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Lawless Legends - retro RPG for the Apple II/C64
- Thread starter Infinitron
- Start date
You are confirming what I am saying. The point is to break a world's record for coding with your left toe or something, not to make a quality game. As far as I am concerned, those guys are better staying inside their "demoscene" circlejerk, not polluting the gaming infosphere with self-centered shovelware.
Alchemist
Arcane
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2013
- Messages
- 1,439
If you haven't played the game how can you judge its quality? And the word shovelware is the furthest from my mind with projects like this. Shovelware implies minimal effort for maximum profit.
Consciously abstaining from employing all the technology advances that appeared after 1985 (and one has to be out of his mind to pretend that games did not objectively become far superior by the end of 80s due to increase in memory and CPU power, expanded graphical and sound capabilities, etc) speaks volumes of its quality. Sure, there were a few good games before 1985 (Lords of Midnight comes to mind), but even they would be far superior with non-stickmen graphics or functional interface.
Shovelware implies releasing a "game" for some other purpose than making a quality game. Like graphics-whoring. Or... code-whoring. How come the later is suddenly more respectable than the former? For me, there is hardly any difference between using a game as an excuse to show off flashy graphics and using a game as an excuse to show off one's l33t coding skillz. Remember that much talked about procedurally generated 3d FPS that was tucked into a 100kb executable? Everybody was awed about those 100kb, but not a word was ever said on whether it is remotely entertaining as a fucking game. No wonder it got abandoned after an alpha release - yay, coding challenge completed, mission accomplished... what game?
Alchemist
Arcane
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- 1,439
Gameplay comes first in how I judge quality, graphics and sound second. I think many around here would agree. Take something like Dwarf Fortress or numerous roguelikes. They have compelling gameplay despite the lack of graphics and sound. You don't need modern graphics and sound to make a good game - thinking otherwise is the very definition of graphics-whorism.
And I don't agree at all that these retro game projects are code-whoring. This isn't the demo scene - these guys are actually making playable games. But anyway there's not much point in arguing this, I think we just see it differently. I mainly wanted to say that I like hearing about these projects and don't see them as "polluting the gaming infosphere".
And I don't agree at all that these retro game projects are code-whoring. This isn't the demo scene - these guys are actually making playable games. But anyway there's not much point in arguing this, I think we just see it differently. I mainly wanted to say that I like hearing about these projects and don't see them as "polluting the gaming infosphere".
I'd actually rate sound higher than graphics. What the graphics don't show, or show badly, your mind can insert, but what doesn't come out of the speakers, or badly, is very hard to fix for your brain.
Plus, producing good quality audio is far cheaper than producing high quality graphics. Just look how SS2 did it. Yes, it also had good graphics at the time it came out, but the sound is still brilliant (especially the audio logs) today.
Plus, producing good quality audio is far cheaper than producing high quality graphics. Just look how SS2 did it. Yes, it also had good graphics at the time it came out, but the sound is still brilliant (especially the audio logs) today.
treborSux
Arcane
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2013
- Messages
- 1,742
Just to continue with the silent film analogies, the first talkies were shit, all the expressive craftsmanship of silent cinema was gone. That's not just faggy romantic nostalgia. It actually happened. Some directors and actors couldn't even find work anymore, because they couldn't translate to sound. Who's to say people that homebrewed their own C64 software for the past 30 years could even make a decent game outside out of it? Maybe their games on the C64 suck too, but they're probably very intimate with the instructions, quirks, and maybe even something like the lovely SID chip of a C64. I think it's pretty cool personally, it's not like there's any shortage of shitty game developers on modern platforms that it even matters.
Nice strawman. Dwarf Fortress, how about a fucking pacman instead? DF would vaporize Apple II in about 0.003 seconds. These games might not have graphics (even though they sure as hell would be much better if they had), but they still need massive processing power for that compelling gameplay you speak of.
:Flash:
Arcane
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2013
- Messages
- 6,483
People who still make paintings with canvas and brush genuinely puzzle me. That they ignore the technical revolution of the last 50 years and deliberately ignore functions such as layers and undo which are available in all modern graphics programs shows their autism and the futility of their work.
What pisses me off the most is that some of them dare to work on this shitty canvas stuff as a hobby and give away the result for free. They should stay in their basement instead of polluting the world of art with their outdated pictures.
What pisses me off the most is that some of them dare to work on this shitty canvas stuff as a hobby and give away the result for free. They should stay in their basement instead of polluting the world of art with their outdated pictures.
Black_Willow
Arcane
Meh, I'll only play it if it's written in assembler.
Stabwound
Arcane
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- Dec 17, 2008
- Messages
- 3,240
Ridiculous comparison.
Alchemist
Arcane
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2013
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- 1,439
Right on - I'd actually prefer to hear a well-made SID soundtrack more so than the totally cliche rehashed Hollywood scores we get in games now.
What is it DIFFICULT to understand that in that day and era, every machine had its feel ? You can tell a Master System game out of a NES game. You can tell an Apple II game from a C64 one or an IBM PC DOS one. There is that. This guy is making this game in two differents styles, what's so hard to understand ? Codex cannot into emulators anymore ?
Canvas and brush? Dream on.
Yeah, if it's free, it's above reproach. How else will you enlighten us?
Mortmal
Arcane
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2009
- Messages
- 9,185
I see why mondlbut is so butthurt about it, its time wasted that could be employed on the same rpg with decent interface and graphics on modern machines; That will nevers happen , the rpg genre is completely dead , no more improvements , and something as good as a game from the 90's-2000i s already a miracle .
This game is strictly for nostalgy purpose , quite similar to the demo scene on the C64 , its an hobby nothing else . Its nothing to do with dating 80 years old, its nostalgy from an era when you still had hair and went to party with your computer in the backpack, a computer with a soul . Lets face it almost no one is really interested into playing that anymore but i understand why hes doing it . At best it may still be enjoyable like ukrull for exemple.
This game is strictly for nostalgy purpose , quite similar to the demo scene on the C64 , its an hobby nothing else . Its nothing to do with dating 80 years old, its nostalgy from an era when you still had hair and went to party with your computer in the backpack, a computer with a soul . Lets face it almost no one is really interested into playing that anymore but i understand why hes doing it . At best it may still be enjoyable like ukrull for exemple.
His argument had nothing to do with it being free.
God, Codex has really gone full retard. This and the other thread about Doom graphics being shit ? What the hell?
precisely.
Well, we can always wait until Amiga and the 486 drift into the "nostalgy machine" scene
Mortmal
Arcane
- Joined
- Jun 15, 2009
- Messages
- 9,185
Yes but amiga rpgs were rarely done by one guy only. As far as i remember fate gates of dawn wasnt , stuff like ambermoon amberstar had a full team already. A rpg with amiga graphics like those would be heaven, thats already better looking than KOTC., id pay big money for fate with a full automap .
Actually, the Fate guy was/is apparently making a sequel, with cringeworthy animefag graphics even. It was only distributed privately, perhaps those gfx were copyrighted or something. It has a section on some german forum.
Fake edit: oh... apparently he died a year ago
BLuRry
The 8 Bit Bunch
- Joined
- Sep 7, 2013
- Messages
- 1
Since there seems to be a lot of self-righteous chest thumping about in this thread, I decided to go through two minutes of annoying-as-hell registration and link clicking to post a simple reply. I only point this out because it takes less time to start an Apple //e, boot a game and actually start playing it. Even with an SSD, your PC will still be lucky to get as far as a login prompt.
Now, let's set a few things straight for all the trolls that are mistaken that jeering others' work counts as intellectual discourse. I digress.
1) I am most certainly not autistic. A bit of an introvert, but assuredly I am quite comfortable in large groups, meeting new people, etc. In fact, a lot of ideas that are in this game started as bits and pieces of conversations had in the news groups with like-minded retro computer fanatics -- as others said the conversations there are very much like listening to 50 year olds talk about their car restoration projects.
2) The game is not done. I really can't emphasize this. And lambasting something that is still under development is really not a positive motivator. Because most of it is actually open-source (specifically Apache-licensed), you are more than welcome to pick up where we started. Fork the code base. Do your own thing with it. Show us up. Even better, submit some new features and bug fixes in a pull request and I'll be more than happy to entertain your contributions. It's all a labor of love and we're doing it for fun. We don't need your permission to rock, but there's always room for one more in this party.
3) Before going on and on about the graphics quality, 8-bit sucks, blah blah... I implore you to actually review the source code. Yes, you've seen some screenshots of the 8-bit apple stuff. Keep in mind that the editor was made in JavaFX and is designed with an open philosophy that you can build any sort of tile-based RPG game data for any platform. That includes full 24-bit non-pixelated ones too. It's just data... You're only limited by what the target platform can produce.
4) Are we going to port it to other stuff? Well, yeah I kind of need to test the event scripting and prove out some scenarios before I go through the challenge of converting my code from javascript/html5/canvas to 6502 assembly. Since the game editor is java-based, it makes sense to preview the game logic in something that takes little time to code. Since I do professional websites for a living, HTML5/Canvas/Javascript is the shortest path for me to go. It's not a promise, but it's a good next step so that the creative people can design a game and the coders can work on the engine without stepping all over each other.
So why the retro? Well, it's a return to our roots -- and for me a source of personal satisfaction to finish something I left unfinished over half my life ago. But mainly, it's coded on a retro platform to prove some points that we think are, and always will be, relevant to gaming.
1) A game that tells a story needs to tell a good story effectively, or it is a crappy game. Anything that misses this point ruins the whole ethos and the player's attention will sway to things they enjoy more, like watching grass grow.
2) Constraints are the best way to challenge yourself to do things you thought were impossible. Forcing a more modern flavor RPG into a small 8-bit form factor forces us to throw out a lot of things that don't make sense or, more importantly, DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE STORY. It makes us think about -- and really focus on -- telling a good story. I was kind of offended by a few comments that coding a new game on an old platform is only an exercise in futility. You know what is a real exercise in futility? A game that forces the player to experience-grind in order to go to part "B". I'm DONE WITH THAT MECHANIC.
3) Fancy cool wizbang stuff is meaningless unless it can be used to tell the story and bring the character in. We're not coding demoscene effects to show off our coding prowess. I know people who have been in the game industry for a LONG time. It's not about how good of a coder you are. It's about if your game is fun to play -- and a lot of that goes into the creative aspects of the thing.
I've had some interesting conversations with a buddy of mine who worked on some really big titles for a very popular console maker (namely a really difficult game involving a monkey wearing a tie) and he agreed: It used to be more fun making games when you had more limitations. Today people just slap whatever they want in the game and obsess over every little detail instead of thinking about what matters most: Making a fun game.
Don't worry, if you actually want to play it -- even via emulation -- you won't have to try very hard to boot it up. I authored JACE (Java Apple Computer Emulator), I can make this game work for you too.
-B
Now, let's set a few things straight for all the trolls that are mistaken that jeering others' work counts as intellectual discourse. I digress.
1) I am most certainly not autistic. A bit of an introvert, but assuredly I am quite comfortable in large groups, meeting new people, etc. In fact, a lot of ideas that are in this game started as bits and pieces of conversations had in the news groups with like-minded retro computer fanatics -- as others said the conversations there are very much like listening to 50 year olds talk about their car restoration projects.
2) The game is not done. I really can't emphasize this. And lambasting something that is still under development is really not a positive motivator. Because most of it is actually open-source (specifically Apache-licensed), you are more than welcome to pick up where we started. Fork the code base. Do your own thing with it. Show us up. Even better, submit some new features and bug fixes in a pull request and I'll be more than happy to entertain your contributions. It's all a labor of love and we're doing it for fun. We don't need your permission to rock, but there's always room for one more in this party.
3) Before going on and on about the graphics quality, 8-bit sucks, blah blah... I implore you to actually review the source code. Yes, you've seen some screenshots of the 8-bit apple stuff. Keep in mind that the editor was made in JavaFX and is designed with an open philosophy that you can build any sort of tile-based RPG game data for any platform. That includes full 24-bit non-pixelated ones too. It's just data... You're only limited by what the target platform can produce.
4) Are we going to port it to other stuff? Well, yeah I kind of need to test the event scripting and prove out some scenarios before I go through the challenge of converting my code from javascript/html5/canvas to 6502 assembly. Since the game editor is java-based, it makes sense to preview the game logic in something that takes little time to code. Since I do professional websites for a living, HTML5/Canvas/Javascript is the shortest path for me to go. It's not a promise, but it's a good next step so that the creative people can design a game and the coders can work on the engine without stepping all over each other.
So why the retro? Well, it's a return to our roots -- and for me a source of personal satisfaction to finish something I left unfinished over half my life ago. But mainly, it's coded on a retro platform to prove some points that we think are, and always will be, relevant to gaming.
1) A game that tells a story needs to tell a good story effectively, or it is a crappy game. Anything that misses this point ruins the whole ethos and the player's attention will sway to things they enjoy more, like watching grass grow.
2) Constraints are the best way to challenge yourself to do things you thought were impossible. Forcing a more modern flavor RPG into a small 8-bit form factor forces us to throw out a lot of things that don't make sense or, more importantly, DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THE STORY. It makes us think about -- and really focus on -- telling a good story. I was kind of offended by a few comments that coding a new game on an old platform is only an exercise in futility. You know what is a real exercise in futility? A game that forces the player to experience-grind in order to go to part "B". I'm DONE WITH THAT MECHANIC.
3) Fancy cool wizbang stuff is meaningless unless it can be used to tell the story and bring the character in. We're not coding demoscene effects to show off our coding prowess. I know people who have been in the game industry for a LONG time. It's not about how good of a coder you are. It's about if your game is fun to play -- and a lot of that goes into the creative aspects of the thing.
I've had some interesting conversations with a buddy of mine who worked on some really big titles for a very popular console maker (namely a really difficult game involving a monkey wearing a tie) and he agreed: It used to be more fun making games when you had more limitations. Today people just slap whatever they want in the game and obsess over every little detail instead of thinking about what matters most: Making a fun game.
Don't worry, if you actually want to play it -- even via emulation -- you won't have to try very hard to boot it up. I authored JACE (Java Apple Computer Emulator), I can make this game work for you too.
-B
Luzur
Good Sir
simply give the finger to these fucks and make the damn game.
deep inside they know they will play it, while they are talking smack here at the moment.
deep inside they know they will play it, while they are talking smack here at the moment.
Ultima iV (a port of the C64 version) has been released for iOS, so far only available on the UK AppStore (its free)
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/ultima-iv-c64/id693533286?mt=8
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/app/ultima-iv-c64/id693533286?mt=8
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2011
- Messages
- 97,487
oldmanpaco
Master of Siestas
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