Looking for associate(s) to develop an indie rpg game

[Mojo]

I guess I wouldn't reccomend making independent games for anyone, out of personal experience. Unless you have money enough to pay people and invest or you are some kind of jack of all trades ( modeller, texturer, programmer, banker,illustrator, writer) with a lot of time on your hands that is. It's just too difficult. You are going to have to depend on someone for your project to ever get anywhere and when that happens..chances are you will be disappointed.

Chances are you will not be doing exactly what you want as well. I was extremely lucky to get the deal I had ( as was my associate), but that was just a one in a million situation.

After over an year of hard work and putting college and personal life aside all I'm getting is money from selling 3d models. It's decent money but far from enough for making up the disappointment and wasted work.

If you were doing it to make a profitable game you were doing it for the wrong reasons, son.

Also, you posted this two days ago and now you have given up? Why even try at all? You seem to think artists willing to do this sort of thing are super rare, but you expect a coder to see this in a day? Honestly, the people here arguing with you is the best thing to happen for you because it put this thread on the main page sidebar and when you cool your head you might actually learn something.

I will probably make an in-depth design document as suggested ad nauseam and start a new thread. Leave it up. I will still start selling the assets though. I will still retain wrights to their use and it's not like I couldn't use the money. I really need something in exchange for that year's work.

 

[sportforredneck]

Chefe: Hey! You should join my poorject which I've given up on twice in the month it's been alive and have conscripted someone else to do over half of the actual work.

Mojo: No, I'm not interested, but you've got some good ideas, good luck!

Chefe: Well then you're just a lazy faggot who wants other people to make your game for you!

sportforredass: OMG YOU BEEN MAEN TO CHEF!? WARGAGAGAGAGA NO ONE LIKES YOU GO AWAY INGORING U NOW!!!

 

[almondblight]

http://www.silvertreerpg.org/

And other open source engines (like FIFE) need content, and would probably be willing to work with you on the engine. If you don't mind working for free, it may be your best bet.

 

[Mojo]

Like I said, I really don't intend to pretend I'm a programmer ( or that I have the time to become one) and try to work what my former associate used to. I also really don't want to jump into one of these free engines. They are just not what I want.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

First of all, what you are saying s ridiculous. AOD? M&B? Eschalon? Artistic vision and even artistic quality are a totally different thing ( also very subjective) I will give you this, but if we are talking about technical quality, and yes we are, my models are better than those in that aspect, without argument.

You obviously don't know a thing about art, or about modeling. You pack your threads with a mix of bizarre lies and boasts -- like the assertion that your amateurish boxmen are superior to Oblivion's character models -- and you go ballistic at the slightest criticism. Why would anyone want to work with, let alone for, you?

Notably, you fail to respond to my points about your lack of planning, your lack of rigging, your lack of animation, or your flat out lie about having 20% of the artwork done.

The point about your using stock models isn't that a game can't use stock materials (although the less you rely on stock, the more personality your characters have; compare BG2 to PS:T). The point is that you claim to have a fifth of the artwork for the game completed, but what you show are four characters with such minute variations between them they might as well be the same character with different load-outs. (Note, for example, that three of the characters -- a hard-bitten scavenger, a preposterous merchant in a tophat, and an even more preposterous merchant in a bowler cap -- are wearing the same stupid weightlifter's gloves.)

You ask what would be the point to lying. Well, there are two possibilities (your telling the truth is not one of them). One is that you simply have no idea how much artwork a game requires, so you've done a dozen variations on a stock male model, maybe rendered up a barn and a cactus, and figure that the major work is over. The other is that you are lying about how much is done to try to entice someone to work for you.

I'm not sure which it is; you seem in turns self-deluded and comically duplicitous, so maybe it's a mixture of both.

I should add that I strongly suspect that your self-appreciation is the product of being on the solicitee side of game-making -- that is, fawning amateur programmers gush over your amateur artwork. But their judgments are themselves a mix of ignorance and desperation, so you shouldn't put much stock in them.

--EDIT--

I should add that your claim that a post-apocalyptic Western setting is artistically "original" is just a wee bit laughable.

 

[Mojo]

The 20% were for the original game design yes. And it was a big game world with lot's of variety.

I never claimed my assets were better than oblivion. Only that I didn't like their character art. I do take pride however, in mantaining the quality you see in those screenshots being that I was one man realisticcaly making all the art for a large game. I always worked fast and kept my productivity high.

I'm not sure if I should respond to the rest. You are obviously trolling and I have no interest in explaining ( let alone prooving) anything to you. It's actually quite complicated prooving something like "I have 20% of x game art assets done" unless I send you all my files and give you a detailed list of everything I planned to have. If posting some screenshots of more assets I made will make you shut up I will do that though. It's worth the small effort.

Btw, you sound like someone I know from another forum. Do we know each other?

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Yes, I rove the Internet haunting your every footsteps. Mojo, I am your conscience!

What you don't seem to understand is that your art isn't that great. It's not terrible. It's perfectly respectable. From a technical standpoint, it is probably on par with some successful indie RPGs. But it is not "professional" and it is not better than what you find in "big budget games," no matter how much praise other amateurs have lavished upon it.

I never claimed my assets were better than oblivion. Only that I didn't like their character art.

Character models are usually the hardest thing to do. A good number of big budget games suck at it ( Bethesda for instance).

The only way to describe that is delusional. Your goofy snail-eared, abananatomical characters are fine as amateur freelance stock work; they are not AAA or even AA game work.

Anyway, one easy way to support your claim is to post a wide variety of art. A female character, a horse, a saloon, a weathered skeleton, a rattlesnake, a conestoga wagon -- you know, the scene-a-faire of a western setting. The living things should be posed -- since presumably you've rigged them -- in some interesting fashion, like a keyframe. [Actually, I just reread your post and realized you can't rig and you can't animate. The fact that you think these are trivial casts more doubt on your knowledge of 3D art.] Since you're also "an accomplished multi-instrumentalist and composer," maybe you can give us an MP3 of the music you'd come up with.

 

[Mojo]

Don't worry , I will post more and better screenshots when I start a new thread with the design document. Surely some mp3 samples as well. If you don't like my character models you probably won't like the rest of my work though, it's all around that level of quality. I also feel that for some reason you have some kind of bias towards me...maybe it's because you are a troll, maybe some other reason. I don't really know.

And WT2, thanks for the feedback. Now that I know that you think my work isn't good and that I'm some kind of crazy con man trying to convince someone into working with me, is there anything else I can do for you?

 

[WanderingThrough2]

I never said that I thought you work wasn't good. I said it was perfectly respectable for an amateur freelancer. That's better than what most people can do. It's just not better than what the pros at Bethesda can do, or better than what Taleworlds has done with M&B.

My bias toward you is a reaction to your self-congratulation. Rather than writing a post about your dedication to the project, your diligence, and your experience, you write a self-congratulatory series of boasts about how awesome and multitalented you are, followed by a string of denigrations toward other people's work. When I see something like that, I like to jump in. It's like squeezing bubble wrap.

I also can't stand when indie gamemakers blame their failure on their volunteer teammembers rather than one their own lack of planning; perhaps because it is our own vices that most offend us.

 

[Mojo]

Well, I really didn't mean to sound like that ( if it did, I apologize, I'm not like that really), and I don't see nobody but you seeing it and being offended by it. The fact that I'm not offended by your inflamatory comments and don't give a rat's ass to your ad hominem attacks and your very unflattering opinion of me, my work and my thread should be proof enough of how "self indulgent" I am.

If anything, all I wanted to attest to with what you perceived as "self-congratulatory" was the fact that I can work with quality modern graphics and that most indie games have a problem with that due to resources.The fact that I can make up for that is really worthy of mention I believe.

I never pointed to any game and expressed superiority or boasted ( at least I didn't mean to), that was your mistaken perception at work. Are my graphics techniccaly superior to what you see in games that use outdated engines like AOD or M&B? I believe so. Is it artisticcaly superior? I would never say that. They have a completed game vision, all I have is 1/5th of a game and all I'm showing is, as you put it "4 bananatomiccaly snail eared characters". I personally love the art in both these games, specially AOD.

Are you satisfied now, angry young man?

 

[sportforredneck]

I should add that your claim that a post-apocalyptic Western setting is artistically "original" is just a wee bit laughable.

Though it is 1930s themed...although that would mean it's not really a western anymore...Not that that makes it anymore original though. Plus it's all about execution nowadays.

 

[Mojo]

I believe it depends on your concept of "original" dear WT2. The world is filled with radioactive westerns visually styled after depression era U.S.A after all, so it's hard for me to make something different and unique with that idea, right?

 

[cardtrick]

Well, I really didn't mean to sound like that ( if it did, I apologize, I'm not like that really), and I don't see nobody but you seeing it and being offended by it.

I wouldn't say I'm offended -- it's hard to be offended by anything when you've lived on the internet for a while -- but I certainly did think you sounded like a bit of a pompous ass after reading your post, and subsequent posts haven't really helped matters. So no, it's not just him.

That said, sounding like a pompous ass is pretty damn common among game developers . . . I think it largely goes with the territory. Maybe you have to be so self confident that it comes off as arrogant just to maintain the drive to do this kind of thing.

As for the art . . . the screenshots were quite good. Certainly they compare favorably with most indie games, although it's extremely hard to judge from isolated models like that. I certainly do agree with previous posts that what you've shown is no evidence at all of having 20% of game's art assets done. Is it true that those models haven't been rigged and animated? When looking for art assets for my own project a few months ago, I eventually decided to completely stop looking at unrigged models -- even when they're free, the effort required to rig and animate a model (especially one not made with that in mind) dwarfs the basic modeling and texturing work.

Anyway, I have to say that as someone potentially interested in programming for a game project, I found myself having lots of doubts. I started reading the first post thinking "wow, this is awesome, but no way this guy would want to work with someone as unskilled as me" and ended it thinking that I couldn't really see the project going anywhere and I probably wouldn't want to work with you anyway. I'm trying to be helpful here. I think you're shooting yourself in the foot with the way you're talking about this . . . some examples are in order.

Unfortunatelly he lost interest, we argued and we parted ways, wich left me with the option of either selling all my work and giving up making a game for once, or go into a vain and impossible quest to find a new associate(s).

Here's where I started to have doubts. First, you lay blame on your "associate" (which is kind of an insulting term anyway . . . why not call him your "partner"?). Then you consider quitting making games completely (which doesn't speak much for your dedication). Finally you insult/alienate everyone who might be interested in joining you by claiming that the search for someone is vain and impossible -- why should it be? Do you feel like you're so much better than any programmer that no one else measures up?

I already bought the instruments I will use, I'm an accomplished multi-instrumentalist and composer

Yikes. And here's where you really lost me. First, claiming to an "accomplished" multi-instrumentalist and [composer is pretty bold. It sounds like bragging, and it also sounds like bullshit. Programmers and artists are a dime a dozen online, but composers are rare, and claiming to be "accomplished" (which directly implies that you have, you know, accomplished something, maybe had some songs sold, or won awards) really requires more explanation or at least a couple of sample tracks. And then you mention buying the instruments already, as if that's supposed to impress someone. I guess it shows commitment, and maybe that's how you meant it, but what it sounds like is that you feel like buying instruments is a big chunk of making the score, when obviously it's really all about talent and hard work.

I have about 20% of the in-game assets done ( if you count the relevance of a reliable software pipeline, base models,textures and uv maps, than make that 1/3 of all the work done)

And this was where I finally decided that my initial interest was misplaced. Claiming to have 20% of the assets done is simply nonsense. Any developer -- especially an indie developer -- worth his salt knows that "it'll be done when it's done" is the only accurate assessment of things like this, especially when so much of the game is up in the air and you don't even have a design doc. Not to mention . . . if the models, textures, and uv maps are part of the extra stuff making up the 1/3 figure, then what the hell is the 20% made up of? Also, as for a software pipeline . . . surely you must realize that having a reliable pipeline is meaningless when you don't have a game engine.

There are no scenes done because we were waiting for the release of C4's terrain generator.

This doesn't make much sense to me. The terrain generator would only be relevant in large outdoor scenes. In areas with highly varied outdoor geometry (cliffs, caves, etc.) and in anything indoors, you'd still be modeling all the meshes by hand. A terrain engine is essentially a renderer for a heightmap, so it can't really be used anywhere where there are two things on top of each other (a cliff with an overhang, a cave, a building with a roof, etc.) or anywhere where there are very sharp or small-scale variations. Effectively, this means that any settled area will still be made up of meshes that you use along with the terrain. So why are there no indoor scenes? Or town scenes? I really don't feel like I can judge your abilities as an artist until I can see how various things fit together and that you have a good sense of design and an overall artistic vision. If all you have are "characters, items, weapons, and scene props", how is that any different from buying a couple of model packs from Dexsoft or The Game Creators and mixing/matching with some of the free assets available out there?

Anyway, I'm not trying to be an asshole here. I really do think your character models are good, and the last thing I want to do is discourage anyone from developing indie RPGs. But I feel like you're trying to hard to sell yourself, and have an overly high opinion of your own skills. Some humility would be welcome -- if you hadn't claimed to be a fantastic artist, musician, and composer and basically acted as though you were making a once-in-a-lifetime offer to any programmers out there, I think the reaction would have been a lot less negative. The fact is, you're not an artistic genius. You're not bad, either, and if you keep working I think you'll end up being very good.

But I would say that it's time to think, hard, about whether you really want to make a game or not. If you do, then stop trying to impress people, and start trying to attract them. Admit your flaws. Don't be cagey. Provide some proof for your claims, or don't make claims that require proof. Show some models that aren't all very similar. Try rigging one of your models. Post a few songs. Consider starting a design wiki (I think wikis are better than design docs in this day and age). Give some indiication of your writing ability -- what really attracted me to Chefe's project (American Hare) were his sample dialogs.

If worse comes to worst, you can still go ahead and make a game without a dedicated programmer, or at least start on it and get to the point where you have enough put together to make a demo video that will really attract team members. C4 isn't a great choice if you can't program -- it, like Torque, is an engine that offers and requires full source. You're not going to get too far with it without knowing C++. NeoAxis has similar graphical capabilities, but much stronger and more artist-oriented resource and map editors, and less need to mess with source code. (On the other hand, it has a fairly annoying community, and uses the Ogre MESH format rather than going through Collada like C4.) You might also want to consider an engine like the Baja Engine, which is really oriented towards artists -- there's no need for editing source code at all, it's designed to use artist-oriented tools like XSI, and all game logic is in a scripting language, Lua, that is far easier to pick up for a non-programmer than a more general purpose programming language.

 

[Mojo]

Thanks for the reply cardtrick. Again I apologize to anyone if I sounded arrogant or offended anyone, it wasn't my intention and I'm not like that.

I guess you are very right though, I need to put more info and some...lay to my claims ( specially the musical ones). I will try to start a thread with a carefull and well thought design document , more screenshots and samples of my music work in a few weeks. Will that suffice? I ask you as a formerlly potentially interested programmer.

The "accomplished multi-instrumentalist and composer" indeed sounds like utter bullshit, I think I was not paying attention when I wrote that . I do play a good number of instruments, but I'm only specialized in one ( guitar). Also, most of the instruments I play are of the guitar family ( lap steel, brazilian viola and else) so don't think I'm the "play sax with mouth and trumpet with my ass" type. I guess the "Im no ry cooder" part was in place though . I'm sorry if I laid the impression that I'm a super talented musician with two golden records or anything of the sort. When I upload some samples you will be the judge of it. I think I'm decent at least.

If I were to write that right now,calmly, I would deffinately remove the "accomplished" part, yes. I guess I shouldn't even be talking about music for the game at this level.

As for blaming my partner/associate ( remember my native language is portuguese. I actually don't quite differ these two words), that's really not the case, though I'm not interested in dwelling on that subject.

 

[Mareus]

I have been following this thread for a while restraining myself to answer until I saw where this is going. Since I am involved in a project of my own and I also lost a partner I know how hard it is to pick up the pieces and move on. The things I want to ask you is this.

Why have you started making a game in the first place? If you are in it for money or fame, I can tell you that your project was doomed to fail from beginning. If you invested money in it, I understand why you expect at least the return of invested money, but I really think you should concentrate on the game and just forget finding an assosciate, money issues and fame.

I am using RPG maker VX and although it is pretty limited in some areas, it is good enough for me to make my story. When I have something concrete I will go to dev forums and share my game there. Maybe someone will become interested enough to join me and help me out to polish the game, filling it with new textures and adding new material in it. But those things would just be eye candy when the game is already almost finished.

I agree making a game is hard work. I too had times when I just wanted to give up, but whenever I make something new in my game, it awakes my desire to continue. Inspiration and determination come by themselves. This is my suggestion to you. Just go and start making the game. One day at a time. If you are not a good programmer, find a software that does not need programming knowledge and do with it what you can.

Comming here and telling people how you would not recommend making an indie game to anyone does not help your case. It frankly pissed me off a bit. Just go and make the game. Inspiration will then return, making hard work something you will look forward to.

 

[Naked Ninja]

@ Mojo : Your concept sounds interesting and your models look good. Hope things work out for you, and ignore the idiots, they're mostly just ignorant and aggressively so.

75 page design document? Lol. There are two main types of development. The older method, where you plan out everything in advance and then carefully follow this huge pile of documentation, often called the waterfall method (one step completes and leads into the other in a flowing, linear "step" concept) and rapid or iterative development, where you work out some basics, build them, then iterate and flesh them out as you go along in ever tightening spirals.

The second method is becoming much more popular because it is easier to get a working prototype up, see what works and what doesn't, discard the crap and change details before you spend hours and hours on a flawed design.

Quite frankly, I find the second method vastly superior, and it is what I practice. It's almost impossible to predict exactly how things will play out when you're actually doing them in game by looking at numbers on paper.

Ignore the tossers who think you need to post a 75 page design document. Most of them are obsessed with the "concept" part because they have little else to offer. Sadly, the reality is that ideas are a dime a dozen. Implementation, actually doing something concrete and useful is what is key. I far more respect your models (which take a lot of work, char models are the hardest, without a doubt) than 20 pages of text file.

Right, try subtracting a 50.000 polygon model in a 5.000 one. Good luck. I suppose you mean to use those automatic polygon reduction tools for max or whatever, but everyone knows that they don't work too well for such things and that polygon cutting and LOD has to be done by hand to be decent.

100% accurate. Lol, saying you can just take a 50k ply model and turn it into a useable game mode is simply ignorant. Which is why 90% of the models on turbosquid are useless to any game developer (specifically, me. Anyone know of some low poly medieval ship models for sale at decent price?). Unless an artist knows how to actually make good models within the constraints of a game engine they're useless. Knowing how to make the most of less is a valuable skill.

Honestly, I can't blame the guy. Personally, this looks like a terrible deal.

Actually, it is a fantastic deal. A dedicated, skilled artist working for free on a project is an incredible boon. Do you have any idea how much a contractual artist charges per item for custom work? Few indies could afford more than a handful of pieces, nevermind the amount of items an RPG requires.

Also, ignore Chefe, you're right to be skeptical. Ideas are easy to come up with, the skills and dedication to implement those ideas aren't. Chefe gave up the minute people started taking him seriously, IMO it was all a bit of a joke which people started taking seriously and he got uneasy when he realized people expected him to deliver and tried to back out. Now he has changed his mind again and is half taking it seriously again. That flip flopping is not a good sign. If he settles down, displays some dedication and proves he can do more than talk he might be able to get something done. Until that point it's all forum hot air.

For practical matters, I can say there is something like a design document, just not an organized one. Like I said, it's all spread around my e-mail box, conversations with my former associate and really well developed design ideas.

Nothing wrong with that. Use it as a base, get the basics implemented, iterate.

I would say a lot (a ***HELL*** of a lot) of decisions went through various stages, committees and reviews. The team generally consisted of about 8-10 people (mid- to large-size by indie standards, I suppose) and we spent a great deal of time in meetings just for these sort of things.

The bigger the company, the more useless, productivity sucking meetings you have to sit through, yes. You'd be amazed what a small, agile team can do without the bureaucratic cruft.

You said you have 20% of a game done, why restrict yourself to showing only male characters?

If he has most of the character models with clothing/kit done then yes, he has 20% done. Character models are a huge chunk of the game art requirements, they take far longer than buildings and other assorted inorganic/static props.

Remember, this isn't about showing you are good at art, it's about attracting a programmer to help you.

Wrong. If I was looking for an art partner I'd primarily be interested in how good he is at art. The fact that we could work together to flesh out the design would be a plus for me, I don't want to be someones cog.

There's a reason why in 98% of independent games all the people involved have technical knowledge. That's the same reason why mainstream games suck, because douchebags with nothing but bad ideas are the ones running the show ( Carrie Underwood's idea is pretty awesome though and he can write, so don't think I'm talking about him or all "designers" for that matter, just the vast majority of them). Unless there's money involved, people usually aren't interested in taking the plow to make someone else's game. Face it, brainstorming a game while somebody else actually makes it is propably the wet dream of everyone in these forums. Of everyone that likes games actually.

Quoted for truth mate, quoted for truth.

But they're below the level of the recent crop of successful indie RPGs (AoD, M&B, Depths of Peril, Frayed Knights, even Eschalon).

Wrong. They're quite good. However, let me take a moment to point out how stupid it is to compare AoD to these. AoD's models are built for an isometric game and aimed at lower spec machines, they make do with less closeup detail and fewer polygons. You cannot compare models built for viewpoint/engine spec X with models built for viewpoint/engine spec Y, it's apples and oranges.

Moreover, you've posed them in a way that strongly suggests they aren't boned or rigged,

No, the classic T pose is the root state of most models. So, if you place them in an engine without playing an animation thread (which is dependant on knowing the engine) they will "rest" naturally in the T pose.

Look in this thread, notice how all the clothing models are in the T-Pose? Oscar is only showing off parts of the model. OH NO, AOD HAS NO ANIMATIONS!!!

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=63.0

No one gives a shit about you or your "game" please continue undisturbed.

I do. Please, don't give up, you seem sensible, skilled and have a grounded, realistic idea of what it takes. People who actually have skills are quite rare, as opposed to the talkers. Who are a dime a dozen. I can't think of spare programmers offhand who might volunteer to work for free though, sadly.

Btw, you sound like someone I know from another forum. Do we know each other?

That type of poster exists on every forum, lol.

Also, ignore the forum kids about being "arrogant", many have a strong urge to prove themselves so they treat it as a challenge. Chefes childish response to your polite declining of his offer is an example.

Far better to sound competent and confident than hesitant and unsure. Saying "well, I don't think my art is too bad, what do you guys think, please give me self validation." is going to put me off. Treat it like a job interview, not a beggar knocking door to door. Sell yourself and if people are interested they can judge the quality of your work, contact you for further samples. Try to shrug off the aggressive troll kiddies, sadly, they litter the internet like landmines and they will just waste your time in pointless arguments.

 

[rpgcodexusername]

yeah Helton makes a good point, it only seems to be 1 or 2 people attacking you

if you create a terrain with this program:
http://freeworld3d.org/

send it to me in blitz3d format
place some of your buildings on the terrain
send me some character models

Ill send you a demo of them in a game engine

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Aww, look at NN trying to recruit an artist!

 

[Carrie Underwood]

You came to the Codex, and the Codex is what you shall get. As someonce said, we're a bunch of angry cunts. There is no need to lock this thread. No threads are locked at the Codex - they are retardoed (but only the really, really stupid ones). This thread has a lot of good discussion in it. Three pages of full posts in one day is a testament to that.

If you're in this to make money, you should not try to break into the industry by going independent (I hate the word indie, which I associate with deviant art, modest mouse, and various emo fucks, so I won't use it). You should put together a resume and attempt to join up with an already established gaming company. After all, if your credentials are as illustrious as you say they are, finding a team that wants you should be easy going, and you shouldn't have to resort to putting ads here (unless, of course, you have horrible social skills, so selling your talent is next to impossible, but considering the kinds of people who work in this industry, those "horrible" social skills would have to be on the level of a rabid transsexual cave rat).

It doesn't sound like you're interested in your "original and unique" concept at all. It sounds like you just want to make models. There's nothing wrong with that. But you're in the wrong place for it. You don't go to a classic car show to discuss the new line of Ford trucks.

There are people who are genuinely passionate about games and the RPG genre. They want to see advancement. Maybe it's a subconscious desire to improve culture. Maybe it's because we're all batshit insane. They are willing to "work" for free and see good ideas come to light. I put work in quotes because it's not really work - it's pleasure.

If you put out a good game that you and the team are passionate about, maybe other people will like it. Maybe you'll get to make a sequel. Maybe you'll get some pay pal donations. Maybe you'll be able to raise some revenue from these donations to hire a semi-professional. Maybe the next game can have a price on it, and will sell. Maybe you'll become fucking Blizzard Entertainment after a decade.

There however is one thing you cannot dispute - the need for a design document (or, even better, a design wiki like cardtrick suggested). Unlike what you are probably thinking, this changes. Constantly. Making it a wiki means team members can easily change information as things go along. It provides a one-stop source for updates and project status, and gives newcomers and easy reference point.

There are two types of teams that make RPGs. One type is the big business, doing it because RPGs allow them to cram as much crap in as possible to try and appeal to the widest demographic - from everyone who likes to play dress up to those who like mashing buttons in sequence. The other type is the people who are passionate about the genre and want to see it advance. Bioware used to be the latter, and have evolved into the former. Bethesda was never the latter, but have evolved into the former.

There is one fact about art: If you wouldn't still be doing it without pay, you're not an artist.

Actually, it is a fantastic deal. A dedicated, skilled artist working for free on a project is an incredible boon. Do you have any idea how much a contractual artist charges per item for custom work? Few indies could afford more than a handful of pieces, nevermind the amount of items an RPG requires.

The problem is that we have not seen any sign of this. We have seen a four stiff models that look quite similar to each other. One of the main problems with indies (yes, not independents) is that they think they're shit is so great, that if they put it up online, someone is going to steal it. They won't accept any criticisms or feedback because it infringes on their "artistic vision." In short, they're a bunch of douchebags who spend all day commenting on deviant art about how great some furry tentacle rape drawing is colored.

Most of these fuckwads go around saying "oh, I'm such a great composer" and "I have a bijillion assests done!" They also have a tendency to blame others for their ideas not coming to surface. I'm not saying Mojo is one of them, but he sure is appearing to be. It's an easy trap to fall into.

If he settles down, displays some dedication and proves he can do more than talk he might be able to get something done. Until that point it's all forum hot air.

I don't dispute this fact. I, however, am not talking about "hiring associates" and withholding vital information about the project, chalking it up to the classic "trust me, I'll be great" mantra. I don't have a design doc, a design wiki, or anything beyond a few msword docs in a folder on my desktop. I don't claim to have any of these things, or have a substitute that's infinitely better (email? Come on. I didn't even store my comic ideas, while I was doing them, in emails). I'm not calling myself an independent then immediately reject all criticisms and ideas that people throw around.

There was some initial confusion to where people thought American Hare was an established thing, but now I think everyone agrees that it may or may not get made, but if anything else, it's a good pool of ideas in the great sea of RPGs.

Oh, and just for the record Mojo, American Hare's graphical style (if it indeed has one), is always up for debate. I just thought up a sprite world because that's what I'm familiar with.

If he has most of the character models with clothing/kit done then yes, he has 20% done. Character models are a huge chunk of the game art requirements, they take far longer than buildings and other assorted inorganic/static props.

I could say I have 20% of the game assests done for American Hare. I think my ability to exaggerate and lie successfully is not in dispute around these parts. Imagine the American Hare thread didn't exist, and instead I posted a thread with two of the dialog progressions, along with some general information about the class structure and conversation implementations. Would you not agree that I could say, and get a good amount of people to believe, that I had 40% of the assests done? When, in fact, I was at the same level I am with it now.

No, the classic T pose is the root state of most models. So, if you place them in an engine without playing an animation thread (which is dependant on knowing the engine) they will "rest" naturally in the T pose.

Look in this thread, notice how all the clothing models are in the T-Pose? Oscar is only showing off parts of the model. OH NO, AOD HAS NO ANIMATIONS!!!

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=63.0

You're missing one vital piece of information, my sly nude fox. AOD has previously posted tons of animations, along with town layouts, concept art, etc. We know there are animations because we've seen them before.

Plus, unlike Mojo's characters, they're not stiff as hell. Less polygons maybe, but much finer detail. His characters do look like stock characters, along with stock textures and smoothing set to max. I see no reason to believe that any of those four figures have skeletal systems, or indeed animations. In fact, they could very easily be passed by someone who had only a week's experience with blender.

Also, ignore the forum kids about being "arrogant", many have a strong urge to prove themselves so they treat it as a challenge. Chefes childish response to your polite declining of his offer is an example.

Give me a break. There was nothing polite about that.

Far better to sound competent and confident than hesitant and unsure. Saying "well, I don't think my art is too bad, what do you guys think, please give me self validation." is going to put me off. Treat it like a job interview, not a beggar knocking door to door. Sell yourself and if people are interested they can judge the quality of your work, contact you for further samples. Try to shrug off the aggressive troll kiddies, sadly, they litter the internet like landmines and they will just waste your time in pointless arguments.

There's a difference between confidence and arrogance. It's a fine line, but one that is easily recognizable. I admit I haven't really read much of what you've written, but for someone that has there own subforum here, I did not think you saw things in such a black and white perspective.

 

[Mojo]

The terrain generator for C4 wasn't really out there yet but it sounded terribly awesome. It used voxel technology for highly detailed terrain wich is in itself something very unusual and high quality.

I don't really have the time right now ( or the will for that matter) to write a design document and post a barrage of screenshots. I said I will do it,and I will it that in a few weeks, but I really don't feel inclined to go rushing into it just to proove someone trolling on me wrong. If anything, the more of my work I post the more WT2 is gonna have material to attack me, regardless of how good or bad it is.

Some of the questions/accusations made by WT2 are so redundant anyway... I already said the models were rigged and animated, but the custom skelleton they were using and the animations were purchased and owned by my partner and left with him. I also made it quite clear that I'm not an animation artist, though I can easely rigg models to posed and enveloped skelletons. Most of my character models were rigged.

I also said that archictecture was just leaving the design area when my project fell through. As I said before too, most of the "20%" I talk about ( wich isn't by the way, an exact number, just a near estimate) is, comprised of items, small props, props and (specially) characters. It might seem weird starting with those but it made a lot of sense in the time. Characters were the biggest challenge so I wanted to nail them first. There was no real sense working on the archicteture/scenery being that the terrain generator wasn't out and that we didn't know how to handle exteriors/interiors yet, so I took up items, weapons, small props and else while I was at the characters. It also made huge sense. This is the kind of thing that get's done fast and en masse.

The thing to really keep in mind is that my work and the work of my partner weren't intergrated yet. He used my animated models to test his pathfinding but that was it for integration. Until he went further along with his engine there was a lot of info left out in the open about it, so a lot of stuff was better left for later.

I have female base models but there was one particularity that made me hold on for a future version of C4 before making female models : C4 doesn't support soft shadows yet and making hair alphas is a huge undertaking ( not to mention it looks like crap, without shadows). Since I didn't want bald or hat wearing women I thought it was logic to do so and wait. I do however, have a female model in the engine wich I used to test the alphas. I will post screenshots of it later ( it's quite cool I think) but the alphas on her hair are really messed up in C4.

With that in mind, I don't think WT2 want's to see more of my "boxy bananatomic snail eared characters" and I don't think he will be impressed by models of weapons or small scene props and items.

NN : Thanks for the post and the encouraging words. It's nice to know that I'm not a complete stranger in a a completely strange land . I was beggining to think I actually wrote a load of senseless crap and came off as an immensely arrogant and pompous ass. I made a wrong choice of words here and there, where I was trying to show how commited I was and sell my work maybe. Some people really took it the wrong way...

I guess that's it, food for thought. I will get my models on sale, eventually start a new thread up to both the "Codex 75 page design document" standard and the "troll defense" rule of a thumb.

I realize it might take months before finding someone to work with, if that will even happen. I'm really interested in contributing to a project that interests me in the meanwhile, even though I'm not really rich on free time this semester because of college. Offers are welcome, and I will deffinately offer my work around if I see something that is cool and has potential.

Right now though, I would really just like this thread to die of abandon in a few days, it wasn't a pleasant experience

cheers

 

[Mojo]

Also, I don't know where the "He's a greedy bastard in it for the money" everyone is saying comes from. I worked hard for a year without a dime coming my way and I'm a greedy cunt? I don't see it. One of the theraton people saw some of my work and made me a formal offer to sell it on the soon to be opened, super secret C4 market store. I could really use the money and I saw no reason to decline. Specially not the fact that this project will hardly get off again ( and no, that doens't mean I'm giving up, it means I'm realistic).

I'm also aware of the way the codex is being that I always lurked here. I guess I should have expected what I got indeed :wink:

As for the rest "Chefe", you are really putting the cart before the horse. I was really passionate about my game idea and that's the sole reason why I worked hard on it, for over an year. You are also playing the troll if you still insist on claiming I don't have a design idea. There are pages and pages of stuff if i'm to organize it, setting ideas, quests, characters, settlements, dialogue and engine ideas, you name it. That was the pleasant part of the work, honestly, and the rest of the work was pleasant simply because of that.

I have no doubts I could get a paying job as a modeller/texturer on a small indie company, and I have no doubts that if I want to contribute part time for a project I will get it also. Not because I'm an arrogant cunt, but because my work is decent ( even for WT2 mighty high standards it seem) and because artists don't exactly rain in septemper when it comes t indie games, specially indie rpgs.

As I said though, being monkey modeller/texturer for an idea that isn't mine and wich I ha dno part in does not by a mile beats working on your own project. I know that first hand.

 

[Mojo]

Sorry about the double/triple posts ( I'm having roblems editing posts). Here are screenshots of one of my characters animated Chefe, just because i like you. Like I said though, these animations left with my associate.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/1877/5391jl7.jpg

http://img361.imageshack.us/img361/4743/539bd4.jpg

This is a very old screenshot of a test rigg I sent my associate I had lying around . There are some nitpickings on the shoulder rigging and elseqhere, but ignore it please

As for my models being "stock models", I will simply turn this the other way around and ask for proof on your part to support such accusations. Frankly, if you know anything on the subject you wouldn't be saying such things. My models might not look so good but they deffinately don't look like "stock". I made them with my own two hands and it shows, I'm sure of that.

 

[LCJr.]

You think this thread is bad? What do you think you'll be reading if you actually produce a game? Sure you'll have your fanboys like every other project out there. But you'll also have no shortage of people willing to question every design made or not made and picking at every flaw real or imaginary.

Oh I forgot to say I actually liked the texture work on those models.

 

[Mojo]

That's the reason why the game I was developing was aunnanounced you see :wink: . It's such a waste of time...responding to trolling and accusations that is. Also stressfull. Better just do it when you really have to.

But the real reason I want this thread to die for another one with a design document and screenshots to start is to stop the annoying "YOUR LIAR POST MOAR SCRRENIEZ SOW I CA SEY THEY SUCK" and " NO HUNMDREDZ PAGE DESIGN DOCUWMENT NO GAEM!" type posts. This shit is getting redundant. But all in all, I do like this thread, save for WT2 posts.

 

[Carrie Underwood]

Now we're getting somewhere. Like LCJr. said, you think this is bad? I thought we did a pretty good job of pushing people to the breaking point here, and if you can still continue on, maybe even with a little more insight, then all the better. For some real insane criticism, check out the the '05, '06 topics here on Oblivion. I would say check the Elder Scrolls forums during the same time period (for some of the craziest developer attacks I've ever seen), but I don't know if they keep a backlog of threads for that long.

Those two screens you posted above make the models look a helluva lot better. Still, not animated, but better. But even then, this is the RPGCodex, with an emphasis on the RPG part. This is the RPG design forum, the last bastion of hope for all those who previously dwelled in General RPG and want to discuss RPG topics. Where's sample dialog? Where's a description of the skill system? Where's the attack roll modifiers? Where's a description of the stealth system and NPC visibility of the PC?

Quit asking to close the thread. Face it, good discussions don't die in the RPG design forum. No matter how much they might embarass you. Just post your stuff in this thread, and update the first post if you feel the need to. It's already established.