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KickStarter Knights of the Chalice 2 Thread - Augury of Chaos

Jermu

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Your claim: Upgraded Cone can reach more squares => damage a lot more enemies/casters => much easier to win => it's great.
My claim: It reaches only some additional secondary targets in few battle => only slightly easier => you can deal with the enemy anyway => not good.
As you can see it all hinges on very subjective notion "some vs a lot" and "slightly vs much". We'd have to agree to an objective measure. Are 2, 3, 5 or 7 additional enemies a lot? What is easier? Less turns? Less HP lost?. And all that on not taking into account additional variables like opportunity cost or number of battles in game where is is useful at all (=very few) - which are not part of your argument, i get it. But I don't ignore them completely.

BTW. What level were you when fighting those battles? Because my cone sure as hell wasn't strong enough to kill any goblin Shaman in one cast.

o4oci4G.png


lvl 7, playing with all archmage rules. Cone also hitting 1 other goblin which did not fit into screen
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Bard doesn’t need INT. You eventually get enough activations from levels.

Drop INT and play Human (limited to 18 CHR) and you can be pretty good at all three action economies, though I mostly shoot and use weapon slot for Heal Scimitar. Full BAB and Human/Bonus Feats facilitate Rapid Shot ranged well.

Can cast effectively once you get +CHR instrument but Silence and Healing always good.

I don’t like Reach because Bard is one of few classes that can use Heavy Shield.

Alternatively can go Mantis with two-weapon and end up with infinite attacks. Musketeer relic Rapier perfect for this. I’d do this if you aren’t running Rogue.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Bard doesn’t need INT. You eventually get enough activations from levels.

Bard is a subpar fighter or archer, last time I played one, without any INT, I ran out of songs pretty often, then again, I played without additional campfires.

Categorical statements. I cite specifics.

Be your own judge.

A song and a spell or two on hard fights, a song on the rest. Before you hit level 8 the songs don't do much so save activations for key spells. By then you'll have 8 activations or more without the INT. INT doesn't do enough.

Fighting/shooting effectively is about items as long as you've got the full BAB and Bonus Feats to support it. Bard does. Classes that specialize in fighting obv will be better but are often doing CMs or specialized tasks. Need competent fighters/shooters for back-up.
 

anvi

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My Bard did pretty good damage by the later levels. But the ability to daze an entire room and use confusion and stuff was what I liked the most.
 

Jermu

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New update https://store.steampowered.com/news...=103582791471607359&emgid=3213892775477955049

Hello everyone! Here's a big update for KotC 2. It's mainly a bug-fixing update, but there are new features too.

The new features include a tooltip informing you about the
number of possible targets in range
whenever you mouse over a spell icon, and a new shortcut key (Left Shift) to
buy five items
from any NPC in one go.

In the Module Editor, you can now create
party-defeated scripts
for any encounter where the story continues after the player is defeated in combat. This can be used when the party is split (see the duel with Jorad for instance) or for any scenario where the party members are captured rather than killed at the end of the fight.

Here is the complete list of changes in version
1.36
:

  • When selecting spells during level-up, the tooltip and colour information indicating whether you have a scroll of a given spell will now take into account any
    scrolls placed inside containers
    .
  • The level-up
    Hit Point roll
    will now be saved when you close a character's level-up window and then reopen it.
  • When opening a treasure chest on the map, or some other container on the map, if the container is empty, the displayed label will include '
    (Empty)
    '. For example: << Crate (Empty) >>.
  • When mousing over spells in the Character Sheet or in the spell quickbar, for most spells the tooltip will now let you know
    how many targets are within range of your spell
    .
  • In the Inventory Screen, picking up an item from the floor or from some container on the map will no longer close your inventory's bag slots. Also, buying an item from someone will no longer close your bag slots.
  • When trading with someone, you can now
    buy five items in one go
    using the Left Shift key. Either push Left Click and click on the item you want to buy, or mouse over the item you want to buy and push Left Shift + B. Also added a mention of this shortcut key in the help system.
  • Losing the match against Jorad the Barbarian
    will not result in losing the game, if you have at least one surviving party member. Also, in the Module Editor you can now set a script that will control what happens after the party loses a battle.
  • During combat, when mousing over a creature, the
    initiative list
    will automatically scroll to that creature so you can more easily see the creature's position in the initiative list.
  • The game will now hide the square grid when displaying spell animations.
  • Fixed a source of crashes when the party is split into two groups, if you have inactive recruited companions. Also, when the party is split or exploring special areas (sweltering, freezing or underwater areas), you won't be able to activate or deactivate characters in the Formation Screen.
  • Fixed a source of crashes in combat.
  • Fixed a couple of
    Steam/GOG achievements
    that would not trigger (Shadow Expert and Shadow Master).
  • Improved the display of the expected effect of
    Break Enchantment
    and
    Greater Break Enchantment
    on characters and monsters.
  • Fixed a bug when casting a single-target damage spell on a
    grappling target
    .
  • Fixed the display of
    energy vulnerabilities
    in the Inventory Screen.
  • Fixed a bug with the 50% energy vulnerability of Wizards who have completed the Wizard transformation.
  • Fixed a bug with the 50% electricity resistance of Wizards with the Meril transformation.
  • Fixed a bug with the AI when it's using the
    Bull Rush (Slide)
    action.
  • Fixed a bug with the duration of the
    Nauseated
    conditions obtained from Stinking Cloud.
  • Fixed a bug with characters getting the Entangled condition even though they have been Swallowed Whole.
  • Fixed an AI issue with
    Grapple / Swallow Whole
    not being used as often as it should be according to AI settings and feats.
  • Fixed a problem with the AI using potions of Greater Restoration and similar spells.
  • Fixed an instance where the game would suggest a
    five-foot step + attack
    but the five-foot step would lead to a square from which the character couldn't attack the enemy.
  • The
    spell quickbar
    will now remove spells you no longer have because you've used the Respec option to change your spell selection.
  • Fixed a problem with player characters and monsters being able to take an action immediately after receiving the
    Quicksand
    condition.
  • Fixed a problem with the damage dealt by the
    Vorpal
    weapon enchantment.
  • Fixed a problem with the display of the
    expected critical-hit damage
    on monsters with some Damage Reduction.
  • Fixed a problem with the display of psionic powers in the spell quickbar, and other issues with the quickbar.
  • Fixed several issues with the display of the ranged-attack arrow path.
  • Fixed a problem with the
    display of threat areas
    when the party leader has received the Dominated or Controlled condition.
  • Fixed a display problem during combat when right clicking on a spell or SLA in the 'Activate Special' menu to open the help, and then closing the help window.
  • Fixed a bug with Death Throes and other spells when they inflict more than 30 damage dice.
  • When you resolve the Phantom Staircase puzzle, the
    Mysterious Scroll
    will now be removed from your inventory.
  • Fixed Asharzaelle's missing
    Fear immunity
    as a Paladin with an Aura of Courage.
  • Fixed problems with the
    Vanishing Sword quest
    when the party returns to the inn.
  • Fixed a problem when duplicating the
    Tome of the Dead
    .
  • Fixed a problem with the treasure chest of the Lizardmen near the Coven of the Four Crones.
  • Fixed a dialogue when leaving the Soul Sucker Death Snare.
  • Fixed a problem in the help entry for the Death Knight
    Life Drain
    power.
  • Corrected the alignment of Dargil the Dwarf in Chapter 4.
  • Fixed a broken link in the description of Psionic Fog.
  • Improved the description of the spell
    Mass True Strike
    .
  • Fixed an issue in the help entry for the feat
    Combat Reflexes
    .
  • Fixed an issue with the spell
    Mass Blur
    .
  • Improved the descriptions of the feats White Wizard Improved Widen, Red Wizard Improved Empower, Red Wizard Improved Maximise, Green Wizard Improved Widen and Blue Wizard Improved Widen to clarify that you still need to have the corresponding metamagic feat in order to receive the benefit.
  • Fixed a bug in the macOS version in the game options for skipping the animation of Scorching Ray and Produce Flame.

Thank You, Valiant Knights And Wise Wizards of the Realm! Enjoy! :)
 

Oligryan

Novice
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May 11, 2022
Messages
13
I'm all for thinking man bards. Bards are too MAD and their SLAs and feats are too good to sacrifice just to have a somewhat better but still subpar martial or (even worse) archer.

Just give them weapon finesse and some +dam rings IMO. Maybe TWF if you really, really need a real frontliner. I'd happily dump STR if it could somehow get me more song uses or higher DCs.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
My Bard is a thinking man Bard. The reason I have him along is for dialogues and songs and spells.

Hurr-durr subpar makes no sense since you’re comparing it to classes that have none of those things if you’re doing that. Even if you jack INT way up you’re never getting enough activations to fill even half your action economy.

For the other half you’ve got full BAB, Bonus Feats, and proficiencies. If you suck that bad at it that’s on you not the class. Trading three activations for +3 initiative, AC, and AB on each attack (you’ll be making a lot more than three of those) is a good deal.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
BTW, if you’re having trouble with ranged make sure you have Far Shot Feat or Distance enchant on Bow. Makes a big difference.
 

Jvegi

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Nov 16, 2012
Messages
5,064
Aren't dc for songs based purely on charisma? Any crucial feats for bards that require high intelligence? Perhaps 13 is too much? I wish I had the rulset printed.

As for the shield, it is tempting but the long range aoo's felt very useful in the tutorial, so I think I'll go with that. Perhaps I'll change my mind after creating more party members.
 

Oligryan

Novice
Joined
May 11, 2022
Messages
13
Trading three activations for +3 initiative, AC, and AB on each attack (you’ll be making a lot more than three of those) is a good deal.

And like I said, I disagree. Bard spells swing encounters while no matter how you build your Bard, it will never come within even a country mile of what a Gladiator, Samurai, et cetera can output. I'd rather have more activations available than those stats. The same way I'm not making 20 STR Bishops and Druids.
I don't have trouble with ranged. I have issue with the amount of feats it involves.

If you suck that bad at it that’s on you not the class.
Unless Pierre throws in a Grand Archmage or an Arch-iermage difficulty to test it against, I'd say my method of building Bards is viable and fine.
Or it could be that I'm just a good enough player to compensate. Either is fine with me, really.
 

Darth Canoli

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Jun 8, 2018
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Perched on a tree
Categorical statements. I cite specifics.

Be your own judge.

A song and a spell or two on hard fights, a song on the rest. Before you hit level 8 the songs don't do much so save activations for key spells. By then you'll have 8 activations or more without the INT. INT doesn't do enough.

Fighting/shooting effectively is about items as long as you've got the full BAB and Bonus Feats to support it. Bard does. Classes that specialize in fighting obv will be better but are often doing CMs or specialized tasks. Need competent fighters/shooters for back-up.

I thought it was obvious.
In fact, seems like it's obvious for everyone but you.
Well Oligryan spelled it.

The only reason a more martial build would be alright for a bard would be if you only go with one fighter and you plan to use the bard as your second one.
I'm not saying it's a very good plan but if the other 4 (and eventually companions) are well built pure casters, it's good enough.
 

Jvegi

Arcane
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Nov 16, 2012
Messages
5,064
Fire Salamander for a cleric seems like a waste with their low ApR. I think I'll do it though. The domains all looks so good. I took reach and improved turning.

At that pace, I'll finish the game just before KotC3 comes out.
 

Jermu

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Aug 13, 2017
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Tried spider queen 3 times here are the results:
1. Did not spawn
2. Spawned at turn 10+ after final enemy died
3. Spawned turn 3 in identical scenario with second one (1 enemy sleeping)

Coffin vampire had some buggy features also 1 out 3 times adds did not spawn.

So far my archmage run has been going quite well coffin vampire took 3 tries (quicksand has 50% vs that guy) and death snare final fight 2 (cheesed summon with sleep). Other than those and spider queen had to restart like 4-5 times. Rogue and Death Knight are surprisingly good and quite many encounters are practically over after 1 bard song. If Im going to do third run its going to be without Psionicist and maybe wizard. Psionicist can solo many encounters with 1 or 2 cones even late sewer.

Im not sure if I want to do castle again 1 time was enough of that place
 
Last edited:

Darth Canoli

Arcane
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Jun 8, 2018
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Location
Perched on a tree
Tried spider queen 3 times here are the results:
1. Did not spawn
2. Spawned at turn 10+ after final enemy died
3. Spawned turn 3 in identical scenario with second one (1 enemy sleeping)

Coffin vampire had some buggy features also 1 out 3 times adds did not spawn.

So far my archmage run has been going quite well coffin vampire took 3 tries (quicksand has 50% vs that guy) and death snare final fight 2 (cheesed summon with sleep). Other than those and spider queen had to restart like 4-5 times. Rogue and Death Knight are surprisingly good and quite many encounters are practically over after 1 bard song. If Im going to do third run its going to be without Psionicist and maybe wizard. Psionicist can solo many encounters with 1 or 2 cones even late sewer.

Im not sure if I want to do castle again 1 time was enough of that place

I never had any problem with the Spider Queen.

Are you using the 3D sprites?
Do you report bugs? I mean in steam/gog?
 

udm

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Aug 14, 2008
Messages
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Make the Codex Great Again!
Sorry to interrupt the conversation. I've been watching some of the newer gameplay videos. It seems like the game uses sprites now, a la IE games. Did the tokens get replaced?
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Sorry to interrupt the conversation. I've been watching some of the newer gameplay videos. It seems like the game uses sprites now, a la IE games. Did the tokens get replaced?
Sprites is an option, the tokens are not replaced.
 

Jermu

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Aug 13, 2017
Messages
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Tried spider queen 3 times here are the results:
1. Did not spawn
2. Spawned at turn 10+ after final enemy died
3. Spawned turn 3 in identical scenario with second one (1 enemy sleeping)

Coffin vampire had some buggy features also 1 out 3 times adds did not spawn.

So far my archmage run has been going quite well coffin vampire took 3 tries (quicksand has 50% vs that guy) and death snare final fight 2 (cheesed summon with sleep). Other than those and spider queen had to restart like 4-5 times. Rogue and Death Knight are surprisingly good and quite many encounters are practically over after 1 bard song. If Im going to do third run its going to be without Psionicist and maybe wizard. Psionicist can solo many encounters with 1 or 2 cones even late sewer.

Im not sure if I want to do castle again 1 time was enough of that place

I never had any problem with the Spider Queen.


Are you using the 3D sprites?
Do you report bugs? I mean in steam/gog?

Tokens always
No, I cant be arsed unless it is something gamebreaking

Regarding spider queen with buffs my half giant DK had 89% grappling and next round 98% pin chance which is quite reliable. She got 1 turn to cast but wasted it for moving + casting 2x dispel.

It is quite surprising how good quicksand is even in late game. In spider queen fight vs that large summon guy quicksand had 80% chance to hit or something.

Also broke the gate siege without additional support options had to waste quite many scrolls for that. Going to try final fight also without support options later tonight
 

Pink Eye

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Space Refrigerator
I'm very into cock and ball torture
By the way. I think this achievement is bugged:
fg7GIBQ.png

I spent all of last night trying to get this thing. I kill ghost and undead skeletons then I sanctify the areas. I also tell werewolves to go away. All without reloading once and still nothing. My brain is mashed potatoes.
 

Jermu

Arbiter
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This keeps happening every time im at the castle:

n3gn1EL.png


Middle of combat enemies respawn around the map sometimes with 1hp and sometimes negative hp as shown in picture.
 

Serus

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Small but great planet of Potatohole
By the way. I think this achievement is bugged:
fg7GIBQ.png

I spent all of last night trying to get this thing. I kill ghost and undead skeletons then I sanctify the areas. I also tell werewolves to go away. All without reloading once and still nothing. My brain is mashed potatoes.
Try to kill werewolves instead. Why would you "talk with evil lycanthropes" anyway. Fun little fight, one where Grease is at its strongest.
 

Serus

Arcane
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Small but great planet of Potatohole
I have to ask you all a favour guys.
I am done for the time being with KotC2 - i hope to return soon for a second run, with different builds and possibly play on Archmage or Ironman. But for now i'm done.
I'm thinking what to play next, mosty something tactical, CRPG or CRPG-ish. The option I came with:
1) Battle Brothers Legends (Darh, is it known when they will include the big perk mod (PTR?) into Legends?)
2) King's Arthur Knight's Tale
3) That Warhammer 40k Demon-something-something game
4) Solasta
5) Gloomhaven
6) Return to Kingmaker or try (more) WotR. Damn, I love the idea of mounted combat but hate the writing and a few other things so much.
7) Finish Underrail
8) Something else

Which one would you recommend?
 

Jasede

Arcane
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Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
24,793
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
Legends is bleh, but has a lot of content.
WotR I tried twice and it's vomit-inducing. The encounter design is trash. And that's when you ignore the writing.
I'd vote for Underrail. Good experience all around.
 

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