Preview Lionheart ph4t l3wt Feature #3

[Ausir]

Even Wasteland had it.

 

[Rosh]

Wow, I knew they were going to lobotomize the SPECIAL system, but I didn't think they'd stoop to something so corny.

 

[Sabotai]

On a somewhat similar note, I would love to see a skill system in which only the actual use would make you better in a specific area whether this be archery, swordplay or diplomacy.

Try Prelude to Darkness, it has that. It probably has one of the better versions of that as well.

Didn't know that. I definitely have to check that out. Didn't I read a post somewhere that RPGCodex was originaly dedicated to Prelude of Darkness?

 

[Spazmo]

No, but Zero Sum, the developers of Prelude do have their official forum for the game here.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

We were openned before Prelude was released, I just stumbled on it and liked it a lot.

 

[Section8]

I loved the way some skills were handled in Wizardry 7. Especially the swimming and the firearm skill. You only got better with practice.

You could still allocate points to those skills. You had to earn a few skills, like firearms, mind control etc.

So make a system in which all skills are only increased by practice. That's how it's done in real life.

Real Life is not necessarily the best thing to mimic. I don't think the "practice" system works with RPGs unless it's offset by something else, and there are a few reasons.

• When players level up, allocating skill points allows them to develop their character they way they want to rather than purely what the game has made them. It's also one of the the things that drives the desire to level up.
• With a practice system, the players gameplay and behaviour tends to be driven by what they want to improve instead of any kind of rational role play.
• There is always a disparity between how often different skills are used. Combat skills are used all the time, and player can utitlise random encounters and such to theoretically train their characters limitlessly. Skills such as speech have a limited number of uses, and so skill improvement is scaled to try and maintain the same rate of improvement as constantly used skills.
• If the player does find somewhere where they can exploit the game scripting, skills used les often can improve incredibly fast.

The practice system works well in dungeon crawls such as Dungeon Master, because the skill set is small and all skills require regular attention, but a similar system didn't work well in Dungeon Siege, because every item and spell in Dungeon Siege had hard limits that meant that the general behaviour of a character at any given time was dictated by what they had waiting in their inventory. Because Dungeon Master's item advancement was driven by exploration, that kept the player exploring, which kept the player progessing through the game. On a slight tangent, Diablo's item advancement was driven by stats, which were improved by leveling. This drove the player to level, which kept the player progressing through the game. But Dungeon Siege drove the player to perform repetitive actions, which makes them even more bored by the fact that what little interaction they have is repetitive.

My take is that the practice system can work if the game is suited to it, but otherwise it's better to go with a more traditional system, or at least some kind of hybrid, where practice either improves skills, or the rate a player can increase that skill come level up time.

 

[Psilon]

Daggerfall and Morrowind also had a practice-driven skill system, but you could pay for training and enhance skills without actually using them.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Not to mention that Dungeon Siege's drops were also more geared towards things you can't quite use yet, which was often frustrating. It's also rather silly when you consider the nature of the game and that it's a linear kill-'em-all with a fixed amount of monsters at any given point in the game, so the player was daunted by countless items that were just impossible for that player to use even if he focused on just one weapon type to advance.

Dungeon Siege's item system was also highly constrictive considering there were only armors based on what attributes were raised by those skills. If you were a warrior, and you found the most kick ass mage armor ever, it was nothing more than an item to sell because there's no way you could use it other than switching to magic skills and repeatedly using those until you could wear it. In other games, you could just wear that armor assuming you had the stats for it. Take Diablo, where a level up allowed you to allocate points for strength, regardless of who you are.

So, yeah, there are problems with the practice system, and Dungeon Siege shows off those problems very well.

 

[Psilon]

What's worse is that the mage armor never requires mage skills, just high intelligence. Trying to raise multiple stats in Dungeon Siege is futile. Period. Unless you hyperspecialize, you're toast. If you switch to the bow mid-game, your Ranged skill will get nice and high, and your to-hit percentage will become respectable, but you'll never be able to use a good bow because raising dexterity is nigh impossible for a former mage or fighter.

The only mid-game multiclass that doesn't completely torpedo one's chances of decent items is learning combat magic. All it takes to get good combat spells is practice; one doesn't have to raise stats to get new spells. Let the others in your party soak the damage while you keep casting Firebolt or Firespray ad nauseam. Nature mages wouldn't be bad either except for the pitiful low-level spells.