♥
    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2017
    Messages:
    1,699
    Your whole paragraph is retarded. You are attributing the success IE games attained to piracy, in a weak way to defend PoE.

    "Ofcourse PoE had less success... there's no piracy anymore" this is what you mean.

    Just go kill yourself retard.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • WTF am I reading WTF am I reading x 1
    • retadred retadred x 1
    ^ Top  
  12. Stokowski Arcane

    Stokowski
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    3,650
    Location:
    Gehenna
    Yeah, but did you see the suit on that guy?

    One is immediate and memorable (ouch, you fucker!), the other is abstracted (I have a home? I'm supposed to care about it? OK ... ).

    If I survive being shot in the head I'm a badass (though possibly brain-damaged too). If I "survive" death by ending up chatting with the god of death, then what have I really lost? (Other than a fear of death.) Guess I'm literally a chosen one ... again ... strong deja vu, much apathy.

    :M
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Brofist Brofist x 3
    • nice nice x 1
    ^ Top  
  13. Lacrymas Arcane

    Lacrymas
    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2015
    Messages:
    11,619
    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    Why limit it when what he has done makes perfect sense in terms of gameplay? Besides, food is prebuffing, so he couldn't remove every bit of it.
     
    ^ Top  
  14. Xeon Augur

    Xeon
    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2013
    Messages:
    1,741
    I don't think you always need buffing for fights aside from bosses but I still like pre-buffing. Its more efficient, for example you can just pre-buff fully and full burst every encounter in the map and clear them up before they run out.
     
    ^ Top  
  15. Stokowski Arcane

    Stokowski
    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2011
    Messages:
    3,650
    Location:
    Gehenna
    OK. I can see it's easy for a game to devolve into too much of that - copy-pasted activity forced by copy-pasted encounters - but the alternative seems to be to remove thematic elements from combat areas. And I think that's throwing away too much. Fires caves are cool, y'know ... well, they're ackshully hot, but ... themed sites for extended combat encounters are not something I would want done away with (or even watered down, too much). It's still possible to have varied combat encounters within a themed area in which a long-term buff (or two) makes both narrative and gameplay sense.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  16. Trashos Arcane

    Trashos
    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2015
    Messages:
    2,438
    Benny, as he appears in FONV's introductory clip, is still an internet meme. Not only had he shot you in the head and buried you, but he was that cool charming dude in an impressive suit. His dialogue in the clip was good. The ambience was good. Someone there had a vision for Benny, he was not "by the numbers". That clip was impressive.
    You could do an exactly same clip conceptually, and it could be a failure. Execution matters. Details matter. Talent matters. Filthy casuals may not be able to articulate why they were impressed, but they know it when they are impressed.

    Anyway, PoE1 (which I have played) was not good enough to create a new following for this type of game (and it had the chance), and Deadfire (which I have not played) was apparently not good enough to ignite any dying fire.

    How do you even sell Deadfire to someone? Pirates!? Everyone is bi!? Better than that PoE1 game that you didn't like much?! Great story about... no, no, the writing is not good, about... you know, all sorts of stuff?!
     
    • Brofist x 23
    • nice x 1
    • Funny x 1
    • Agree x 1
    • meh x 1
    • Yes x 1
    • it is a mystery x 1
    ^ Top  
  17. Butter Magister

    Butter
    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1,958
    You can have certain enemy types cast dispel so that pre-buffing works in general, but can't be relied on for the big encounters. They even did it in a little game called Icewind Dale.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Brofist Brofist x 1
    • Yes Yes x 1
    • Makes you think... Makes you think... x 1
    ^ Top  
  18. ItsChon Resident Zoomer Patron

    ItsChon
    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2018
    Messages:
    3,266
    Location:
    Երևան
    Both of these posts raise an important point. When we talk about how effective a games hook is, we're looking back at it retroactively, after we've already come to some sort of conclusion about whether or not the setting and characters in the world that has been presented to us are interesting. The reason Deadfire's hook is so shit is that the writing in the game is garbage and you quickly come to hate all the stupid shit about the setting and characters that you see. This is why I think talking about hooks is silly, because either the game is engaging and atmospheric or it isn't. I'd love for someone to give me an example of a game with a great story, setting, and characters, that has a weak hook.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • rolleyes rolleyes x 1
    • Doggy Doggy x 1
    ^ Top  
  19. Akratus Self-loathing fascist drunken misogynist asshole Patron

    Akratus
    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    6,332
    Location:
    The Netherlands
    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
     
    • Old Old x 2
    ^ Top  
  20. deuxhero Arcane

    deuxhero
    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2007
    Messages:
    8,660
    Location:
    Flowery Land
    The solution to pre-buffing isn't to remove it, it's to make it attract enemies since spellcasting is loud. Looking at Kingmaker, just having spellcasting cause enemies within X range come investigate would cut down on a lot of the abuse, but let you cast 10 minute/hour per level spells at the start of the dungeon as you logically should.
     
    • Interesting Interesting x 1
    • Balanced Balanced x 1
    ^ Top  
  21. lophiaspis Arbiter

    lophiaspis
    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2012
    Messages:
    378
    Tsk tsk. Shoulda listened to the Codex, Josh.
     
    • Yes Yes x 9
    • Deus Vult Deus Vult x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    ^ Top  
  22. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2017
    Messages:
    21,606
    Location:
    Bulgaria
    Well that is what happens when you ignore places where people that know some real shit about RPGs and focus on twatter and tumbler groups. The problem was the same with all the obsidian games in the past 10 years,bad writing.
     
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Balanced Balanced x 1
    ^ Top  
  23. Yosharian Cipher

    Yosharian
    Joined:
    May 28, 2018
    Messages:
    4,010
    Location:
    Night City
    /thread
     
    ^ Top  
  24. frajaq Arbiter

    frajaq
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,869
    Location:
    Brazil
    all he had to do was take a good look at the % of steam achievs for completing the Acts to realize something went really fucking wrong
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
    • Makes you think... Makes you think... x 1
    ^ Top  
  25. user Learned

    user
    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2019
    Messages:
    478
    They definitely analyzed it in the Obsidian forums when they were trying to convince me of how "needlessly convoluted DnD is". Such nonsense.
    The system is what kept me from the game. The way the stats scaled, same hit system used for both spells and attacks etc.

    And is disabling pre-buffing really that great? Why shouldn't some classes have that utility? And how well was combat balanced so that mosts buffs were worth casting in it? More importantly for me, it feels awkward when for some strange "magical" reason, your character can't cast when enemies are not near him. Got any lore explanations for that?

    Edit: Wanted to register on that forum to read the post myself, but that CAPTCHA is way too hard for me. :(
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 6
    • Brofist Brofist x 2
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.