Game News Lionheart Goes GOLD!

[Volourn]

Yeah;. But, the power atack problem isn't a problem with the combat systemt; but how BIO scripted it. It would have been better if they had allowed you to to tog combat abilities like that off and on much like IWD2 did. Much better that way.

NWN combat would be better if was TB; not RT. I would have to throw the game in the trash if they did unless it was done perfectly which I seriously doubt it would be.

 

[triCritical]

At their basic state; the IE, and Aurora combat system is basically the same.

Except for tactical movement. If your character is going to move while fighting completely out of your control, screwing up AoO's and removing all tactical elements from 3E that involve movement. You really have to ask yourself is the aniumations that move you in an arc are worth what it forces you to take out of a game.

The biggiest difference in SP is the lack of a full party in NWN.

But this has nothing to do what I said. And I am not going to slam NWN for being a MP game. The SP OC is not even worth mentioning.

Not to mention that NWNactually has much more combat options, and ways to deal with things than the IE games other than IWD2 because of the actual use of more available rules from dnd.

It had feats. But this no real big deal since BG2 added feat like abilities to kits. The only other things were handled implicitly like cleave and actually did not add anything tactical to the game. As far as parrying which isn't part of 3E, it only made combat longer and did not really add anything to the game.

 

[Volourn]

Parrying is very much a part of 3E. BIo just changed it up. In fact, parrying was a part of 2E as well. It also has knockdown, disarm, power attack, defesnsive casting (added in SOU), and all other sorts of combat options that the BG games didn't have that add to the combat.

I agree with your assessment of moving while fighting though. I could one place when the battle starts; and find myself a good ways away by battle's end. I find it makes the combat feel more 'epic"; and even more realistic since in RL the combatants aren't glued to the ground while engaged though someitmes it does seem a tad extreme.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

NWN combat would be better if was TB; not RT.

That's not really what we're talking about, though, is it. To be honest, though I like TB, I wonder if it would work in MP, especially with large numbers of people online who aren't all in the same party. It seems like it would be a nightmare to coordinate, and you'd end up spending a lot of time waiting on other people even if everyone's turn was resolved simultaneously. I've played NWN in MP with a guy who was trigger-happy with the pause button, and it wasn't too much fun.

I would have to throw the game in the trash if they did unless it was done perfectly which I seriously doubt it would be.

Why? The present system is far from perfect yet you like it. I haven't seen you really back up what's so great about the present system. NWN's kludge with rounds and RT seems to be the worst of both worlds to me.

 

[Volourn]

Walks: My last posts replying to Tri gives some things I like about the combat system. Plus, last i checked, I said I like the combat system; I never claimed it was perfect. To me, if you like the IE combat system you should like the Aurora combat system since it's bascially an enhanced version of the IE. If you don't like the IE like Tri) then I ain't really surprsied you don't like the Aurora. I'm still trying to figure out why Tri bought NWN since he basically hates all the BIO games thogh he gives *some* posiive points to BG1.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Walks: My last posts replying to Tri gives some things I like about the combat system.

Yeah, that they added some new options. New options, that are, by the way, bugged or poorly scripted as often as not. I just looked back, and that's all I could see.

Plus, last i checked, I said I like the combat system; I never claimed it was perfect.

Which was my point. You said anything less than perfection for a true RT game would make you throw it in the trash, yet you're perfectly happy with NWN combat, faults and all.

To me, if you like the IE combat system you should like the Aurora combat system since it's bascially an enhanced version of the IE.

Honestly, I do like it better than the IE games. I'll even lump PS:T in with that, at least as far as the combat. Mostly because I prefer to solo in SP, and because the mods and MP can be fun sometimes. Still doesn't mean it couldn't be better. In combat, doing anything but the most basic of tasks usually involves some level of frustration because of how things are implemented, at least in part from trying to combine D&D rounds and RT. Which is what I keep getting at. Why would a pure RT game be so much worse?

 

[Volourn]

Because, as I've said before, I don't really like RT combat at its core. Only a handful of RT combat games have had me enjoying them enough to continue playing them. That's why i said it would have to be xtra special RT combat for me to enjoy playing it. I guess me using perfect was extreme as nothing can be perfect. It was just an over the top way of getting my point across. Basically, comared to pause n play (NWN/IE games) and TB games; t one shave to do that much more to impress me.

 

[Ausir]

Well, as one of the Polish translators of Lionheart, I'm able to read all the dialogues in the game (although that will give me huge spoilers while i play the game), and i like the plot, character and dialogues very much.

The game can be played as combat heavy, but you can also avoid many of the combat situations by sneaking and speech.

Why almost every thread becomes a BioWare bashing thread here? :shock:

 

[Volourn]

Sounds good Ausir. Have you tried the combat? Is it good, and fun?

As for BIo abshing. It's an awesome past time. 8) Try it some time. :D

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Basically, comared to pause n play (NWN/IE games) and TB games; t one shave to do that much more to impress me.

Uh, didn't you hear Lionheart is RT w/ pause? (At least last I heard.) Far as I could tell that's where the Bio connection started, but maybe I'm mistaken.

Maybe we were arguing about 2 different things. I find the 6 second round kludge the most frustrating thing about NWN, and that's what I was talking about. RT vs. RT w/ pause wasn't part of the discussion as far as I could tell.

Well, as one of the Polish translators of Lionheart, I'm able to read all the dialogues in the game (although that will give me huge spoilers while i play the game), and i like the plot, character and dialogues very much.

The game can be played as combat heavy, but you can also avoid many of the combat situations by sneaking and speech.

Well, that sounds better than I expected. I'm going to wait and see, but hopefully it will turn out to be decent.

 

[Volourn]

Yes, I know it has apuse; but also all the blips is that it is action packed. That's usually something reserved for RT description to get the action gamers excited. That's why I'm worried.

Who knows what we are arguing about. All I did was while I'm looking forward tot he story/roleplaying aspects of LH; I'm unsure about the combat due to comments, and press releases from Refklexive/nterplay. Then, I get the comment that I like the 'crappy" combat of NWN so how can I not be looking forward to the possible 'crappy" combat of LH.

What's so frustrating about the 6 second rule? It's not that long of a time. In fact, it's a basic dnd rule; and BIO game concept since BG1. To me, the six seconds goes by very quickly. I hardly notice it as I'm planning my next move - or wathcing the characters exchange blows ... err... misses. :D

 

[Ausir]

I haven't tried the combat yet, because i didn't get the game. Just all the text from the game in one big file.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

What's so frustrating about the 6 second rule? It's not that long of a time. In fact, it's a basic dnd rule; and BIO game concept since BG1. To me, the six seconds goes by very quickly. I hardly notice it as I'm planning my next move - or wathcing the characters exchange blows ... err... misses.

IMO, NWN would probably be better if it were true RT. Splicing it up into rounds just leads to weird little discontinutities, like when you try to turn undead or taunt in the middle of combat and your character just sits there, often never actually getting around to it even if you give them over 6 seconds to kick into a new round. Other annoyances include power attack and similar feats not kicking in until the next round after you switch them on, but switching off if you just take a step, which doesn't make that much sense and can be frustrating. Unless you know the underlying game mechanics, which they don't really spell out to you, it can be confusing.

And also when you've got 1 attack every round and miss half of those, it's rather dull.

 

[Volourn]

Just like in pnp! :shock: Just don't miss. :twisted:

The problem with NWN being full flegde Rt is that then the quickest *players* would win out; and not the most welll developed *characters*. That's the key to RT, and if I want to test my reflexes; I'll play an action game.

 

[Jed]

What's so frustrating about the 6 second rule? It's not that long of a time. In fact, it's a basic dnd rule; and BIO game concept since BG1. To me, the six seconds goes by very quickly. I hardly notice it as I'm planning my next move - or wathcing the characters exchange blows ... err... misses. :D

The problem is that the real basic rule of D&D is that it's turnbased. Six seconds is a long time in a so-called "realtime" game engine. Ever play Quake with a really bad ping? That's about as satisfying as the Aurora debacle is to me.

 

[Volourn]

Sorry, don't play Quake. I dunno. I guess 6 seconds can feel long; but for some reason I don't notice it unless my characters goes on those missing streaks.

 

[DrattedTin]

My only beef with IE's combat was that it kept playing animations even when you were no longer attacking anymore in that given round. So even with a thaco of -20, you would miss every other visible swing.

 

[Jed]

Sorry, don't play Quake. I dunno. I guess 6 seconds can feel long; but for some reason I don't notice it unless my characters goes on those missing streaks.

You've never, not even once, played an on-line FPS? I have to say I find that a little hard to believe. In fact, I'm tempted to chalk it up to a certain contrarian personality trait I've sensed in your previous posts, but whatever, I'll work with you on this one: How about this, when you're playing NWN on-line, and suddenly all the action stops for a few seconds in the middle of a big battle? That's "lag." It's bad, real bad. I don't like it, and I don't want "lag" in my "games," especially when it's not even a limitation of hardware, but an aspect of poor game design--fudging a turn-based ruleset to frankenstein out a hybrid red-headed stepchild that neither satifies fans of true RT (Diablo), or true TB (Fallout). It's the worst of both worlds: the waiting of TB without the depth or tactics, and the flashy "action" of RT with none of the urgency or interactivity!

 

[Volourn]

I know what lag is. Believe me. I've felt it playing NWN on-line. Not cool indeed.Though the "6 second rule"; and lag are two different things. The former doens't bother me at all; while lag is evil.

And, yes, I have never played an on-line FPS. In fact, I've only rarely played an FPS at all. Just not my type of game.


And, yes, I like to debate thins. That most certainly a part of my personality - for good, and ill; though most would say for ill.

And, obviously, BIO's peusdo RT/TB pnp combat system must be satisfying someone since their games have been selling pretty good. Remmeber, NWN combat and it's "6 second rule" is an IE holdover.

Also, fo note, since you seemingly don't like that combat system which is fine; I'd advice you not to pick up KOTOR when it's released for PC as it is suppsoedly he same type of combat.

 

[Jed]

And, obviously, BIO's peusdo RT/TB pnp combat system must be satisfying someone since their games have been selling pretty good. Remmeber, NWN combat and it's "6 second rule" is an IE holdover.

I would actually postulate that rather than "satisfying" all that many people, Bioware instead uses its hype-machine to convince everyone they're the only game in town. It took me a while to figure out why their games left me cold, and that there were awesome games that while less well-know and with much smaller budgets, could make me a lot happier *cough*preludetodarkness*cough*cough*.
I never liked the six-second meta-round in IE either. Again, as per the FO2 l33t ub3r playor classez discussion, just because there is precedent for suckiness does not provide a basis for it to continue.

 

[Volourn]

Yeah. Al the people who continualy buy these games are all brainwashed. I need proof before I beleive such conspiracy theories.

 

[Araanor]

You are proof.

 

[Volourn]

You win. :D (that was too easy of a set up )

 

[Jed]

Yeah. Al the people who continualy buy these games are all brainwashed. I need proof before I beleive such conspiracy theories.

*Sigh* I hate to use the SM label, lest I ignite another RPGCodex (TM) Semantics Holocaust, but sometimes it's a little frustrating to try and write well-thought-out responses and have another person throwing out cavalier quips and flippant fallacies...

...but here goes: I never said anyone who buys a Bioware game is brainwashed, simply that they (Bio) hype themselves up to be the #1 game in town, and I liked their games just fine...until I played Fallout, Arcanum, Prelude to Darkness, and Geneforge. Then I knew what the genre was capable of, thus I've not looked fondly upon BW since, especially after the huge fucking letdown whose name I will not mention, lest the sensitve newcomers to the site become irritated that someone is kicking that ball around yet again, which I would like to point out is What We Do here at the Codex.

And the "conspiracy theory" you decry--hype to the point of (literal) hyperbole--is called Modern Capitalist Marketing Theory.

 

[Crazy Tuvok]

I neither love nor hate NWN and the IE games as much others here, but crunching DnD combat mechanics into a RT engine just does not work. It is something that I can tolerate if the rest of the game is worth playing for other reasons but imo it *always* fubars the combat. I will be interested to see if any of the RT-fanboys who also supposedly love DnD will play ToEE and if so what they think of the combat. I bet at least a few of them realize that TB is the only way to properly do DnD combat.