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Larian = Decline. OwlCat = Incline.

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Meredoth, Sep 18, 2021.

  1. Meredoth Arcane

    Meredoth
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    Larian was founded in 1996 and only managed to be a huge success after decades of decline. Larian could't compete with most late 90s and earlier 00s developers. Larian's DOS2 is just less awful than modern BioWare/Bugthesda games, but still awful non the less. That said, why Larian = decline?
    1. Underestimate his playerbase
    2. Normalized full voice acting
    3. Normalized mmoish/diablo 3ish nonsensical mechanics(which ruined mmos) in CRPG's.
    4. Corrupted the definition of a "good rpg" to the modern audience.
    5. Created a anti turn based culture
    6. Game journalists praise Larian games
    Lets see point by point.
    • - 1) Underestimate his playerbase
    Larian : "spell slots aren't intuitive and 5E uses the "wizards casts as sorcerers BS" "
    OwlCat : "Pick this two spellbooks, one for your lich and one for your wizard class on the vancian magical system. Manage spell memorization, caster level, spell penetration, concentration, etc; for two classes, one leveling with XP and other with milestone leveling which has a separated system with unique feats. And here is a pet unique for your class where you can customize and level up as any character. You can also merge the spellbooks"

    Larian is picking the simplest and shallowest ruleset that ever existed in the tabletop market, and still believe that is too complicated. (interview where swen criticize spell slots https://youtu.be/yecUvbMnkhM ). Why Vincke believes that spell slots are hard to new players grasp? A lot of games uses it. From Final Fantasy 1, PS1 Suikuden to modern games like Dark Souls 2. And note that i an mentioning console RPG's. Not "hardcore crpg". If even the console audience can understand spell slots, why Vincke believes that it is so complicated?

    My spellbook in WoTR (open)

    [​IMG]

    • 2) Normalized full voice acting.
    Full voice acting is one reason which lead developers to implement dialog wheels and other BS like that. And full VA is extremely expensive. You can't have piles and piles of text with it. Write a dialog which only 1% of players will read due his choices is fine. But fully VA that dialog is too expensive. Fully voice acting lead to less variety in RPGs.
    • 3 )Normalized mmoish/diablo 3ish nonsensical mechanics(which ruined mmos) in CRPG's.
    This awful mechanics which makes 99,9% of mmos pseudo rpg's all about gear farming, cooldown managing, are present in DOS2 and worse. DOS2 has invented the worst armor mechanic ever. A secondary dual health bar. That is so awful. Larian doesn't care about game mechanics and lore being in line.

    Armor should deflect blows. That is how early Lorica Hamata roman armor to the modern tank armor works. In BG2, plate armor had different values vs slashing and vs blunt damage and it makes sense. A mace is much more likely to damage someone in plate armor than a sword. Larian is doing to the CRPG genre what D&D 4E attempted to do with the tabletop genre and worse, Is succeeding.
    • 4 ) Corrupted the definition of a "good rpg" to the modern audience.
    "dos2 is the modern baldurs gate" ~ Say a random reeditor which NEVER played BG. It is silly to have a amazing immersive masterpiece compared to a game which has game mechanics very similar to Diablo 3. This awful mechanics which plagued mmos and plagued ARPG's are now plaguing CRPG's.

    If CRPG's become mindless gear farming, cooldown managing games like most mmos already become much time ago, I'm sure. Larian contributed a lot on it,
    • 5 ) Created a anti turn based culture
    You see people who hate TB games cuz they only played RtWP CRPG's and DOS2. This people never played good TB games like KoTC 1/2, Dark Sun : Shattered Lands, Dark Sun : Wake of the Ravager, Temple of Elemental Evil and so on.

    In fact, here in Codex, DOS2 is more popular than ToEE. that is a sacrilege. At least DOS1 appears above DOS2. DOS1 is DOS2 without the awful armor mechanic. But sadly, Larian created a lot of TB hatters.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Source : https://rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=11193
    • 6 ) Game journalists praise Larian games
    Everything that game journalists praise is shit. Diablo 3? Dragon Age Inquisition?

    In fact, here is the same game journo reviewing DOS2 and BG2 for Switch

    Cancerous reviews (open)





    As you can see, the game journo praised a lot DOS2 but could't play IWD:EE in story mode.

    Now OwlCat. As Ontopoly have said in other thread, PF:WoTR offers
    And I would add :
    • Arueshalae
    • No Astarion. Instead, you can play as a baddas half vampire which uses his blood to strength his necromancy spells
    • Mythic paths giving tons of replay value.
    • No lv 4 archdruids, instead, lv 20/10 mythic casters
    • No cooldowns
    • (...)
    TL;DR : Larian is doing to the CRPG market what 4E attempted to do in the TT market. OwlCat is doing what Pathfinder 1E did when WoTC decided to make 4E.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  2. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    I'm a simple man, when I see ultima 7-like games, I buy them. God bless Swen.
     
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  3. Meredoth Arcane

    Meredoth
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    Rusty, are you talking about divine divinity? IT is IMO the unique good Larian game.
     
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  4. dacencora Learned

    dacencora
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    How many more threads are you going to make about this Victor? Yes, we get it. You and Ontopoly think that WOTR is great and that BG3 sucks.
    /thread
     
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  5. Meredoth Arcane

    Meredoth
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    I created a total of ONE thread criticizing BG3. And please. Refer to me as Meredoth. Also, this thread talks way more about DOS2 than BG3.
     
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  6. Saravan Savant

    Saravan
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    Did you make sure to pre-buff before making this thread?
     
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  7. Meredoth Arcane

    Meredoth
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    Criticizing Larian is like story mode, so was not necessary.

    Jokes aside, pre buff makes sense. Imagine the following dialog
    Fighter - Hey Druid, cast protection from poison, we are in the forest of deadly poisons
    Druid - I can't, you need to be in combat to that spell wrok
    Fighter - Fine, I will attack you, then you will cast and we will end the combat
    Druid - That wound't work. The spell will wear off suddenly after the combat ends by no good reason
    Fighter - Fine, I will adventure in this forest without protection.
    (...)
    Few moments later
    Druid : Ohhh no, the Fighter guy is dead. Now I need to find a random rabbit to engage combat, so I can cast Resurrection on him.
     
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  8. vibehunter Educated

    vibehunter
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    I don’t think Larian gives a shit about the “CRPG market”. Their audience are the normies and journos (you could kinda argue that Owlcat are creeping in that direction too, from a writing standpoint at least).

    Or are you saying that their popularity and success will influence other cRPG developers to emulate them?
     
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  9. Meredoth Arcane

    Meredoth
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    Sadly will. Look to mmos in 90s. Ultima Online, Dark Sun Online : Crimson Sands, EverQuest, all very different and look post WoW. Only WoW clones. If wasen't by kickstarter, I'm pretty sure that every CRPG nowadays would be a DOS2 clone. As for OwlCat appealing to normies in writing, I agree writing in WoTR is awful. However, the most important aspect, the gameplay is a masterpiece.

    My most disliked aspect is how everything anti egalitarian is evil and every aristocrat is a asshole. Kingmaker depicted aristocracy in a much better way. Sadly I can't turn Stolen Lands into a diehard magocracy which is the superior form of government for any high magical society.

    PS : I agree. Larian appeals to normies and journos.
     
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  10. The_Rusty_Knight Hater of Larian

    The_Rusty_Knight
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    Undeniably true. Swen's philosophy is a bad one. That's why I can confidently say that the game is going to be bad before it's out. It's because the base philosophy and core of it is bad and nothing good can be made if it all stems from a place of decline.
     
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  11. Fedora Master Arcane Patron Edgy

    Fedora Master
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    There is no incline in modern CRPGs. Not with these companies. The best CRPG currently on the market is Underrail.
     
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  12. Meredoth Arcane

    Meredoth
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    KoTC2 seems better. I will wait till steam/gog launch. My unique critique towards underrail is the existence of Cooldowns. The game is amazing but would be better without it.
     
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  13. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

    Gangrelrumbler
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    RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
    Owlcat can never be true incline as long as they bow the the SJW overlords and have overall atrocious writing. Kingmaker is nice and has more classes than any game ever but if someone asked me to recommend him a DnD like game I'd still go with BG2.
    1 - This point I agree with. I was kinda against inclusion of the Sorcerer back when BG2 released since the whole class concept seemed silly
    2,3,4 - Already done by Dragon Age back in the days. If anything Larian is just following a trail Bioware set years ago.
    5 - Actually the opposite of that is true. DOS2 sold gangbusters on consoles which showed that you can actually sell a western-style RPG to that audience. Because of that both Owlcat and Obsidian hastily added turn-based mode to their games.
    6 - Also true for Owlcat. In addition Owlcat actively panders to western game journos.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  14. The_Rusty_Knight Hater of Larian

    The_Rusty_Knight
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    Ultimately the IWDs are peak for me. Enough talking to give you a reason to go adventuring. Fun combat with lots of options. Long dungeon crawls in adventurous locations. Lava levels. Pure gameplay loop without side mechanics that just waste time. Can't be beat. Pathfinder and BG3 both could learn from IWD(2).

    -Pathfinder specifically could learn to drop side shit that stops you from playing the actual game, cut out some dialogue (kingmaker was better at this), and focus more on large maps and dungeons rather than smaller maps that are one and done quick offs.

    -BG3 specifically could learn to redesign their entire game and make something that actually resembles bg1/2 in some way.
     
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  15. Matalarata Arcane Patron

    Matalarata
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    Writing could be better in WotR but woke writing clearly shows you haven't played and are referring to memes or knoweledge from the first 2 hours of the game. You can utterly humiliate and crush the strong indipindy wimminz, the useless crusader queen and everyone else if you so choose. Owlcat doesn't force you to approve of anything.

    They even removed a tranny from the original Paizo module as far as I can tell.

    Edit: Maybe Rusty. I'm discussing fucking present now. In the present WotR allows all that.


    Edit2: The tranny isn't removed, just very well hidden I'm afraid. In any case, that's the original module's fault. All those characters are from the module.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  16. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    Success breeds contempt.
     
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  17. Meredoth Arcane

    Meredoth
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    Well said. I loved the lich mp(still would prefer vampire) cuz you
    ch 5 spoiler (open)

    can make the queen your bitch undead slave servant.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  18. Matalarata Arcane Patron

    Matalarata
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    ...I should probably avoid this thread for spoilers :negative:


    Show Spoiler
    edit: it's fine, I browse threads at my risk
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2021
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  19. flabbyjack Arcane

    flabbyjack
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    Can't we all just get along?
     
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  20. The_Rusty_Knight Hater of Larian

    The_Rusty_Knight
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    Meredoth, you really should be more careful with spoilers. not everyone beat the game in 4 days with 60 hours played somehow.
     
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  21. Meredoth Arcane

    Meredoth
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    Edited my message. Wil avoid further spoilers.

    WoTR was so amazing that I was playing it as a nonlifer. Spiked the gym and my sleep for it.
     
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  22. Stoned Ape Learned

    Stoned Ape
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    I agree with your points. Your selection of the final three words of the penultimate sentence of your opening paragraph triggered me, nonetheless.
     
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  23. KeighnMcDeath RPG Codex Boomer

    KeighnMcDeath
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    Wasn't Gangbusters originally a TSR PnP RPG?

    I might have to read more Larian threads. I wasn't aware they didn't give a crap about RPGS.

    I'd like to gauge how many patches come out and buggy issues never addressed in games.

    There are older games where the interface and play are fucking tedious or there are just plain bad errors in the games. I'd prefer older games get fixed up by modders if possible (since nany old companies are ka-put). Some od these modern games I heaf nothing about pet projects that patch them or mod them.

    A game shouldn't need a third party patch nor mods to be playable or enjoyable.
     
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  24. Gangrelrumbler Arcane Patron

    Gangrelrumbler
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    RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
    Take your pills, I'm on chapter V. Also what does it matter if SJW crap is heavily concentrated early on? It's still in.

    You can attack-click Khalid in BG1. Just because you can be mean to people on evil playthroughs doesn't mean they're not badly written. I'd rather be nice to a good character than have an option to be slightly snarky to a geriatric monarch.

    Nope. She's still in, and as far as I know you can't get rid of her on most routes.
     
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  25. NJClaw OoOoOoOoOoh Patron

    NJClaw
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    Pathfinder: Kingmaker
    I'm Ridin' with Biden I'm Ridin' with Biden
    He doesn't need to prebuff: with caster level 26 and Greater Enduring Spells, even his 1 round/lvl buffs last 24 hours. :positive:
     
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