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KickStarter Lords of Xulima

roshan

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2004
Messages
2,499
The best moment so far was when my party got gud enough to clear that fucking mushroom field north of Velegarn. My main pet peeve is how detecting traps works. Having to move around gets annoying fast. Even with having spent a point on Perception during every level up of my Rogue I walk face first into traps a lot of the time.

Is it long-term viable for front line characters to specialize in two weapon classes? I found a really nice sword but my guys are currently all using axes/maces.

It's not unviable so much as wasteful, as you are investing in another skill you will not really use. Not only that, they synergize with different skills. For swords, it's not just important to pump the sword skill, but also the bloody strike skill. Axes synergize with wounding strike, and maces with stunning strike. So that's lots of skillpoints down the drain. You're better off spending those points getting more passive stuff like tactics, fast reflexes or weapons master.

Oh, and the game doesn't have any unique weapons, so eventually you will find an axe or mace that is at the same "tier" as the sword you found. Sometimes due to luck you can find weapons that are at a significantly higher tier than what you can find elsewhere, but eventually you will find better stuff.

Swords by themselves are nice weapons though, if you have a couple of sword wielders and a rogue with shurikens, you can really stack up extreme bleed damage. But stacking wounds or stun is almost as effective but it's the synergy with shurikens that made me focus on bleeding enemies.
 

Cadmus

Arcane
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Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,280
The best moment so far was when my party got gud enough to clear that fucking mushroom field north of Velegarn. My main pet peeve is how detecting traps works. Having to move around gets annoying fast. Even with having spent a point on Perception during every level up of my Rogue I walk face first into traps a lot of the time.

Is it long-term viable for front line characters to specialize in two weapon classes? I found a really nice sword but my guys are currently all using axes/maces.
I got 10 axe and 10 sword on Gaulen because earlier I wanted Axe then I found bleed was cool so I learned Swords and now the sword-bleed is already pretty weak so I don't know what to do:))

I cleared the fucking mothercocksucking cuntface mushrooms yesterday, too.
 

T. Reich

Arcane
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Is it long-term viable for front line characters to specialize in two weapon classes? I found a really nice sword but my guys are currently all using axes/maces.

Not viable at all, unless the class in question is Soldier. It's about the only frontliner-capable class that will actually have spare SPs to waste on whatever be the end of the game. Plus, it helps that his weapon skills only cost 1 SP to improve.

Everybody else you must specialise in one weapon type from the get-go, or you will suffer in endgame.

Anyway, different (melee) type weapons hardly differ in damage capability given the same quality tier. In the end, the best sword would be about as strong as the best mace or axe. Daggers, staves and bows are different in this regard, but they nake up for it (somewhat) in other ways.
 

Snorkack

Arcane
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Is it long-term viable for front line characters to specialize in two weapon classes? I found a really nice sword but my guys are currently all using axes/maces.
Your question implies that swords are viable in the first place, which they aren't (Well excpt arcane soldier). If you want bleed, throw shuriken and/or skill bleeding strike.
 

T. Reich

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Is it long-term viable for front line characters to specialize in two weapon classes? I found a really nice sword but my guys are currently all using axes/maces.
Your question implies that swords are viable in the first place, which they aren't (Well excpt arcane soldier). If you want bleed, throw shuriken and/or skill bleeding strike.

Filthy lies.

Thief + katana + quick strike = mahsive bleed, shurikens saved.
And if you happen to have 2x swords specialists in the party, they can bleed out the non-undead mobs in no time. Very powerful.

Bleed pro-tip: once you stacked enough bleed on a mob - leave them alone to bleed and concentrate your bleeding attacks elsewhere.
 

Snorkack

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Nope. wounding >= stunning > bleeding.
Only exception are hp-bloat bosses or monsters you aren't supposed to fight yet, where the tactic of choice is to stack enough DoT and try to keep at least one party member alive until the dot finishes the job. For example beholders, elder yotums, or if you want to tackle the ogre early. And in these rare cases shuriken and gaulens poison strike do the job pretty well.

you neglect the fact that while bleeding to death the enemies keep their full combat capabilities and still hit like a truck.
 

Lord Azlan

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Nope. wounding >= stunning > bleeding.
Only exception are hp-bloat bosses or monsters you aren't supposed to fight yet, where the tactic of choice is to stack enough DoT and try to keep at least one party member alive until the dot finishes the job. For example beholders, elder yotums, or if you want to tackle the ogre early. And in these rare cases shuriken and gaulens poison strike do the job pretty well.

you neglect the fact that while bleeding to death the enemies keep their full combat capabilities and still hit like a truck.

Interesting to read your views. I think you are right but did not use wounding much at all. At one point against small groups - stunning became the best tactic as by using the combat order on the right hand side as a guide - you could keep on whacking the next one up and ensure none of the enemies got a chance to get any attacks in at all. Although I admit I used that tactic a lot when my party was high level and with high speed. It was a tactic I never thought of using during my first play through though.

Bleeding damage was probably the most effective against high level enemies as it would stack as you say - and I bought and saved shurikens like a lunatic.

With wounds it was hard to tell how many it took to make a difference? I know you can see opponents miss more often but was there any other clue? On my first play though i used wounding against some key opponents but second time around I learned to avoid them and come back when I was stronger.
 

Cyberarmy

Love fool
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Divinity: Original Sin 2
I agree on wounding >= stunning > bleeding.
Even 10 wounds make a lot of difference (enemies start to miss and do less damage/status effect) and it is also easy to apply that many with an axe using soldier. Bleeding and poisoning is most effective when fighting against HP bloted enemies like Herals/Titans or for quickly eliminating low HP caster types but undead are immune.
 

Snorkack

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yes, the documentation of the game isn't that good existent, so telling what wounding does is rather obscure compared to the obvious stunning and bleeding results. My theory, which is based on pure assumption: Hit chances, damage and the success chance of spell effects are mainly derived from the level disparity between attacker and defender. Wounds seem to negatively affect the level you're bringing to the table while attacking, thus missing/miscasting more often and dealing less damage. With enough wounds, you just become incapable of hitting the enemy, and if you do, you deal almost zero damage.
The wound threshold where a combattant is basically useless scales throughout the game, of course.
 

Jaesun

Fabulous Ex-Moderator
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MCA Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech
Yeah sadly it wasn't until much later in the game did I discover wounding is VERY VERY good. Just wish I would have known that sooner. Still my Thief with a sword worked just fine for me.
 

Applypoison

Numantian Games
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Developer
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120
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Serpent in the Staglands Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
My theory, which is based on pure assumption: Hit chances, damage and the success chance of spell effects are mainly derived from the level disparity between attacker and defender.
It's derived from the total Attack value of a strike VS target Evasion and then Defense. The attack has to successfully roll To Hit, then the target Defense will factor in to reduce the damage and debuff stacks (Bleed/Stun/Wound) applied.

Wounds seem to negatively affect the level you're bringing to the table while attacking, thus missing/miscasting more often and dealing less damage. With enough wounds, you just become incapable of hitting the enemy, and if you do, you deal almost zero damage.
Wounds impact Action Modifier, which is basically Attack & Spell Success rolled in one. That part... might eventually be streamlined a bit (or explained better) ;)
 

T. Reich

Arcane
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Apr 15, 2013
Messages
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not even close
Nope. wounding >= stunning > bleeding.
Only exception are hp-bloat bosses or monsters you aren't supposed to fight yet, where the tactic of choice is to stack enough DoT and try to keep at least one party member alive until the dot finishes the job. For example beholders, elder yotums, or if you want to tackle the ogre early. And in these rare cases shuriken and gaulens poison strike do the job pretty well.

you neglect the fact that while bleeding to death the enemies keep their full combat capabilities and still hit like a truck.

Here's my take: wounding = stunning = bleeding. And you, in fact, want to have all of those available at any given moment. Because I've tried all of them so I know what I'm talking about.
vs. Trash mobs / Avegage mobs / Boss-tier​
Wounding = unnecessary / useful / very useful
Stunning = useful / very useful / usually too weak
Bleeding = very useful / useful / very useful
Any 2 (or all 3) together = OP / OP / OP

There is no significant difference between a mob having 10 and 20 wounds, unless the mob in question is boss-tier (then you want as many wounds on them as possible). If your frontliners' defence is decent, a mob with 10 wounds on it will already have a very hard time hitting them. 10 wounds is roughly 3 attacks with a wounding weapon, or 1-2 attacks with wounding strike. Weak trash mobs are already too weak, so wounding is unnecessary.

Stunning works best versus mod-tier mobs since those you can both stun well and will benefit most from delaying. Versus the strongest mobs stun is usually least useful because their resists are too high. But if it works, then it's super-useful.

Bleeding is always good. Versus weak mobs you can quickly spread it around, reducing the tedium of trash fights. Versus super strong mobs that aren't immune to bleed, it's extremely useful since it works better the longer it stays on the mob (and the fact that you will have hard time hitting the bosses, while the bleed stays on and does its dirty work). It's "only" ok versus evenly-matched mobs since I know that those can still hit you while they bleed to death. Except they still die faster and that means that they hit you less in the long term.

And evenly-matched enemies don't hit like a truck unless you fucked up in the defense departament. And if your defense is good, and they still hit like a truck, well then they aren't exactly evenly-matched, are they?

yes, the documentation of the game isn't that good existent, so telling what wounding does is rather obscure compared to the obvious stunning and bleeding results. My theory, which is based on pure assumption: Hit chances, damage and the success chance of spell effects are mainly derived from the level disparity between attacker and defender. Wounds seem to negatively affect the level you're bringing to the table while attacking, thus missing/miscasting more often and dealing less damage. With enough wounds, you just become incapable of hitting the enemy, and if you do, you deal almost zero damage.
The wound threshold where a combattant is basically useless scales throughout the game, of course.

Applypoison already gave the good explanation of how things work. Additionally, if you mouseover the wounds icon on the char, it shows the exact modifiers. And from there you can see that wounding a lot effectively shuts down an enemy (in time, you still need a few attacks to stack those wounds).
 

Snorkack

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That is nice and all, and I don't want to argue that bleeding is bad per se.
It's just that swords and daggers apply such a petty amount of bleed. It's like, maybe 1/10 - 1/5 the value of a regular attack. So you would need to hit 5 times to basically get another free hit per turn while taking damage from the enemy. Two hits from a good barbarian's axe on the other hand apply 15-20 wounds and the enemy is basically a non-factor for the remainder of the battle.
As for the trash encounters... I'd rather build my party around the tough battles and resource conservation, not the easy but tedious ones. For the fights in which bleeding is really superior (which is like <5%) shuriken, bleeding strike, poison and maybe the arcane soldier special attacks are far more effective.
You could say my point is that swords... JUST DON'T CUT IT B) B) B)
 

Anthedon

Arcane
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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I'm in the Rasmura/Devonia region now, my guys are level ~21. And a lot of encounters kick my ass. Guess I'll have to go back and clear some zones of random enemies that still give decent XP.
 

Suicidal

Arcane
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
2,317
For me it was wounding > bleeding > stunning.

Wounds were OP against any big enemy that could not remove them and bleeding was OP against just about anything because you could just stack it to 250 and then heal and laugh.

Stunning I didn't find too useful because in the late game everything is too resistant to it, like a 8 stun power attack would only stun enemies for like 1 second, which is pretty negligible. Not saying it was completely useless - actually it was reasonably helpful, just not much compared to wounds and bleeding.
 

ben_reck

Educated
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Nov 4, 2013
Messages
84
Look at the numbering in the init panel on the right, each increment of one would be a second.

I've played this a bunch the past few days and had a bunch of fun. I guess I have a couple of concerns:

Should I play on the hardest difficulty rather than veteran? I'm at 11-12 with the first temple cleared (clearing the shrooms after having been blessed made my party). I can see things being a little mindless going forward.

But will the hardest level force me to make better decisions or just take a lot more time? That's the concern. Thanks.
 

Cadmus

Arcane
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Dec 28, 2013
Messages
4,280
Look at the numbering in the init panel on the right, each increment of one would be a second.

I've played this a bunch the past few days and had a bunch of fun. I guess I have a couple of concerns:

Should I play on the hardest difficulty rather than veteran? I'm at 11-12 with the first temple cleared (clearing the shrooms after having been blessed made my party). I can see things being a little mindless going forward.

But will the hardest level force me to make better decisions or just take a lot more time? That's the concern. Thanks.
I'm around lvl 25 or something in the swamps and it's still pretty difficult and you gotta pay attention in almost every fight. It also gets really tedious because of that, there's tons of fights everywhere. It's totally up to you.

I can't remember what difficulty I'm playing at but I think it's the highest one.
 

Anthedon

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
For me it was wounding > bleeding > stunning.

Wounds were OP against any big enemy that could not remove them and bleeding was OP against just about anything because you could just stack it to 250 and then heal and laugh.

Stunning I didn't find too useful because in the late game everything is too resistant to it, like a 8 stun power attack would only stun enemies for like 1 second, which is pretty negligible. Not saying it was completely useless - actually it was reasonably helpful, just not much compared to wounds and bleeding.

Stunning is no longer very helpful where I'm at now (level ~23, swamp area). Most enemies seem to have pretty high resistance to wounds too though. I never get more than two applied with the same attack. Whereas DOTs still stack just fine (bleed, poison, burn).
 

old numbers

Literate
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May 1, 2015
Messages
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It's all about wounding for me, stunning stopped being so useful after a few levels and bleeds are taken care of for the most part by shurikens and flame dots from fire attacks. And there's Gaulen's venomous strike too.
 

ben_reck

Educated
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Nov 4, 2013
Messages
84
I'm around lvl 25 or something in the swamps and it's still pretty difficult and you gotta pay attention in almost every fight. It also gets really tedious because of that, there's tons of fights everywhere. It's totally up to you.

I can't remember what difficulty I'm playing at but I think it's the highest one.

Well, that's the rub, right? Maximizing the challenge while minimizing the tedium. But I would think paying attention lessens the tedium; otherwise, it's just click click yawn.

I started another game on the highest level to test the waters. I couldn't accept the "only save while in town" incentive b/c I need the convenience of quicksaves.
 

T. Reich

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I have no idea how the game counts the time. What's 1 second?
The default movement speed (at 100% movement ratio, which will be lower on harsher surfaces and 200% on the roads) is basically "1 step = 1 minute". The game doesn't count seconds.

Should I play on the hardest difficulty rather than veteran? I'm at 11-12 with the first temple cleared (clearing the shrooms after having been blessed made my party). I can see things being a little mindless going forward.
But will the hardest level force me to make better decisions or just take a lot more time? That's the concern. Thanks.

I haven't palyed on the hardest difficulty, but as far as I understood, it requires quite a good knowledge of the game mechanics and a certain degree of min-maxing, because it's very unforgiving to player mistakes.
Also, the food management aspect is more pronounced, such as harsher environment locations will really tax your food supplies.
 

ghostdog

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I don't know what you guys are talking about. Stun+high speed is OP. OK, speed is OP by itself, the best stat in the game, but add stun to it and the enemy doesn't even get a chance to hit you. I mean I only had one dedicated stunner in my party, a soldier, and all I had to do was increase speed and strength. The mage helped also a bit with his lightning stunning, but it can't be compared to the stun from the mace. Sure, shuriken bleeding and poison ended the fights much faster and yeah, wounds helped a lot in that regard too, but not getting hit back is a big plus imo. By the point I tackled the last of the titans they barely had a chance to perform an action against me.
 

T. Reich

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not even close
I don't know what you guys are talking about. Stun+high speed is OP. OK, speed is OP by itself, the best stat in the game, but add stun to it and the enemy doesn't even get a chance to hit you. I mean I only had one dedicated stunner in my party, a soldier, and all I had to do was increase speed and strength. The mage helped also a bit with his lightning stunning, but it can't be compared to the stun from the mace. Sure, shuriken bleeding and poison ended the fights much faster and yeah, wounds helped a lot in that regard too, but not getting hit back is a big plus imo. By the point I tackled the last of the titans they barely had a chance to perform an action against me.

I come to wonder if people who complain about the weakness of any status effect (that I argue are relatively well-balanced against each other) use 1h weapons with shields.
Because 1h+shield combo in LoX is absolutely, 100%-proof much worse than using a 2h weapon.
2h weapons deal much more damage (and status effects) than their 1h variants, and the shield provides extra armor at the cost of extra weight at the same ratio as other armor pieces, so it can be safely discarded in favour of heavier (and better-protecting) armor to compensate.
The only shield-using characters I had in my party had been spellcasters with no weapon in hand. I gave them the lightest shields with stat boosts I could find (in the endgame those were something like 5 weight with "King's" enchantment. Good stuff.).
 

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