Eternity Josh Sawyer reflects on his failures with Pillars of Eternity

[vibehunter]

They cannot seem to give up on the bland universe they created, since their new game is still taking place in the Pillars world.

 

[Desiderius]

They cannot seem to give up on the bland universe they created, since their new game is still taking place in the Pillars world.

They're bland people. They've done pretty well with the limited tools they had.

 

[Desiderius]

I remember resting as much as I wanted to (which was a lot) and had no problems with time whatsoever.

You were destroying your kingdom -> missing all the good itemization by doing that.

Your confidence level doesn't match the validity of your points.

 

[AwesomeButton]

The only criticisim I have of the world is that races are mostly intermixed within nations instead of there being segregated dwarf nations, elf nations, etc.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I remember resting as much as I wanted to (which was a lot) and had no problems with time whatsoever.

You were destroying your kingdom -> missing all the good itemization by doing that.

Your confidence level doesn't match the validity of your points.

The time you spend sleeping is insignificant compared to the time you waste getting around and upgrading your Kingdom. If you rest often you lose like 5 in game days per big dungeon or something. On the other hand you need to spend 15 days doing nothing just for a measly rank increase.

 

[Cryomancer]

I remember resting as much as I wanted to (which was a lot) and had no problems with time whatsoever.

You were destroying your kingdom -> missing all the good itemization by doing that.

Your confidence level doesn't match the validity of your points.

The time you spend sleeping is insignificant compared to the time you waste getting around and upgrading your Kingdom. If you rest often you lose like 5 in game days per big dungeon or something. On the other hand you need to spend 15 days doing nothing just for a measly rank increase.

But there are also the supply cost. If you don't have much carrying capacity, how many rests can you make on Vordakai's Tomb? You certainly can't rest after each encounter there.

 

[Haplo]

But calling it overbalanced and bland? That's simply spreading false rumors. Blatant lying.

You seem to be a little confused about the difference between observation and opinion. Let me help you out. "Sawyer is the Messiah reborn": That is a statement of fact. Since he is not, in fact, the messiah (just a very naughty boy), and I know he is not, I would be lying. "Sawyer failed to make the combat fun": This is a statement of opinion. It may be wrong, but since I do not believe it is wrong (in fact I believe the opposite), it cannot be a lie.

I enjoy seeing the character's power develop and grow, discovering and exploiting broken combos and the micro-management aspect

This is a blatant lie! False rumours!

See how this works?

Again, you're not exactly original. And late to the party. People were crying "overbalanced", "no fun allowed", "where's the power in my fantasy" already years ago.


When some simple research about builds and synergies would prove this a nonesense.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I remember resting as much as I wanted to (which was a lot) and had no problems with time whatsoever.

You were destroying your kingdom -> missing all the good itemization by doing that.

Your confidence level doesn't match the validity of your points.

The time you spend sleeping is insignificant compared to the time you waste getting around and upgrading your Kingdom. If you rest often you lose like 5 in game days per big dungeon or something. On the other hand you need to spend 15 days doing nothing just for a measly rank increase.

But there are also the supply cost. If you don't have much carrying capacity, how many rests can you make on Vordakai's Tomb? You certainly can't rest after each encounter there.

IIRC this place is the only dungeon in the game where you are limited by your supplies. I took too little the first time and had to restart halfway through. I think every other dungeon either straight-up allows you to walk out and rest outside or provide some way of replenishing your supplies inside.

EDIT:
Also you can just fill-up all your capacity to a limit, and then just drop your camping supplies near the entrance, and use them later.
You don't need to rest after every encounter. Most buffs last long enough to get you through several fights without needing to be reapplied.

 

[Desiderius]

The time you spend sleeping is insignificant compared to the time you waste getting around and upgrading your Kingdom. If you rest often you lose like 5 in game days per big dungeon or something. On the other hand you need to spend 15 days doing nothing just for a measly rank increase.

It all snowballs. Once I started getting Teleporters up before Womb shit went through the roof. You've got to keep it tight.



It's not trivial to exit Trobold and carrying the Supplies to the dungeons isn't either. Rest spamming just isn't practical or necessary in P:K. I don't know what that guy's talking about.

 

[Haplo]

Limited rests on BG2 would be OK, like it is on other D&D games. Limited rests on Pillars is not. Why? Because spells on BG2 are great, spells on pillars are awful. Having 2 cloudkills per rest is fine. Having 2 "malignant clouds" which deals almost no damage and lasts nothing is not fine. You don't see me complaining that resting requires specific places on knights of the chalice for example.

Tier 9 spells on PoE2 are far weaker than tier 3/4 tier magic on D&D. Doubt? Name one illusionist spell on Pillars 2 which can OHK enemies like Phantasmal killer can on 3e. And Phantasmal killer is a 4th tier spell which you can obtain on chapter 1 of Pathfinder Kingmaker if with a small party

Its not DnD, Illusion spells don't need to kill. Terrify (caused by Illusion effects) is the most effective form of CC already. Rymgrim's Repulsive Visage is a PL3 Illusion spell that gives you a pulsing Terrify aura which continuously scares enemies around. I would argue that its much more useful then a 1-shot, dual-save Phantasmal Killer. Also 1 spell level lower.
We can play this game if you wish.
Another level 3 spell is Ninagauth's Death Ray: on an Assassin Bloodmage it was regularly dealing 3x130 unresistable (Raw) damage crits (potentially to 2 or 3 enemies, as its a beam). Then at spell level 4 we have Shadowflame: a frost fireball that also Paralyzes the enemies it hits (trivializing mobs).
Name me some DnD level 1 spells that are half as effective as Chillfog?

Clearly overbalanced, underpowered and bland

Spoiler

 

[Desiderius]

Chillfog's a nice one, especially with Tehanu's enemies only ability.

I really enjoyed Using Arcane Archer to jack up the Accuracy for my Wiz spells so I could get them to crit consistently. Since AA abilities use a lot of Bond instead of level ups they go well with Wiz since you spend your action economy casting and your level ups getting the pet to be a threat.

Opening fights with a crit Web was fun.

 

[thesheeep]

I remember resting as much as I wanted to (which was a lot) and had no problems with time whatsoever.

You were destroying your kingdom -> missing all the good itemization by doing that.

To be honest, I do not fully remember what exactly I did or did not receive as items. It's been too long.
But even if I did miss out on some items - what does it matter if the end result is still me playing through the game just fine without those items?

Also, the kingdom was definitely not neglected. I assume actual neglect would have resulted in some fairly negative events (which would have made it clear I neglected something).
No, I just rested a lot (not after every encounter, but after many), was able to do all the quests, nothing timed out (as far as I'm aware), explored the locations, etc.

And no, I did not play on easy (if that would even make a difference, time limit wise)

Your confidence level doesn't match the validity of your points.

Honestly, the more you talk, the more I think I'm not being confident enough.
You make it seem so difficult, but I never had much trouble (well, once I understood the need to just stack effects in the game) beyond the occasional need to cheese around in fights with absurdly buffed enemies.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Using game mechanics the way the developers offer them is not autism. It's not even min-maxing or anything like that, it's just playing the game normally.

Casting every buff before every encounter in IE is normal? Getting out of no-rest location so that you can rest, return, and cast every buff before each encounter in IE is normal? Uh, sure. It's probably normal to a similar extent as actually believing there was ever a significant population of classic turn of the century rtwp crpg fans who thought this is some big issue and the way to improve on IE games is to ban casting bless outside of combat.

Saving and loading are not game mechanics - they are a separate game feature, just like graphical options or subtitles. Which is why a game can be designed around certain save implementations (like, ugh, checkpoints) but will always work with any other implementations as well.

In no way do they influence what is happening in the game. At least usually - I think some games do implement a saving/loading mechanic that actually does influence the game, and I could see some interesting ideas coming from that.

You understand you're missing the point by "from Earth to Alpha Centauri" distance, right? Replace this with whatever. Tapping the sidestep key to slowly peek around corners/obstacles to shoot at enemies before they trigger and complete the game without getting hit. Abusing slow mo mechanics all the time to complete a game without getting hit. Using economy loopholes to get effectively unlimited cash, often from early game, in like 3/4 crpgs that exist. Getting huge number of your skills to maximum in the first location in Wizardry or Morrowind. Do I need to go on? Games can and will be broken, often in idiotic and tedious ways, truly a discovery worth of 2021. It always was and always will be like that. Also, the important part is that when we look at the following groups of people:

1. Oh no! We absolutely cannot have this! I'm not on the spectrum btw.
2. So what, it is what it is. Fun games with rich mechanics and lots of freedom have loopholes. Every game has loopholes.
3. Breaking games and finding ways to do it is fun!

Then I'm willing to bet my left bollock groups 2 and 3 significantly (understatement) outnumber group 1.

You can fight against it, sure. It's just that it's a) a waste of time and I don't think many people actually want this b) wasting time on it introduces a significant risk (again, understatement) of making your game unnecessarily bland/shit/boring. Many such cases!

 

[Efe]

if we take what haplo says to be true, then how do we explain the blandness and tediousness of combat in pillars games?

 

[thesheeep]

Casting every buff before every encounter in IE is normal? Getting out of no-rest location so that you can rest, return, and cast every buff before each encounter in IE is normal? Uh, sure.

Every encounter? No, not necessary.
But whenever you run out of resources? Yes, totally normal.
And knowing that you can, at will, recover your resources means that you'll spend them more freely. Why wouldn't you?
When you do run out of resources differs from person to person, of course, but the point is that rests are effectively unlimited in video games unless specifically restricted by the developers.
And due to that, resources themselves can be considered unlimited for any scale larger than one battle.

The only practical difference between a system with many per-encounter abilities and a system with many per-rest abilities is how often you need to push that sleep button.
In other words, they are basically identical.

Which is also why the argument that ciphers are so much stronger because of the resting is complete nonsense.
Yes, ciphers are stronger than other classes, but it is NOT because of the resting. They are stronger because their resources are infinite within a single encounter (and, honestly, the abilities themselves are just a bit better).

Again, this is definitely in contrast to PnP where the DM won't just let you rest all the time.
And, yes, you can force yourself to do that, too, but then that is your decision and cannot be assumed as the default.

You understand you're missing the point by "from Earth to Alpha Centauri" distance, right? Replace this with whatever. Tapping the sidestep key to slowly peek around corners/obstacles to shoot at enemies before they trigger and complete the game without getting hit. Abusing slow mo mechanics all the time to complete a game without getting hit. Using economy loopholes to get effectively unlimited cash, often from early game, in like 3/4 crpgs that exist. Getting huge number of your skills to maximum in the first location in Wizardry or Morrowind. Do I need to go on? Games can and will be broken, often in idiotic and tedious ways, truly a discovery worth of 2021. It always was and always will be like that. Also, the important part is that when we look at the following groups of people:

1. Oh no! We absolutely cannot have this! I'm not on the spectrum btw.
2. So what, it is what it is. Fun games with rich mechanics and lots of freedom have loopholes. Every game has loopholes.
3. Breaking games and finding ways to do it is fun!

Then I'm willing to bet my left bollock groups 2 and 3 significantly (understatement) outnumber group 1.

You can fight against it, sure. It's just that it's a) a waste of time and I don't think many people actually want this b) wasting time on it introduces a significant risk (again, understatement) of making your game unnecessarily bland/shit/boring. Many such cases!

I agree with most of this and honestly don't know what part of what I said you consider in conflict with this.

 

[Haplo]

if we take what haplo says to be true, then how do we explain the blandness and tediousness of combat in pillars games?

I don't think it was bad. Well, too much trash in the base game (BUT superb encounter design in WM).

But you should exploit certain mechanics to feel powerful in PoE1. Particularly Priest buffs and debuffs!

When you got a huge advantage in the Accuracy vs Deflection equation, playing a Barbarian who prone-locks whole enemy squads via Carnage using Overbeaing weapons and constantly critting was rather fun, I've thought.
Or ista-gibbing undead and constructs with St. Ydwen's Redeemer.
Or raining lightning with Stormcaller.
And many other.

 

[MrMarbles]

But calling it overbalanced and bland? That's simply spreading false rumors. Blatant lying.

You seem to be a little confused about the difference between observation and opinion. Let me help you out. "Sawyer is the Messiah reborn": That is a statement of fact. Since he is not, in fact, the messiah (just a very naughty boy), and I know he is not, I would be lying. "Sawyer failed to make the combat fun": This is a statement of opinion. It may be wrong, but since I do not believe it is wrong (in fact I believe the opposite), it cannot be a lie.

I enjoy seeing the character's power develop and grow, discovering and exploiting broken combos and the micro-management aspect

This is a blatant lie! False rumours!

See how this works?

Again, you're not exactly original. And late to the party. People were crying "overbalanced", "no fun allowed", "where's the power in my fantasy" already years ago.


When some simple research about builds and synergies would prove this a nonesense.

Ffs. No, "research" cannot prove that the combat in POE2 is fun BECAUSE THE CLAIM THAT IT IS NOT FUN IS AN OPINION.

 

[Haplo]

Ffs. No, "research" cannot prove that the combat in POE2 is fun BECAUSE THE CLAIM THAT IT IS NOT FUN IS AN OPINION.

FFS, maybe you should work on your reading comprehension?

How about some constructive input man instead of just repeating that others are wrong, that POE is hot sauce and mindlessly labeling divergent opinions retarded?

I'm simply very tired of the repeated ad nausea blatant, nonsense lies and misinformation concerning Deadfire. About its "overbalancing", about how stats don't matter, about how people are not allowed to have fun with it or how there no broken builds or items in the game.

Its okay for people to have legitimate complaints with the game: how the main quest sucks, how the players have no agency in the story, how small most side/exploration locations are, how bare bones and repeatable and/or how unnecessary/futile the ship combat is.
Heck, even the combat might be divisive. Indeed, there are many enemies that are too bullet-spongy and the number of active abilities and effects makes it quite difficult to read and follow - outside of playing in slow mode and constant pausing. Despite this, it feels satisfying and fun for me. But I enjoy seeing the character's power develop and grow, discovering and exploiting broken combos and the micro-management aspect - still understand that some people may think differently.

But calling it overbalanced and bland? That's simply spreading false rumors. Blatant lying.

Basic research can prove that adjectives such as "overbalanced" are patently false.

 

[Efe]

They are not false

 

[Immortal]

A surprising amount of Codexers appeared to have played IE games / NWNs / etc on half-autopilot, delegating half the party to AI.
I can only assume that those people (1) also thought Dungeon Siege was alright, and (2) have no problem with a party of 4 or 5, since they don't even use it all.

> IE games

Why is this surprising..?
Most RTwP games never required that amount of micro management and most 2E and 3E classes had shit all to do other then to hit something x amount of times per round.

If anything the IE games trained people to play like this..
Half your party face tanks or pelts things with arrows while you dick around with your mages..

It's not like these games require anything more from you, most people are playing solo gish characters on Insane with 20 difficulty mods.. Extra party members just slow down my xp gain and boots of speed dashing.

In order to minimize rests you need to refrain yourself from actually using quite a few available classes. If you want to play a mage as a mage, not auto-attacking-with-wand-retard-pseudoarcher-from-eraly-shitty-hns-games then you need to rest quite a lot, especially on the early levels. And when you make a decision like that, another shitty decisions follow, like complete lack of mage duels which were super fun in BG2 and typically used up a lot of spells and so on and so forth. And then you get PoE. And codex makes 7 reviews. And things get super weird.

So yeah, everyone claims they don't rest "too much." But reading how people play these games suggests the opposite, and this is also the site where someone was caught lying about playing PoE in PotD.

As someone who rest spammed constantly - I appreciated the camping supply limitation.
I almost never self-impose restrictions on myself.. It just feels like I am playing in-optimally.. I need the game to stop me as part of it's difficulty curve.

 

[Desiderius]

Just because you’ve found the abilities that weren’t (and I’ve found the synergies) doesn’t mean that most abilities weren’t (overbalensed).

But the problem is the way* that they were overbalanced, and finding the I win buttons just makes it worse.

The problem with tic tac toe isn’t that it’s overbalanced, it’s that it’s trivial. Finding one weird trick that lets you take three moves in a row doesn’t change that.

* - too few angles of attack/dimensions you can affect/ways you can affect them

 

[Desiderius]

A surprising amount of Codexers appeared to have played IE games / NWNs / etc on half-autopilot, delegating half the party to AI.
I can only assume that those people (1) also thought Dungeon Siege was alright, and (2) have no problem with a party of 4 or 5, since they don't even use it all.

> IE games

Why is this surprising..?
Most RTwP games never required that amount of micro management and most 2E and 3E classes had shit all to do other then to hit something x amount of times per round.

If anything the IE games trained people to play like this..
Half your party face tanks or pelts things with arrows while you dick around with your mages..

You’re describing yourself sucking, not the gameplay as designed.

 

[Immortal]

A surprising amount of Codexers appeared to have played IE games / NWNs / etc on half-autopilot, delegating half the party to AI.
I can only assume that those people (1) also thought Dungeon Siege was alright, and (2) have no problem with a party of 4 or 5, since they don't even use it all.

> IE games

Why is this surprising..?
Most RTwP games never required that amount of micro management and most 2E and 3E classes had shit all to do other then to hit something x amount of times per round.

If anything the IE games trained people to play like this..
Half your party face tanks or pelts things with arrows while you dick around with your mages..

You’re describing yourself sucking, not the gameplay as designed.

Me: "The game requires no micromanaging effort from you to beat it on hardest difficulty - so why bother"
You: "You just suck at the game"


Is English not your first language or are you just retarded?

 

[Desiderius]

A surprising amount of Codexers appeared to have played IE games / NWNs / etc on half-autopilot, delegating half the party to AI.
I can only assume that those people (1) also thought Dungeon Siege was alright, and (2) have no problem with a party of 4 or 5, since they don't even use it all.

> IE games

Why is this surprising..?
Most RTwP games never required that amount of micro management and most 2E and 3E classes had shit all to do other then to hit something x amount of times per round.

If anything the IE games trained people to play like this..
Half your party face tanks or pelts things with arrows while you dick around with your mages..

You’re describing yourself sucking, not the gameplay as designed.

Me: "The game requires no micromanaging effort from you to beat it on hardest difficulty - so why bother"
You: "You just suck at the game"


Is English not your first language or are you just retarded?

You suck at the game as a game.

Beating it is beside the point. I can beat my three year old at tennis using a violin. That’s still a shitty way to play both as in suboptimal and as in abusing the craftsman who made the violin.

 

[Immortal]

Is English not your first language or are you just retarded?

You suck at the game as a game.
Beating it is beside the point.

Retarded it is then.