Lands of Lore vs. Skyrim - Which is more of an RPG and why? Discuss!!

[Clockwork Knight]

2. Stop covering games that aren't RPGs. Skyrim, ME all that shit can go. Shooter with stats is not an RPG, and the old timer staff don't seem to care about it and it opens the door for retarded posters. You can probably cut traffic by 3/4 this way.

Sounds good. We should do it as soon as we define what is an RPG.

 

[DraQ]

2. Stop covering games that aren't RPGs. Skyrim, ME all that shit can go. Shooter with stats is not an RPG, and the old timer staff don't seem to care about it and it opens the door for retarded posters. You can probably cut traffic by 3/4 this way.

Will this also mean old non-RPGs will be given the same treatment?

Because Lands of Lore wasn't the tenth of an RPG Skyrim is, for example, regardless of the latter being FPS with stats, declinepopamole or whatever.

Or will the Dex change its name to DoubleStandardCodex?

Hey it's fitting, especially in the light of recent developments regarding patron status.

 

[Fowyr]

Because Lands of Lore wasn't the tenth of an RPG Skyrim is, for example, regardless of the latter being FPS with stats, declinepopamole or whatever.

Can you, please, elaborate. LoL is a dungeon crawler (albeit with a semblance of story), so a true RPG in my book. RT combat is the essential shtick of all DM clones and I don't hold it against LoL.

 

[DraQ]

Because Lands of Lore wasn't the tenth of an RPG Skyrim is, for example, regardless of the latter being FPS with stats, declinepopamole or whatever.

Can you, please, elaborate. LoL is a dungeon crawler (albeit with a semblance of story), so a true RPG in my book. RT combat is the essential shtick of all DM clones and I don't hold it against LoL.

What RPG-like features does LoL posses that Skyrim doesn't?
It has much less stats and ways to progress or differentiate your character, it doesn't really have anything in the way of character interaction and almost no room for any tactics, especially tactics that would depend on build.

Yes, it has neat pixel art, good music and a lot of charm.
That does not an RPG make.

 

[Fowyr]

What RPG-like features does LoL posses that Skyrim doesn't?

Proper dungeons? With riddles and ass-raping monsters? My memory is pretty cloudy (last time I played it six years ago), but at least I remember several teleportation puzzles and no-mapping zone.

it doesn't really have anything in the way of character interaction

It's DM-clone, for crying out loud. It doesn't need to have character interaction.

I can't answer your questions about stats, because can't even remember them.

 

[DraQ]

Proper dungeons? With riddles and ass-raping monsters? My memory is pretty cloudy (last time I played it six years ago), but at least I remember several teleportation puzzles and no-mapping zone.

But riddles and puzzles are not required for game to be an RPG, nor do they automatically make game an RPG.
Same with dungeon design, which is as much of a feature in crawler as it can be in an FPS.

There have even been FPS games specifically going for RPG/crawler feel - see Strife or Hexen series.

It's DM-clone, for crying out loud. It doesn't need to have character interaction.

So? I'm trying to consider it impartially, and don't want to delve into "what can define the nature of an RPG" question, so I'm bringing up every single facet that could be brought up as required for a game to be an RPG.

And every single facet that can be used to define RPG, will be much more pronounced in Skyrim than in LoL1.

Finally, don't remember that every single TES game is technically Arena clone and Arena was an RPG.

I can't answer your questions about stats, because can't even remember them.

It had total of three statistics rising with use - mage, fighter and rogue.

Like in those jokes that TES:N+1 will only have three skills - hittin' stuff, sneakin' and teh majicks, only for real and in 1993 instead of post 2006.

Your whole party in LoL had less stats and was doing much less with them than single Skyrim character.

 

[Fowyr]

Proper dungeons? With riddles and ass-raping monsters? My memory is pretty cloudy (last time I played it six years ago), but at least I remember several teleportation puzzles and no-mapping zone.

But riddles and puzzles are not required for game to be an RPG,

Only if it has other RPG fortes. See below.

nor do they automatically make game an RPG.

Indeed.

Same with dungeon design, which is as much of a feature in crawler as it can be in an FPS.
There have even been FPS games specifically going for RPG/crawler feel - see Strife or Hexen series.

Add System Shock to that list. It had awesome "dungeon".

It's DM-clone, for crying out loud. It doesn't need to have character interaction.

So? I'm trying to consider it impartially, and don't want to delve into "what can define the nature of an RPG" question, so I'm bringing up every single facet that could be brought up as required for a game to be an RPG.
And every single facet that can be used to define RPG, will be much more pronounced in Skyrim than in LoL1.

Your approach not differs from my, but you are using too few facets.

Your whole party in LoL had less stats and was doing much less with them than single Skyrim character.

Academagia had slightly less stats and much more skills than Skyrim, but it still not RPG.

RPG-ness should be judged as a complex variable. For example, you forgot about "other genre elements" (think of arcade sequences in Obitus) and elusive "decline!1!1" parameters.

In conclusion, LoL is better RPG than Skyrim. Just because more stats, NPC interaction, etc. don't balance shittyness of other aspects.

 

[DraQ]

Same with dungeon design, which is as much of a feature in crawler as it can be in an FPS.
There have even been FPS games specifically going for RPG/crawler feel - see Strife or Hexen series.

Add System Shock to that list. It had awesome "dungeon".

Gladly, especially given that it is a game with absolutely no RPG elements.

Anyway, dungeons don't have to be dungeons, and while Skyrim's actual dungeons are mostly linear mess (though not all of them, more spacious ones can have quite a bit of room for tactics), you also have hostile overland locations that are mostly interesting due to their openness and freedom of approach. LoL overland locations, OTOH are mostly mazes pretending to be forests.

Your approach not differs from my, but you are using too few facets.

So what would be those extra facets that make LoL a good RPG?

Not a good game, or even good experience - for example Oblivion is an absolutely abysmal game and experience despite being far better RPG than LoL - but a good RPG.

I can guarantee you that whatever such factor you choose, you will either end up arbitrarily rejecting a number of unquestionable RPGs, or including a number of definitely not RPGs.

Your whole party in LoL had less stats and was doing much less with them than single Skyrim character.

Academagia had slightly less stats and much more skills than Skyrim, but it still not RPG.

I consider stats to include all free parameters that can be altered as a result of chargen and character development - this means both attributes and skills.

For example Morrowind had 35 stats - 27 skills and 8 attributes. It also had maximum health, magicka and fatigue, but those weren't stats in RPG sense, because they weren't free parameters and couldn't be changed independently of attributes during generation or development. A stat in RPG sense must also require tradeoff between raising it and some other stat*.

Skyrim has 21 stats - 18 skills and three attributes also doubling as resource pools (health, magicka, stamina). Resource pools are included this time, because they can increase independently of any other stat. There is also perk system adding quite a bit of extra complexity but we don't need to consider that now.

LoL has 3 stats - including 3 skills. It's resource pools (health and mana) are not stats in RPG sense because they don't change independently during character development.
Mutiplied by 3 (max people in party) it gives us 9 stats total.

RPG-ness should be judged as a complex variable. For example, you forgot about "other genre elements" (think of arcade sequences in Obitus) and elusive "decline!1!1" parameters.

It's definitely a complex variable.

However:
I don't care about the other genre elements. Sure, if they change the narrative focus of the game, they may be decisive, for example an RTS will be an RTS even if your units have character system surpassing in depth any of the RPGs in existence, simply because it's gameplay doesn't focus on the fate of few individuals (protagonist/adventuring party), but on large scale military operations where individuals are mere pawns. But if the other genre has roughly the same focus (for example RPG and FPS both focus on fates, actions and goals of a single or small bunch of characters**), it can at best qualify the game for hybrid status.

Decline parameters are inherently relative. They can be seen in the context of the series - Skyrim mostly declines the series mechanically (a little bit, because overall its mechanics works better than oblivious mechanics did and it does introduce both perks, and ways for characters to avoid converging towards the endgame), but inclines it as a whole compared to last instalment (still way below Morrowind and Daggerfall, but a rising trend nevertheless). They can also be seen in the context of the state of the genre or gaming market as a whole, in which case Skyrim is better than par and therefore incline, while Lands of Lore was indisputable decline back then and would still be decline now - few stats, no item descriptions or stats, simplistic mechanics, lack of character death (unless scripted), linearity and so on.

Finally, Skyrim possesses one of the crucial characteristics of an RPG - making different builds play differently - ranged character will work differently than melee one, summons or stealth will also make difference in making different approaches viable or not. This is obviously amplified and improved by mods, but also present in base game.

LoL, OTOH doesn't posses this characteristic.

In conclusion, LoL is better RPG than Skyrim. Just because more stats, NPC interaction, etc. don't balance shittyness of other aspects.

Conclusions don't work like this.

You need to show how you arrived at them.

We'll call it BSBCodex. Or BSBGamer. Something like that.

International Inclined Gaming Network (IIGN).
Bonus points for luring in some typo prone ignoramuses and smacking them in the face with the Truth(TM).

BSBCodex will be what's left here.


*) Not accounting for RPG sense would also make many pure action games RPGs, for instance base HP count and ammo capacity increase in Quake 2 thanks to adrenaline and ammo packs/bandoliers, but those aren't stats in RPG sense, because they aren't intrinsically tied in some sort of tradeoff, character stats in quite a few jPGs are also not stats in RPG sense, because they are functions of level alone.

**) By narrative focus I mean the way gameplay events can be described in-universe (so no metagame nor abstraction layer, only the actual events, without reference to classes, hitpoints, levels, or damage multipliers on headshots).

Pretty much every RPG could be ported into a non-RPG action game and vice versa without changing this description.

OTOH you wouldn't be able to port games between RPG and RTS or RTS and FPS genres this way because they frankly have too different scopes.
Gameplay based narrative of Baldur's Gate RTS or Starcraft FPS would be very, very different to narratives created by their original versions.

 

[Fowyr]

game with absolutely no RPG elements.

You are wrong here, but I pretty busy with cooking, so nitpick only this little thing now:

LoL overland locations, OTOH are mostly mazes pretending to be forests.

Don't blame LoL for engine peculiarities. EoB was made with only dungeons in mind. Open areas in such games are possible (remember poppy field in Wiz7 or that marsh location in Anvil of Dawn), but usually very rare.


And very good post, BTW.

 

[ManjuShri]

Dungeon crawlers aren't RPGs, they're RPG combat simulators.

 

[Captain Shrek]

 

[DakaSha]

who gives a fuck

 

[sea]

Here we have a classic example of "old RPGs were better." Rose-tinted glasses. Lands of Lore is a fun game but it does not really compare to a game like Skyrim or hell, even Diablo III, when it comes to judging its RPG mechanics. The depth and breadth of its systems are just not there. Now, defining an RPG's quality by how complex it is might be foolish, but I think it's fair to say that, mechanically, Skyrim plays pretty much as well as or better than Lands of Lore, when only taking those RPG elements into account (and not stuff like character movement/physics/etc.).

This isn't a case of someone saying "Fallout 3 is better than Fallout as an RPG" because that's not true in the least (although one could make the argument it's a better game overall - they'd be wrong but it'd be a more valid claim). In most cases, it's plain to see how new games are significantly dumbed down compared to the original in everything from character development, to combat systems, to world design, to storytelling, to global systems interactions. Maybe it's not quite fair to compare a game like Lands of Lore to Skyrim, but judged solely on their merits as RPGs I don't even see how you can say Lands of Lore is anything but a simplistic game in a genre already known for its simplicity compared to other RPGs of the time.

 

[DraQ]

game with absolutely no RPG elements.

You are wrong here, but I pretty busy with cooking

Waiting for those RPG elements then.
Oh, SS1, not 2.

Don't blame LoL for engine peculiarities.

No, but I can blame it for layout. I can also blame it for lack of gameplay complexity - If all you can do is back'n'forth in a single tile corridor and perform actions, then those actions better offer some complex gameplay. Unfortunately LoL actions were anything but - you could click attack or spell button when it lit up and choose from single digit number of spells. Consumables helped a bit but not that much. Even constrained to corridoresque dungeons Skyrim has more gameplay to it than LoL, and it also offers greater freedom of movement and approach even in those dungeons, not to mention often complex exterior areas.

LoL was truly the nextgendeclinepopamolecinematicexperience of its time and it is evident even now.
The only difference is that we all love LoL, because it has special kind of charm, good music and tasteful pixel art.
(I also liked freezing swamp gimmick and noclipping ghosts of White Tower of FFFUUU-.)

If Skyrim was as atrocious an experience as oblivious was, we would probably not be having this discussion (still better RPG than LoL, but what's the point?), but it genuinely seems to try to right many wrongs of its predecessor and constitutes fairly cool atmospheric experience on its own, which puts it on even ground with LoL and allows it to win based on purely objective merits.

And very good post, BTW.

Thanks.

 

[Gozma]

Has Patrick Stewart playing a king -> is an RPG

QED nerds

 

[Black_Willow]

ITT of DraQ.

 

[Mother Russia]

DraQ Lands of Lore is a real crpg because of the following reasons:

-It is party based
-It is only for PCs, not consoles
-It has a real story
-It has grid based movement

That said, Skyrim and ME should be in GRPGD. This shit subforum needs to be merged back into that. Fuck anyone that says otherwise. Fuck you as well, and fuck your whore of a mom for spawning you instead of getting an abortion when that nigger raped her, for good measure.

 

[DraQ]

ITT of DraQ.

Oh, silly me.
LoL is a proper RPG because it is old.

 

[Black_Willow]

Skyrim is a proper RPG because it has DARGONS and DARGONBORN.

 

[Jasede]

You're over-thinking this, go back to drawing ambiguously erotic dragons.

 

[DraQ]

You're over-thinking this, go back to drawing ambiguously erotic dragons.

Sense motive check.

 

[Broseph]

Skyrim is a proper RPG because it has DARGONS and DARGONBORN.

 

[Machocruz]

Grid based and only on PC lolz. Civ 5 is more RPG than Divinity 2.

 

[groke]

Skyrim might be more of an RPG than LoL, but LoL is 1000x better as a game so who gives a fuck? I'd much rather play a fantastic adventure-rpg than a shitty action-slightlymorerpg.

edit: besides, dungeon-crawling is one of the fundamental rpg elements, and LoL certainly does that better than Skyrim.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

LoL doesn't hold your hand like Skyrim, thus I favor LoL.