Lands of Lore - the Throne of Chaos

[Absalom]

Use D-Fend Reloaded. It makes setting up configs, mounting and everything so god damn easy instead of having to type out anything. Plus it's a pretty decent frontend. I use it along with Hyperspin and ScummVM for all my old gaming bliss.

Bro, I grew up on DOS. Typing this shit out pleases me

 

[DraQ]

Ok, I asked this question before, but with no definitive answer.
Now I intend to re-play the game and finish it properly this time, but I don't really want to to become too occupied by insultingly simplistic and yet fucking opaque skill system, so:
For a final party of Paulson, Baccatta and teh furfag (Kieran - sorry, can't play as Cardassian after failed skin transplant), what's the best way to channel development of individual members?
What should be teh furfag's primary task and what tasks should I cede on Paulson and Baccatta?

Another question - what do skill levels actually DO?

So far I know:
-all skills increase HP on level up, but by different value
-magic skill increases MP
-rogue skill determines lockpicking skill

What else?

 

[Aeschylus]

Magic is quite a bit more useful than most other skills. It greatly expands your mana pool with each level, basically, which gives you access to higher levels of the spells, which do a lot more damage, or become AOE versions. As far as I can tell increasing mana is all it does.
Rogue skill is pretty useless, effects damage/hit rate with thrown weapons. There's one or two enemies in the game that can only be killed by thrown weapons, and it's useful against the couple of enemies who make you drop your weapons, so there's that. I don't know that it really has any effect on lockpicking. I don't recall any that I couldn't open with only 1/2 skill.
Fighter is pretty straightforward -- more HP, better hit chance (I think. It's pretty opaque, but it seems to be the case).

Basically, let Paulson be a fighter, Baccatta mostly magic but a little fighter doesn't hurt, and main guy as much magic as you can. In the beginning you'll have to use fighter with your main so you'll level up a bit in that anyway.

Honestly, the game is pretty easy aside from one or two points where it's possible to screw yourself. It's pretty much impossible to get yourself into a bad state with your character development.

 

[iZerw]

Magic is quite a bit more useful than most other skills. It greatly expands your mana pool with each level, basically, which gives you access to higher levels of the spells, which do a lot more damage, or become AOE versions. As far as I can tell increasing mana is all it does.
Rogue skill is pretty useless.

If i remember correctly, you can't finish the game without high lock-picking. There is one locked chest with an item which crucial to the main quest.

 

[DraQ]

Ok, I can't vouch for its correctness, but apparently:

Here are the data on delays I promised long ago.
There are three sorts of delays: the delay after shots or failed blows (x), the delay after successful blows (y), and the delay after spellcasting (z).
The first delay depends on rogue level and also on character. For all characters except Kieran x=10 (about 2.5 or 3 seconds) at levels 1-3, x=9 at levels 4-7, and x=7 at levels 8-10. For Kieran x=7 at levels 1-7 and x=6 at levels 8-10. Note that rogue enhancers like jade necklace do not matter.
The second delay is equal to 4, regardless the rogue level your character has.
Zephyr ring divides all these delays by 2 (with taking an integer part, so Kieran would always have x=3 and y=2, others have x=5 or x=4 at lower rogue levels and x=3 since 8th).
The third delay always equals to 8, though maybe some items modify it.

Also apparently burlyfag PC (Michael or somesuch) does the most damage with magic too due to some hidden variable influencing *all* damage dealt.

 

[groke]

Also apparently burlyfag PC (Michael or somesuch) does the most damage with magic too due to some hidden variable influencing *all* damage dealt.

It's a feature!

Also, for all his talk, the cat-dude isn't actually any better at dodging.

 

[DraQ]

Also apparently burlyfag PC (Michael or somesuch) does the most damage with magic too due to some hidden variable influencing *all* damage dealt.

It's a feature!

Also, for all his talk, the cat-dude isn't actually any better at dodging.

I'm playing Kieran because cat dude seems cool, I'm partial to furfags, like racially enriched parties and IMO Kieran meshes the best with the entire story arc (roguish quick-thinker archetype really fits the kind of narrative where you have the protagonist outclassed by powerful enemy) and sure as fuck I'm not playing the game for mechanics, but for it's fable-ish atmosphere so narrative conservation is important here.

Going with the tank douche would be pretty stupid narrative-wise, while out-casting the master caster wouldn't work nearly as well either. Conrad the all around dewd would work well but cat dude works even better.

 

[Murk]

Not better at dodging but he acts almost twice as often as any other char; that's an ability separate from any starts.

 

[DraQ]

Ok, am I correct that the mace "Puma" is more effective in Kieran's hands? Because it definitely seems so.

Can anyone confirm, and does anyone have info regarding special abilities of named weapons?

 

[Sceptic]

Official cluebook is here: http://www.pixsoriginadventures.co.uk/downloads/
Doesn't mention anything special about Puma though, so no idea.

 

[CorpseZeb]

Oh please. So what if there are doors that are not meant to be opened, or items never used?

Name one other game of the same ilk as Lands of Lore that had doors that were never meant to be opened.

(...)

Urm... Arx Fatalis? Case of the door that supposedly leads to the outside.

Ps. Well, technically, you can open them, but they "were never meant to be opened"...

 

[DraQ]

Official cluebook is here: http://www.pixsoriginadventures.co.uk/downloads/
Doesn't mention anything special about Puma though, so no idea.

The frustrating part is that nothing really mentions anything special about most of the stuff in game.

I enjoy lack of transparency if presentation is advanced enough to convey all the non-explicit stuff and the mechanics are simulationist enough to get by without throwing all the variables in player's face, but it's not the case with LoL.

You can learn what is effective against what in terms of magic and damage types, but understanding special abilities and stuff like characters and their growth - fat chance.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Name one other game of the same ilk as Lands of Lore that had doors that were never meant to be opened.

Urm... Arx Fatalis? Case of the door that supposedly leads to the outside.

Ps. Well, technically, you can open them, but they "were never meant to be opened"...

By that logic, the front door to the Stygian Abyss in Ultima Underworld should also be named, though it is also apparent there that it was never meant to be opened.

Also a minor nitpick, but I asked the troll to name another game "of the same ilk", and by that I meant a grid-based dungeon blobber, which neither Arx nor UW1 qualify to be.

 

[CorpseZeb]

Fair points, sir. I mentioned Arx Fatalis because I clearly remember a waste of time I had been spending about a) searching a key to the outside door b) find a way to survive after opening them. But, those door was totally irrelevant to anything, of course.

 

[QuestionMan]

Briefly resurrecting the old thread to ask a question:

How much sense would the following make - a port of Lands of Lore to another game engine?

I considered it for a while, porting it to the obligatory Unity engine. Would be a lot of work though. Everything has to be programmed from scratch, based on pure investigation of the game. Also the 2D engine (or whatever that is) would have to be replaced by 3D dungeon bricks. That is all in the realm of possible, but since I'm on the programming side all the artworks have to be taken from the original game and reintegrated in the port: importers, converters, pathfinding, sophisticated texture-manager which creates animations out of a series of pictures (that's how all these animations are made of)...

This is where the problems arise. All the data (textures, audio) is packed very ugly in Lands of Lore, and a port of the game does not allow this data to be integrated into the project (especially if it's a collaborative project). Furthermore the process to extract the assets would be awful for every individual wanting to try out the game for himself... up to the point of giving up, before they have even finished the cumbersome extraction and conversion work. In fact - to avoid that, one would have to write a custom "one-click" extractor for the users to get that going automatically.

Strange thoughts befell my mind, whether I should actually "BUY" the Lands of Lore IP to avoid that - and then extract it only once, and after that directly integrate it into the project. How much could the IP cost?"... yeah, I really like to know. Kinda pathetic though, even though EA won't ever touch it again.

On the other hand a port would make it open for everyone, allow to fix some errors or changes (like e.g. keep Lora instead of Paulson, use Dawn etc.), or even enhance the game unto the point of integrating a turn-based system. (there are already hacks for playing Dawn though...). Not sure if the overall effort would be worth.

 

[Eirikur]

LoL2 is one of the favorite games of my childhood. I especially enjoyed playing an evil character in it, because of how 'mischievously evil' you could be. Come to think of it, the main character reminded me a bit of Edmund Blackadder from from the 2nd-4th seasons; snide deadpan humor, self-centered, with contempt for humanity. I also seem to recall some things which would probably be called misogynistic and racist by todays 'standards', so that's a plus. LoL3 was utter shit, though.

 

[Wulfric Pinewood]

God how i love Codex for that, above all topics/threads about new shiny games like Witcher 3 or DA:I i meet threads like this, with people who love and actually plays still, old, classic titles in that genre and have
similar golden memories about them! Long live Codex! Long Live Lands of Lore and other games of my youth!
I always read every single word in threads like this and often search for them many pages inside of dark Codex halls.

 

[QuestionMan]

Hmm ok... doesn't look like there's a lot of interest in that. I guess LOL had its time... and it's over now. Unfortunately the guy from the Grimrock forums didn't continue his project either. Maybe there would be more enthusiasm, if the dungeon would be more natural, such as the outdoors in Grimrock 2 (especially the woods would be perfect for that). But that would require a completely different approach, and most of all custom artwork.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Lack of interest for porting LoL to the Unity engine is hardly surprising. Such projects are almost always completely pointless and that's no different, LoL is a great looking game, let it stay that way.

 

[DraQ]

Porting LoL would make little sense.
Now, re-making LoL with mechanical improvements and more transparency would be great, but it would need to preserve style, atmosphere and overall asset quality which is going to be hard.

Oh, and BTW:

Oh please. So what if there are doors that are not meant to be opened, or items never used?

Name one other game of the same ilk as Lands of Lore that had doors that were never meant to be opened.

(...)

Urm... Arx Fatalis? Case of the door that supposedly leads to the outside.

Ps. Well, technically, you can open them, but they "were never meant to be opened"...

I find it disturbingly andhairesque that seemingly population of Codex can't make the distinction between non-functional doors and passages that exist for verisimilitude's sake (like those leading outside of play area) and non-functional doors that have no reason to be non-functional (like pretty much any door inside play area in a game where such doors are typically functional and there are no such things as purely window dressing buildings).

 

[QuestionMan]

Now, re-making LoL with mechanical improvements and more transparency would be great, but it would need to preserve style, atmosphere and overall asset quality which is going to be hard.

That. Yes.

Of course the port would only be the first step. Maybe "port" is the wrong word, rather "recreation" project. All original artwork would be re-used, so the first thing we'd get would be a similar game with the same atmosphere. With the sole exception, that it actually takes place in a 3d dungeon. And that the underlying gameplay mechanics, skill logic, trigger logic etc. would adapted to that, as well as completely new written from scratch, therefore 100% transparent.

The 2nd step could be everything regarding enhancements. Once the port and gameplay rewrite is done, it would be open for everyone to participate. So everyone could jump in and decide to enhance things in smaller steps, e.g. someone wants to enhance magic effects with particle emitters, another one decides to replace wall textures with hi-res textures etc.

Maybe wishful thinking... The cult status of the game might be not as large to make that worthwhile. Also it's undeniable that finishing the first step is a long term project by itself. And until that step #1 is finished, people wouldn't get too interested in this project. They would maybe if that step was already done.

(On a sidenote... why exactly LoL? It was one of the dungeon crawlers where you not only had great visuals for that time, but also great voice acting and sound effects, instead of beepy, noisy midi sounds. It aged very well, even compared to nowadays standards).

 

[Gozma]

I'd like to see someone using the wall sprites in LoL as textures for actual 3-D somehow just to see how fucking weird that is

 

[QuestionMan]

I'd like to see someone using the wall sprites in LoL as textures for actual 3-D somehow just to see how fucking weird that is

The picture below is from a guy using the original wall textures 1:1. They ain't looking bad and could be placeholders until someone decides to create hi-res textures.

http://www.booleansoup.com/downloads/undeniably_ok_downloads/screenshots/43698bbc29396.jpg

Of course a complete remake of the textures and dungeon bricks would serve this game better, like a guy from the Grimrock forums tried. But it's overkill to create more sophisticated dungeon bricks in the beginning, with detailed cloths and 3D pillars, as shown below. Once you start using detailed custom models you must also create custom textures. And that approach - trying to kill all birds with one stone - is at very high risk to not succeed.

http://www.zorglubb.net/grimrock/images/lol1_concept_1.jpg

 

[Sceptic]

Hmm ok... doesn't look like there's a lot of interest in that. I guess LOL had its time... and it's over now.

LOL1 plays perfectly fine with DOSBox, with nary a glitch or any sort of problem. As DraQ said the only reason to have a port would be for added mechanical transparency, and potentially to allow a mod that would restore what was cut from the game, but the former will be hard to do while preserving the atmosphere and charm (which are the game's main strengths - its mechanics and challenge certainly weren't) and the second would require knowing what was intended from the final areas before they were cut, and AFAIK no such infromation ever surfaced.

TBH I'm much more interested in a LOL2 port. The sequel doesn't run well in modern Windows, compatibility modes can fix some problems but introduce others, and having a smooth experience with that game would be great.

 

[QuestionMan]

Actually some years ago I thought about a remake of the 2nd part as well. Played that game a couple of times and thought it really should have better visuals. There were some nice cutscenes made in CG (e.g. walking to the citadel, the tower in the dracoid caves)... and by now all these renderings could be made for realtime environment.

Yeah, it had its fun moments, unfortunately they also cut off content (e.g. Sir Kenneth should follow you over the bridge to the Draracle, but he wasn't there - which was kinda annoying since even the manual showed a picture where you pushed him from the bridge). A port for this game would probably even more challenging, especially since I have read in a fan forum, that they couldn't extract usable meshes and models from the CDs. Therefore it would require to create the environments loosely based on the original - or completely new from scratch. Actually that could be more reasonable in this case.

That's the thing about the Lands of Lore series... they featured a lot of secrets, hidden or cut-off content. Maybe that was part of its charm. Oh well... kinda sad they didn't continue the series. There existed plans and drawings for the 4th part already, but it was never continued.

Guess I should go to the Ubisoft guys and ask them... hey... can you buy the Lands of Lore license from EA and create a "Lands of Lore Legacy"?

Edit: well, why can't EA do that themselves... they surely own a small developer studio somewhere, whom they could give this task. An experiment like Ubisofts MMX. Now at the renaissance of dungeon crawlers... or wait... maybe EA only wants a single medieval RPG brand.. which is Dragon Age