Looking for associate(s) to develop an indie rpg game

[Flux_Capacitor]

75 page design document? Lol. There are two main types of development. The older method, where you plan out everything in advance and then carefully follow this huge pile of documentation, often called the waterfall method (one step completes and leads into the other in a flowing, linear "step" concept) and rapid or iterative development, where you work out some basics, build them, then iterate and flesh them out as you go along in ever tightening spirals.

A design document really isn't meant to the end all, be all of the project. Things inevitably change over the course of the project. Its just a common place where people can go if they have questions. If you believe it should be followed blindly, well thats just foolish.

Besides, the actual document was really only part of the reason why I asked. I was also interested in:

- Level of commitment - besides a couple models and forum posts, what indication do I really have that he's willing to see this project through? His word? I don't mean to be a pessimist, but I've seen to many projects crash and burn because of this.
- Getting up to speed - I don't know about you, but having an amorphous mass of emails thrown in my direction isn't really going to help me out a whole lot. I haven't seen these emails (I doubt you have, either), so I have absolutely no idea what format they're in, what information is included or not, etc. Having a well-written, well-formatted document will greatly increase the efficiency here. Also, what happens if other people are brought on to the project? Are you really willing to go through the effort of trying to explain all your emails, and filling in all the gaps, every single time?
- Writing ability - I understand that English isn't his native language (although his skills are certainly acceptable). However, if he's going to be doing a significant amount of writing on the project, I'd like to see an example of how he handles such a large piece of work. Anyone can be eloquent for a page or two, but after 30-40, a lot of people start breaking down.

The second method is becoming much more popular because it is easier to get a working prototype up, see what works and what doesn't, discard the crap and change details before you spend hours and hours on a flawed design.

So, you're saying you're the perfect programmer, and haven't ever spent hours and hours on a flawed implementation? Well, my hat's off to you, I suppose. That's certainly impressive.

I know that method can work. However, when your team is spread across the globe, its useful to have a single document anyone can go to if they need it. Otherwise, people may be wasting time, waiting for their teammates to get out of bed, or check their emails, or come back from vacation, so they can get their questions answered. Of course, if you're working alone, this isn't a problem.

Honestly, I can't blame the guy. Personally, this looks like a terrible deal.

Actually, it is a fantastic deal. A dedicated, skilled artist working for free on a project is an incredible boon. Do you have any idea how much a contractual artist charges per item for custom work? Few indies could afford more than a handful of pieces, nevermind the amount of items an RPG requires.

Well, I could use another programmer on my project. Tell, you what. You can work for me, for free, for about two years, maybe more. I may bail after a year, or perhaps after the project is done. Until that time, though, you'd damn well better do what I tell you to do.

I hate to be cynical, but really, two years (I'm estimating here) is a long time to do something like that. This is only for the first project. *Then* I get to put in a significant amount of control over the project. How do I know you're going to stick around once your project is finished? People want to see a return of investment. People burn out. Working that much for that long on the same thing takes a lot out of people. Its just a very difficult deal to see through to its full completion.

 

[Mojo]

Posting sample dialog/writing samples would be unethical and impractical ( Because I will wright it over, keeping the ideas). Unethical because it's the work of both me and my ex-partner. Most of the dialog is actually mine, but even those were proofread and modified by my associate who is a native english speaker.

There's a lot of no edited stuff, just e-mails I sent him with ideas, stuff I wrote to keep an ideas stored...I will post those later.

You really don't think starting a new thread with a proper design document is more...practical and organized? It's reasonable to assume with a new thread this one would get off.

 

[Flux_Capacitor]

I understand if you don't want, or can't, post parts of your writing. However, there's got to be some parts that you can post. You certainly don't need to post your entire design document, or even most of it. I have seen a few online, so that may give you some ideas.

It sounded like this project was going to be pretty heavy into dialogue, and that you had planned on writing most, if not all, of it. With that in mind, and if you're trying to recruit team members, its probably not good to scoff at the idea of needing to write some documentation. That makes you look, well, bad and unwilling to put forth the effort to complete all that dialogue. Fortunately, it sounds like you've become more open to the idea. It also sounds like you've got a lot of stuff in emails; for the sake of any future partners, it would probably help if they were edited, formalized, and formatted so there's some semblance of an outline of what you want and where you were planning on going.

 

[Mojo]

Honestly, I can't blame the guy. Personally, this looks like a terrible deal.

Actually, it is a fantastic deal. A dedicated, skilled artist working for free on a project is an incredible boon. Do you have any idea how much a contractual artist charges per item for custom work? Few indies could afford more than a handful of pieces, nevermind the amount of items an RPG requires.

Well, I could use another programmer on my project. Tell, you what. You can work for me, for free, for about two years, maybe more. I may bail after a year, or perhaps after the project is done. Until that time, though, you'd damn well better do what I tell you to do.


I hate to be cynical, but really, two years (I'm estimating here) is a long time to do something like that. This is only for the first project. *Then* I get to put in a significant amount of control over the project. How do I know you're going to stick around once your project is finished? People want to see a return of investment. People burn out. Working that much for that long on the same thing takes a lot out of people. Its just a very difficult deal to see through to its full completion.

You really should just read the thread before jumping to ignorant conclusions. Here's the deal wich I alreayd outlined several times :

* My partner would develop an engine wich both games would use. Save for slight gameplay changes, setting and story. Think of the several uses of the infinity engine as an example of what we had in mind

Now tell, me why this isn't practical? 70 % of his work is actually work he will put into his own game. By the time he got to make his game all the work would be in my turf. he would just mod the engine a little ( both games had similar gameplay and game style) and wory abouth content. Tell who was on top, the programmer whose main task was to make one game engine ( in practical terms, for his game), or the artist who was to singlehandedly make all the art for two games ( save for animations)?

He planned to make tools ( like modding tools) wich would make adding quests, dialog and all forms of content a breeze.

Plus like I said, we both got exactly what we wanted. I will not go into the reasons me and this programmer parted ways ( Basiccaly he lost his will and didn't have time to work much anymore. No more info needed) but it was deffinately not because the deal was bad. It had nothing to do with that.

 

[Hory]

Mojo, you need to man up and take personal responsibility for this game if you want to have it produced. If you're attached to it then share your vision with potential recruits, not just the setting and expected soundtrack. That's one of the purposes of the design document, but such a document doesn't have to be particularly deep in the beginning. Apart from being a way to objectify your vision, it's also a sign of professionalism. I understand that you're looking for an equal-associate out of a sense of fairness, but good game development might require hierarchy, especially if you don't know/vibe with the people you're working with very well. Also, don't be so naive to think that your "associates" will never stop developing. Don't allow them to submit their work for the game under the idea that they can retroactively take the content away. I guess that's why it's helpful to have a game-studio entity that has the rights to the developers' contributions.

I haven't really developed a game, but the problems I see you go through are quite educational. I can tell you that it's usually a bad idea for small teams to develop their own 3D engine, and that's something I learned when I was about 17! I'm curious, how old are you?

 

[Mojo]

Here are more samples of my work I have lying around. Stuff more specific to this project I will post when I organize a design document.

One of the reasons why I don't have more than 20 % of the game assets done is that we changed settings mid-way. Originally my game was to be a futuristic noir setting rpg. After a few months though, we agreed that this concept was much harder to work with than another idea I had lying around ( the "radioactive western") so we put it in the cooler. That was at the beggining of this year, and even though I re-used much of my work from there ( pipeline, base models, etc) I guess the affirmation I had of working for over an year on the radioactive western rpg is not accurate. More like working on it a little over 6 months and working *on a game* more than a year. Anyway :

These are some portrait ideas I had. The technique I used is a mix of both photoshop painting and rendering .

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/3002/539bump16fg4.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6482/539bump10ry2.jpg

http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/131/539bump22hx6.jpg


This is the render of a character from that setting I did to play with lightning settings. the idea was that, being this a noir game, it would be pretty dark looking :

http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5331/539normal2cm9.jpg

This is an old Zbrush sculpture/low poly normal map test transition :

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/8559/539bump3lq5.jpg

This was an old test on the camera we had in mind. It was to be isometric, but not fixed and with a lot of movement ( rotation, zoom in and out). Obviously, ignore the placeholder interface, upside down portrait and static character :

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1055/539bump4kc8.jpg

 

[Mojo]

Hory I already expressed that I intend to eventually post a design document. You should read the thread before posting.

As for legal matters, it's quite more complicated than you think.

 

[Hory]

I know what you expressed. I was actually saying that contrary to what others have said here, you don't have to post a real design document. But you have to express your vision.

Legal matters are always complicated, but if the devs understand that the "game's rights" to use submitted content/code is not alienable, I doubt that any will sue, and you'll get to keep it without feeling remorse.

 

[sportforredneck]

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/6482/539bump10ry2.jpg

Holy shit. Nazis!

 

[Mojo]

I'm actually still negotiating with my ex-partner regarding the custom skelleton the romanian company did for us. He made it quite clear that he wants to keep the animations, and I didn't object, being that he paid for them, but the custom skelleton and the rigg we got is something he won't be able to use ever again. Everything was done with biped, so he can quickly and easely transfer the animations to any rigg as long as it uses a biped skelleton, but the rigg/custom skelleton is impossible to recycle.

Unless off course, he put's whoever works with him on the future under terrible stress, having to position any character model and scale it exactly as my base characters. Also, he might not use the "Custom" aspect of the skelleton, wich are a few extra bones for movement of trench coats/capes/dresses. I'm trying to convince him to make an exchange, rights to that to that rigg are given to me and I provide him with my base body models/shapes/positions wich will give anyone that works with him when and if he get's back into game development an easier time. I'm sure he will agree eventually .

As for legal matters, the best you can praticcaly get is a gentlemen's agreement and a contract before the game is released. Nobody is ever in the mood of spending money and time with lawyers over something so uncertain as an indie game... hell, I had been working with my ex associate for over 2 years and we were both reluctant to do it before it was really necessary.

 

[Carrie Underwood]

You keep mentioning your partner. That's all in the past. What matters is what you have and are capable of right now.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

The one piece of constructive advice I'll give you is that you should draft a contract, even a very basic one, at the outset, not at the end. You can always amend it later if need be, but you can never go back in time and resolve issues before they became contentious. You don't need a lawyer, and if you want a legalish document you can always find stock contracts to work off of.

Back to regularly scheduled tone: great ears on those portraits, pro.

 

[Mojo]

What matters is what you have and are capable of right now.

And that's very clearly outlined isn't it?

As for you WT2, I want your clear definition of "professional". I also want to know the standard you use to judge and criticize my work. I'm one person making all the art for a game.I don't work full time. I have 2 years limited experience.

Are you comparing my work to what a dozen professionals with 10 years of experience, the best software, and the best resources can do with all the time in the world in their hands? because that's stupid, even for you. Be practical, and be reasonable. remember we are talking about indie games here. indie rpgs specificcaly.

And off course, I would like to know what's the background to all your knowledge. You certainly must be a hell of a cg artist able to do blow me off my feet with your work right? Samples please?Are you a "professional" of the games industry with a lot of direct appreciation for all the tools of the trade?

For someone so fast to call other's hard work shit and claim complete knowledge of graphics and game development, you are one clueless motherfucker WT2.

 

[Mojo]

I can tell you that it's usually a bad idea for small teams to develop their own 3D engine, and that's something I learned when I was about 17! I'm curious, how old are you?

I'm 22 years old. We used the C4 graphics engine ( something wich you would know if you read the thread). My partner was developing a rpg game engine into it, wich we would use for two games.

 

[Kingston]

What matters is what you have and are capable of right now.

And that's very clearly outlined isn't it?

As for you WT2, I want your clear definition of "professional". I also want to know the standard you use to judge and criticize my work. I'm one person making all the art for a game.I don't work full time. I have 2 years limited experience.

Are you comparing my work to what a dozen professionals with 10 years of experience, the best software, and the best resources can do with all the time in the world in their hands? because that's stupid, even for you. Be practical, and be reasonable. remember we are talking about indie games here. indie rpgs specificcaly.

And off course, I would like to know what's the background to all your knowledge. You certainly must be a hell of a cg artist able to do blow me off my feet with your work right? Samples please?Are you a "professional" of the games industry with a lot of direct appreciation for all the tools of the trade?

For someone so fast to call other's hard work shit and claim complete knowledge of graphics and game development, you are one clueless motherfucker WT2.

Oh "BAAWWWW". You're the one who came across as an expert modeller, surpassing Bethesda and who have you. "Are you qualified enough to judge my work" is also a nice touch.

Bitch less, please.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

I haven't made any such claims. You said that your were an excellent character modeller and that character modelling was so difficult that professional companies like Bethesda couldn't do it. You were the one suggesting that your work outclassed theirs. It doesn't. Period. You have conceded you can't do hair, you plainly can't do ears, given that every character is wearing gloves, and given what you'e said, you probably can't do hands, either. Your facial structures are dubious. We can't judge the anatomy on your characters because they're all clothed. These things are the usual "tells" -- to using a gambling metaphor -- of an amateur, rather than professional, artist.

You can't rig your models -- you had to outsource that. You can't animate your models -- you had to outsource that, too. While modelling is challenging, rigging and animation is perhaps more important and more difficult. Given that it was your associate who financed the outsourcing last time, I'm curious how you -- who have promised to provide the art for this arrangement -- intend to get it done this time. In any event, we don't know how well your models perform when animated. You have shown us one sample, which is helpful, but it doesn't say much. Modellers who haven't work much with animators and don't understand rigging often create models that sheer or deform in odd ways.

One doesn't have to be an artist to know when ears are screwed up, or that animating is hard and time consuming, any more than one has to be an NBA star to know that a player has missed a basket, or that a full-court press requires speed and stamina. Even a casual observer gets that.

The fact that you, as an allegedly experienced artist, can't bring to bear even basic criticism to your own work suggests either an inflated view of your art or an ignorance of artistic fundamentals (like anatomy). I can't teach you those things, and I wouldn't take the time to do so if I could. But you need to critically reflect and decide whether you really know everything there is to know; and if not, learn to take criticism.

 

[Mojo]

I said Bethesda character art is bad. I never said I'm better than anyone or that my art is better than any art, save for the fact that the tech on my work is better than most indie rpgs out there. Can a text based game with 2d illustration be better artistically than a full 3d game using a last gen engine? yes. Technically better? harder to make? probbaly not.

As for Oblivion, for christ's sake, anything *procedurally generated* is bad. It's fucking lazy to put facegen into a game. Anyone can do it. Tell me emperor Uriel Septim isn't ridiculous. Come on tell me. I beg you .

Arrogance? you are putting words in my mouth. You are trolling. I'm not arrogant.

And yes, I can rigg ( and everything else, hair, hands, ears, etc). You are just saying I can't for some reason, but I don't care.

 

[cardtrick]

Tell me emperor Uriel Septim isn't ridiculous.

Sure, he's not great. I'd be the last to claim Oblivion has great character art. But, honestly . . . I think his face has better texturing and fewer flaws than yours. Septim looks like an ugly old man, but at least he looks human (bloom aside). Your dude looks a bit too plastic (probably fault of the rendering, more than your textures, although if you're using a spec map I think you want to change it) and the ears are awful. They don't even look attached to the head. There are good things -- the work around the eyes and nose (the eyes themselves are too small and too dull) is very good, and the clothing is actually great. But you need to learn to take criticisms. Seriously, those ears are just so glaringly bad that they distract from everything you do well.

EDIT:
And you need to take a closer look at the general shape of your facial models. Some good artists I've spoken with -- both 3d artists and traditional ones -- say that what helped them most to learn to make human heads was practicing by modeling/painting/sketching human skulls. All the facial features are distracting when you look at reference photos of people, but all of that skin is just a thin layer over the skull. You've got a pretty good handle on the eye sockets, which is good, but the overall shape of your heads doesn't match a human skull. Human heads are much more egg-shaped ovoids, whereas your heads are basically rectangles with a pointy bit on the bottom, like:

.--------.
| . . . . |
| . . . . |
| . . . . |
. \ __ / .

 

[WanderingThrough2]

And yes, I can rigg ( and everything else, hair, hands, ears, etc).

Show us one model with something even faintly resembling human ears. I mean he -- http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/8504/scavenger1lq4.jpg -- looks like he has snails on his head, and he -- http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/131/539bump22hx6.jpg -- looks like he has gravy boats.

(For the record, by the way, Septimus really is awful -- I'd never played Oblivion and had somehow not seen that screenshot. He looks more like a ninja turtle than a human being!)

 

[Mojo]

That character wasn't mean to be realistic.It's quite cartoony and stylized. I actually quite dislike that kind of comparison ( nowadays "real" is the shebang of graphics, wich is wrong). I don't mind your opinion though.

As for WT2, I just found out through private messages with him that he is a big time game developer/writer/quest designer with years of experience and a lot of success on the field ( unfortunatelly he didn't feel like proving that, even though he questions other people some much). He has a 6 figure salary and pities me.I thought someone might be interested in that.

 

[cardtrick]

Heh. If the Codex didn't have a long and time-honored tradition of publicly posting private messages for humiliation purposes, I'd say that posting that made you sound like more of a jerk. Since we do, good on ya.

As for stylized . . . if your point with that is about the "plastic" look, then fine -- I can see how that could be considered a stylization. But as for the shape of the head and the structure of the ears, that doesn't look like stylization, it looks like flaws in your modeling that you need someone (or rather, a whole thread full of people) to point out to you so that you can improve.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

What cunning sleuth! I've been outfoxed! He also got me to give up the override codes to the Triskellion, the sonuvagun!

BTW, we were waiting for the "not realistic" card to be played. Next you can tell us that you were just "screwing around" when describing your setting and it's actually "much cooler than what I said." (Which might explain why everyone in the 1930s is wearing 1860s hatwear . . . .)

 

[Hory]

Septim looks like an ugly old man

He looks like a genetically malformed kid of unknown gender to me.

 

[Mojo]

This is a practice sculp I did a few days ago( not finished). I think the ears are quite nice ( as for the ears on the smoking character, they are prostethics).

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/2816/01ws2.jpg

Honestly though, If I wanted to discuss stetics, anatomy and technique I would simply post my work on a modelling forum. I wonder if WT2 wants to know if I can model penises and vaginas now.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

as for the ears on the smoking character, they are prostethics