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Let's settle this once and for all: Fallout 2 or Underrail?

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Ol' Willy, Jan 23, 2021.

?

Choose wisely

  1. Fallout 2

    57.7%
  2. Underrail

    22.9%
  3. Joe Pesci

    19.4%
  1. His Dudeness Educated

    His Dudeness
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    Haven't tried Underrail yet, still playing Wasteland 3. But if it merited a comparison with one of the best isometric rpgs in history I'll give it a go. ThanksOP!
     
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  2. jackofshadows Arbiter

    jackofshadows
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    Status means nothing. Fate of its franchise, fame, popularity, impact on the whole genre means nothing in this particular context. I fucking dare you, just sit and play through Fallout 2 right now. It's still a fine RPG, no question about, but Underrail is so, so much more.
     
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  3. Impressive Organ Literate

    Impressive Organ
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    My first time playing Fallout 2 was the most fun experience I've had with a flawed inconvenient character. My addiction to jet and other drugs created lots of great tense situations where the drugs would totally fuck me over or help me completely dominate in a fight. Underrail is great, but I mostly just remember doing a lot of scavenging and crafting so enemies would stop tearing my ass up.
     
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  4. Risewild Savant

    Risewild
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    I don't understand what you mean by this.

    I played Fallout 2 every year since 1999 to 2021, and I still prefer Fallout 2 to Underrail. :obviously:


    You say that because if we don't dismiss all of that, Underrail wouldn't stand a chance. After all, if it wasn't for the classic Fallout games even Underrail wouldn't exist. :lol:

    What about Total Conversions? Fallout 2 has nice ones, like Fallout of Nevada, Fallout 1.5 Resurrection, etc. while Underrail has nothing.

    You can even play Fallout 1 on the Fallout 2 engine these days, using Fallout et tu

    Here's a nice NMA list of all Fallout 2 Total Conversions:
    https://www.nma-fallout.com/threads...riginal-fallout-gameplay.212036/#post-4230595
     
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  5. ItsChon Resident Zoomer Patron

    ItsChon
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    All Fallout 2 proponents fail to cite any meaningful gameplay elements that it does better than Underrail, often choosing to rely on it's status as a legendary game or more subjective things like atmosphere and writing. They played the game years if not decades ago, and it has left a burning impression. This isn't even mentioning the fact that as we get older, new experiences (especially games) become less and less enjoyable. If these people had a shred of self-awareness they would acknowledge their biases and their would be no argument, I would be able to respect their opinion. Too bad most people are incapable of such things.
     
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  6. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    LoL most of them haven't even played it at all,watched to some retard playing it for 30 minutes and then just lie because it is a legend or some such shit. Didn't you see the last post of the page before this one ? It is great because it is AAA and you could shoot stuff oh and graphics.:lol:
     
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  7. Nikanuur Educated Patron

    Nikanuur
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    Your wench is a lie and your opinions are a poor excuse for mental diarrhorrea without any meaningful connection to common sense in this topic.

    I cited 10 of them already. I don't say Fallout 2 is best RPG ever, but sure is 10x more complex then niché Underrail. Heck, even Avernums had more ways in gameplay.

    You fkin dare me to play it now? I play it every two years again. And as stated, I liked Underrail, I applaud for the notion for such games to come up. But to say it's some better-then-legend game is just pwr nonsense derived from a brain stricken with donkey stuppor zombititis.
     
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  8. Nikanuur Educated Patron

    Nikanuur
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    Apropo, do you know why Underrail is not called a legend and Fallout 2 is? Because of the amount of people who like RPG who said so. Next time you wish to say Clint Eastwood is a bad actor, feel free to do so. But shait is in your own head. Yours and some little amount of people around you who don't understand the meaning of a common reference, and mistake it for facts or for their butthurt personal feelings.

    To think I even give you onions-for-opinions a credit saying Underrrail is a really good game... Which it is...

    You are hopeless.
     
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  9. Sweeper Arcane Zionist Agent

    Sweeper
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    But it is though.
    Another sign of bias, I'll appease them by saying Underrail is good, then they'll have to admit that Fallout is better.
    It's not if you take off your rose tinted goggles.
     
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  10. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    :smug:
    LoL what a butthurt AAA faggit. Muh graphic and muh shooting for rest of your life.
     
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  11. jackofshadows Arbiter

    jackofshadows
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    What do yo do there? I've also played F2 many times and after completing every quest and dissecting its combat system there's nothing left. Underrail have its build porn and a huge testing ground for them.
    Because these are indirect qualities of a product. The fact that Underrail is a spiritual successor is also 100% irrelevant, don't be absurd.
    What exactly is more complex in Fallout 2 than in Underrail?
    :deathclaw:
    Go on then, create a thread Fallout 4 versus Arcanum or whatever.
     
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  12. fantadomat Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck Edgy

    fantadomat
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    hoos tat ?
     
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  13. Hóngwèibīng Arcane Vatnik

    Hóngwèibīng
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    Fallout 2, no contest.
     
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  14. Risewild Savant

    Risewild
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    Maybe it's because players who prefer Underrail will just ignore or dismiss those elements with stuff like "I don't care about those, so they're not relevant" or "those suck!". You guys can't see past your bias yourselves. :lol:

    But, I can give you a few examples just from the top of my head:
    • Traits at character creation
      • Some traits completely change how the character works/plays and can even change the combat's gameplay (Jinxed for example).
      • Quite good to offer more character customization and roleplay.
    • Perks that affect dialogue, NPC disposition, NPC interaction, map travel, loot, skills, party members, character traits, level up and even change the darkness of the monitor (while also giving a combat bonus)
      • 99% Underrail Feats affect combat and crafting. This reminds me of the Perks in damn Fallout 4...
    • Attributes and Skills used much more outside of combat
      • Intelligence can even change most of the game, if you play with a low INT character.
      • They also have more uses in dialogue.
    • Has a Charisma Attribute
      • I don't really care much about this one, but it's good for a RPG to have an Attribute like this. Since it helps define a character for roleplay.
    • More meaningful Attributes/Skill checks
      • Underrail added skill checks in the expansions, but most are just to have more/better rewards, sell things for more money, get easier access to certain areas or to get shortcuts between areas.
    • Skills that are functional outside of combat or specific situations (like lockpicking)
      • Like First Aid and Doctor for example, you can use them at any time to restore HP and heal crippled body parts of the main character or other characters.
    • Have the ability to blow some (weak) doors up
      • This is good for those that don't want to invest in Lockpicking, but still be able to access some places
    • Overhead map travel
    • Ability to increase some skills outside of using skill points from leveling
      • Like certain NPCs that "train" the character, skill books, etc. Skill books are nice, since you can increase some useful but not "must have" skills to a certain cap (91%). 91% is OK-ish, but definilty not OP.
    • The higher your skill level, the more skill points it takes to increase it
      • Making it harder to "master" a skill.
    • Tag skills
      • This allows to make a more specialized character, since it allows to increase the Tagged skills using less points. It also symbolizes a character's natural talents, which helps with roleplay.
    • Optional companions
      • Always good to have an option for companions, for those who want them.
    • Companions will use their skills instead of the main character's, if they're higher.
      • Underrail doesn't have any companions so...
    • Doesn't lock the most useful things behind skills (Crafting)
      • In Underrail, you have to boost your crafting skills to get the best stuff. Unless you craft them, most of them will never drop or be available in loot. Crafting things also makes it so the value of the crafted item is higher than the sum of all the components used.
      • In Underrail, no NPC can be paid to craft things for you, even if you possess the components to make the item. In Fallout 2, it's specialized NPC's that do the crafting for you, so you don't have to invest on particular skills to get the stuff. Myron and Hakunin for Healing items. Crockett, Skeeter, Eldridge, Algernon, Buster, Valerie, etc. for weapon and armor upgrades.
    • Upgradable vehicle
      • It's nice to have have an option to make travel faster, with a permanent (and movable) storage space. Upgrades make it even better.
    • Reverse Pickpocket
      • Useful for certain situations and to blow up unsuspected NPCs.
    • Targeted shots that actually affect the enemy in different ways
      • In Underrail you have a couple perks that imply that they target specific body parts, but it's a bit strange you can't just target body parts without specific perks (and even with them you have a cooldown period), and while the Kneecap Shot does have an effect (remove movement points), the Aimed Shot is just a guaranteed critical hit.
    • Crippled limbs and other body parts for enemies, companions and the main character
      • With different penalties depending on what's crippled.
    • Combat descriptions
      • Fallout 2 has nice combat descriptions when targets get hit, critical, crippled, etc.
    • Critical death animations
      • Everyone knows that Fallout 2 critical death (or using the Bloody Mess perk) animations and sounds are great.
    • Continue after game end
      • I don't really care for this one, but that doesn't invalidate that Fallout 2 has the choice to do it.
      • You can't continue Underrail after the ending slides, you will have to delay ending the game if you want to keep playing.

    I could probably continue this list, but I run out of time to post.
     
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  15. Valdetiosi Educated

    Valdetiosi
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    Fallout 2 character creation sticks with me more than Underrail's, also Underrail is played most of the time inside tunnels and caves like it's isometric Nethack. At least Nethack has more variable gameplay.

    Preference is big on Fallout 2 also from the choice of companions, the enemy variety and music. It's one of those things that leaves impact even after quitting game.
     
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  16. Sweeper Arcane Zionist Agent

    Sweeper
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    If you're not getting Gifted every single time, you're playing the game wrong.
    Fallout has loads of flavor perks that serve little to no purpose. I guess you can get them for RP, still useless though.
    Underrail has Will.
    Which actually makes them have more of a point, instead of getting flavor dialogue like you do in Fallout.
    They are useless and you know it, stop lying. Half the skills in Fallout serve no purpose thanks to them either being straight up useless like gambling, or you can simply read skill books to raise them, which makes player's choice in character building less important.
    Yes, allowing players to raise their skill outside of leveling is somehow mechanically complex. It's actually the opposite.
    If you raise skills in Underrail, and you can't raise them all equally, you're still specialized bro...
    And that's a good thing.
    So now you're just listing differences.

    You're listing small superfluous factors that don't matter in the grand scheme of things to make Fallout seem like the more complex game, when simply put it's not.
    There are no abilities which you can use in combat, only passive perks, the majority of which are flavor perks.
    You're either shooting or hitting enemies, that functionally have no difference in abilities, only in numbers. This means the build you do have doesn't feel particularly different from any other build.
    The enemies themselves are fairly standard and there isn't much of a variety.
    You don't have a PSI system, which basically doubles the amount of builds.
    If you're not getting 10 AGI and Gifted on every single character, you're playing a gimped character.
    Fallout 2 is a much easier game by a wide margin.
    Fallout has two combat consumables, grenades and dynamite... I guess you can also throw rocks which is nice. Underrail has several dozen.
    Consumables in Fallout outside of combat don't amount for much, in Underrail they gave you small, but sometimes important buffs. Oh wait, I forgot, you can buy booze from a bartender 100 times to get a perk that raises your HP. Oh and you can use mentats to recruit companions after dumping CHA.

    Bottom line, the combat in Fallout is simple as is the character building and the progression, and the only good thing about the combat are the animations. Mechanically it's a fairly simple game.
     
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  17. holla_cabezas_de_mierda Arcane

    holla_cabezas_de_mierda
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    Fo2 felt more like a real world to me at times when I played (although Fo1 did so even more I suppose); with underrail it felt more contrived and l realized I was playing a game all the time and manipulating systems etc.

    I was able to lose myself more in the Fo2 world, which was a more enjoyable experience to me. I am not sure I would have that same experience playing Fo2 today, but I did when I played it, and I played it when it first came out, right off the store shelf..
     
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  18. jackofshadows Arbiter

    jackofshadows
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    But they are not relevant, that's the thing. Yes, it's cool that Fallout 2 has things like jinxed trait or that you can roleplay there not just as a tribal but as a retarded tribal and still make it but is it really an advantage? The downside of this is that F2 has very few diverse combat builds thanks to its extremely lopsided system. Gifted&10agi/luck&sniper/slayer > all, end of story, how fucking exciting.

    Essentially, in F2 you have plenty of superficial roleplay tools, while in Underrail you have deep mechanical roleplay tools because everything you do is bound to your build thanks to game's difficulty and there's a wide array of possible builds.
    Underrail also has Ferryman with his discourse and Yngwar with his foreign language which BTFO all F2's int checks combined.
    It's cool but it also refers to map design and exploration in general where F2 simply has no chance against Underrail.
    This is interesting point because there's an opinion that global map mechanic in classic Fallouts simply suck. Not mine, I'm fine with it but listing it as an advantage... not sure at all. Same goes for random encounter mechanic vs hostile Underrail's enviroment with partially respawning enemies.
    This is a crutch which was added after Fallout 1 system where you could quickly reach a skill cap with enough focus/int. A shortcoming of the system, basically. Not to mention that many skills has fairly low soft-caps anyway and some are outright useless as first aid that you've listed (come on, man).
    Which is a good thing. No matter what your char skills are, in Fallout 2 you ending up with the same fucking gear package: advanced power armor mk2, whatever few top tier weapons according to your skills, combat drugs which you've found along the way etc. And thouse 'weapon and armor upgrades' that you've mentioned ultimately are irrelevant because they affect only low/mid tier gear (even turbo plazma rifle isn't an exception because you can farm it). Exciting, huh? Fallout 1 was actually slightly better at that because similiar upgrades by NPCs were top tier.
    :nocountryforshitposters:
    Have you even seen Expedition trailer? Not to mention various travel options in the base game which are not present in F2.
     
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  19. underground nymph Learned Patron

    underground nymph
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    Strap Yourselves In
    With all my respect to Underrail, its builds are predefined and pretty much limited. Yes it is entertaining to make your own, but there’s a big chance you’ll end up in one of the few well known ones.

    With that said I still think that Fallout 2 isn’t that good. It’s added little to the first one while lost its charm.

    Joe Pesci thus.
     
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  20. Risewild Savant

    Risewild
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    They do matter, just because you are a combat fan and don't see the point in many of those things doesn't invalidate them. RPGs should have more than just combat options and that is one of the biggest things that makes me prefer Fallout 2 to Underrail. I need more than just blast enemies away over and over, no matter how many options to do it the game gives us.

    This is the biggest thing I have seen in this thread. People that tend to prefer Underrail do it because they prefer combat, while discarding most of what Fallout 2 offers that Underrail doesn't.
    Can you make a character that can talk it's way out of many obstacles in Underrail? Can you play a slaver and be locked out of a large part of the game? Can you become a child killer and have killing parties sent after you? Can you play as an idiot that can't even speak properly? These and way more are all nice RPG things that Underrail lacks. Underrail is combat focused, Fallout 2 combat is not the focus.

    And yet, Fallout 2 still has Targeted Shots in combat, crippled body parts with different penalties, companions (that can even accidentally shoot you, if you're in the way), Critical Failures in combat (I really can't remember it having them, but my memory is horrible... does Underrail has Critical failures?), etc. That still make combat in Fallout 2 have some things that are interesting. Might not be the combat porn that Underrail offers, but it still has a few good things that could also have been in Underrail.

    If you mean the Jet Skis, they are different from what I meant. You can only use them in the water, you can't use them in the base game, you can't use them to travel everywhere, you can't use them as storage and they have a more significant role on combat too (because Underrail is mostly about combat).
    Which is mostly used for psy combat, while Charisma is mostly used for non-combat in Fallout 2. They are very different Attributes that relate to a character in different ways. Will in Underrail is how strong mentally your character is, Charisma in fallout 2 is how others perceive your character.

    This:
    And this:
    These other points you guys make is exactly what I said at the start of my post. You guys dismiss all of these points because you consider them small and insignificant, but they are not small or insignificant for players who prefer Fallout 2. And this is why you can't understand why the majority of people prefers FO2 over Underrail.

    I say this again, Underrail is combat porn, all builds are aimed for combat, 99% of Feats are combat and crafting oriented, crafting is used to get the best equipment and chems for combat, etc. So people who like combat will love Underrail. Fallout 2 combat is secondary, you get more experience from doing quests than combat, you have way more quests that don't involve fighting, you can avoid (if you want) most of the fights when traveling (using the Outdoorsman skill), you have way more social interactions, your companions can use their skills when they are better than the main character, many quests can be done without fighting.
    Fallout 2 combat might not be as flashy and have as many options than Underrail, but the game has the right balance between combat and social interaction, between kill stuff and finding other ways of doing quests, between making a killing machine while leveling up and making a roleplaying character while leveling up.

    For me, no matter how good the combat is, if a game is mostly that, if you can only make a viable character that is a war machine, then I get bored of it after a while. I have to pause playing for a while to feel like playing it again. This doesn't happen with Fallout 2.

    Even if you think these things I previously pointed out are useless, or not noteworthy, it doesn't make them go away. They're still there, they still exist and they deserve recognition. They don't go away just because someone dismiss them.
    It's interesting that in this thread, people who prefer FO2 can admit that Underrail has better combat, but people who prefer Underrail don't seem to be able to admit all the things that FO2 has better. They all dismiss all of these things FO2 fans say. I have no idea what this means for the discussion, but it's an interesting conclusion that can be taken from it.
     
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  21. Lord_Potato Arcane

    Lord_Potato
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    It's another one of those 'autistic combatfag virgins vs proud everythingfag chads' duels. We've seen this all the time.

    Fallout 2 is a well rounded experience. Underrail focuses on combat and exploration. Both are great but I'd take a more rich approach most days of the week.
     
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  22. jackofshadows Arbiter

    jackofshadows
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    You can, yes. With stealth, pickpocketing, lockpicking, hacking, intimidation, persuation amd sometimes even crafting skills (biology for autopsy validation for example) is possible to solve many quests in Underrail without fighting. Don't make it look like Underrail is ALL about fighting and exploring. It has a plethora of quests, easily comparable to Fallout 2 amount and complexity. And of course you can lock yourself out of large parts of the game by turning some factions or stations againts you in Underrail, you can even become a mutant which will be shot on sight everywhere but has its own unique ending (very recently added, tbf). You can count this as a similiar gimmick to idiot playthrough and stop bringing it up over and over.
    Underrail has no critical failures per se but given how intense some encounters can be, cooldown system and reduced aiming cap for AoE effects as 90% you could say things like throwing flashbang down at your feet could qualify. Or missing the first shot of expected to be a long killing spree with sniper rifle as another example.
    WTF are you on about? You can use them in the base game, there're multiple waterways, you can use them as storage and yes you can use them in combat as well but that's a good thing.
    Will checks are extraordinary and provide some very exciting pieces of lore especially considering how carefully the game tries to keep its secrets and mysteries otherwise.
    There's nothing to understand. People who prefer Fallout 2 either simply like more the setting, the story, the looks or some other superficial aspects of it or they just stuck in the past and cannot adequadely recognize and compare game's mechanics anymore/ever. The only significant thing that Fallout 2 can offer while Underrail can't are companions. Which are making the game even less complex by providing some combat assistanse and passing a few skill checks. Some people really prefer to play with them regardless, supposedly it more fun that way. Okay, that's fair. Any whacky stuff and roleplay gimmicks like doin porn we can safely attribute to other superficial things.

    But aside from that Underrail does all what Fallout 2 does yet only better. Which is understandable and even expected since Underrail is a spiritual successor and it's been years since Fallout 2 release. Claiming that since Underrail has focus on combat and exploration Fallout 2 automatically does other stuff better is simply wrong. There're tons of 'social interactions' in Underrail and like I mentioned Ferryman/Yngwar some are just exceed what Fallout 2 could offer back then. And that's great, we've been waiting long enough for that to happen.
     
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  23. Efe Liturgist

    Efe
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    fallout 2 has running.
     
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  24. cvv Arcane Patron

    cvv
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    Played Underrail for about 10 hours, over two 5-hour sessions, and I liked most of what it was doing. But then I realized I haven't booted the game for a few days and I don't really feel like going back to it.

    Not sure why but I think it's because it's single character? I mean the combat mechanics is interesting and incredibly varied (smorgasbord or build options) but an isometric turn-based game where you control just one character? Something about that makes my hardon droop. Dunno, maybe I should give it another shot at some point.
     
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  25. Drowed Arcane

    Drowed
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    You mean that here, on Codex, where in the TOP70, Planescape comes in 1st place despite admittedly having bad/trash combat, people care about things like "setting", "atmosphere", "dialogues/writting" and "choices and consequences"???

    [​IMG]
     
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