Game News LOTR: The White Council announced

[Naked_Lunch]

It would be great to have a nice open RPG in Middle Earth.

TOME

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

It would be great to have a nice open RPG in Middle Earth.

TOME

Please keep rguelikes far, far away from me.

 

[LlamaGod]

What do they take fromthe movies?

The hype, duh.

also probably the fucked up and retarded appearances of everything. Balrogs with wings, ahoy.

 

[glasnost]

and the perpetuation of annoyances like pointy-eared, beardless elves.

The differences between humans and elves are metaphysical, you bastards!

 

[sheek]

Yeah... although Tolkien didn't exactly do much to discourage that belief after LOTR.

He should have stuck to calling them the Eldar. Everything about elves in modern culture is an abomination. It's a massive vector of faggotry contaminating sci-fi.

 

[kingcomrade]

Afternoon elves!

@glasnost and sheek
Actually, what do you guys mean? What were elves supposed to be? I always thought they were originally fairies.

 

[sheek]

'Elves' (they're not called elves) in the Silmarillion were very similar to humans and there's no mention about the 'traditional' elf stereotype physiques or psychology. The only real difference was that they lived a lot longer and had superhuman abilities (intelligence, combat etc).

They had nothing to do with the weak, secretive, poetry-reciting, spell-casting, bow shooting forest elves you see in D&D.

Another interesting thing: in the early versions of the Silmarillion dwarfs were an evil race.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Who here played The Third Age? EA's last LOTR "rpg"

That was baaaad, really, really bad.

 

[obediah]

Who here played The Third Age? EA's last LOTR "rpg"

That was baaaad, really, really bad.

Was that the one where they took a FF game, and replaced the meager amount of fun it had with movie clips?

 

[LlamaGod]

Who here played The Third Age? EA's last LOTR "rpg"

That was baaaad, really, really bad.

Was that the one where they took a FF game, and replaced the meager amount of fun it had with movie clips?

FF has something besides movie clips?

 

[ad hominem]

Those in this thread arguing about the various qualities of elves have truly achieved a level of geekdom that I can never hope to ascribe to. I bow to you.

Now get out in the sun!!

 

[psycojester]

Said the man with over 200 posts on an RPG forum

 

[glasnost]

Yeah... although Tolkien didn't exactly do much to discourage that belief after LOTR.

Well, he did get into some of it in his letters.

And there's the glaring description of Cirdan in the last chapter of LotR: "...Very tall he was, and his beard was long...". which is a pretty blatant refutation of some people's concept of 'elvish physiology', at least as far as it goes in Tolkien's work.

@glasnost and sheek
Actually, what do you guys mean? What were elves supposed to be? I always thought they were originally fairies.

Well, the idea of them grew over time, like the rest of it. When Tolkien first wrote about elves in poems and whatever, they were kinda pixie-ish even. He'd later explicitly reject that kinda thing. The problem is not so much the idea of elves as 'fairies' but rather the narrowing down of the concept of 'fairy' itself into something playful and benign, rather than something perilous, mystical.

Elves are more to be understood as a people who differ from Men in that their 'essential' being still possesses an innate, transcendental character, or at least that this transcendental aspect is functional in them in way that it is not functional for all, or at least most, Men. Elves are aware of the higher orders of beings, the realities beyond 'middle earth' (the physical universe): The One, the Ainur, etc. They are born intuitively cognizant of these things through some 'spiritual capacity' that for whatever reason is stillborn in Man. This gives Elves an awareness and ability that Men do not possess. For example, the elves can perceive 'the invisbile', things like the Nazgul unclothed on one end, or on the other, the interior spiritual state of others around them, like in the way Galadriel is able to 'read' the members of the Fellowship. This is not about hunches and worldly wisdom--it's a real ability and mode of perception that they possess. Things like the rings of power can be seen as enhancers or foci for abilities that are innate to Elves, not as granters of a new 'magical' power.

This visionary connection to the 'Immaterial Real' also has consequences for their physical bodies. They're made of sterner, subtler stuff. Their awareness grants them a high degree of control over their physicality. They don't get sick, they don't age much, their will dominates their passions, and not the other way around. The ultimate power of this 'subtle body' of theirs is the ability for it to transcend beyond the material realm altogether, which is what Elves do when they sail out of the Gray Havens. 'The Blessed Realm' is found on no map, and can be reached by no strictly material boat and pilot. But it's a Real place, and can be reached only by the 'spiritual' pilot who knows how to navigate through the invisible (to strictly material perception) paths that lead there. It's not so much that Men are 'forbidden' from visiting or subsisting in Valinor, Tol Eressea, etc., it's that they can't. They don't have the perception, or the ability. They don't have the subtle body that can withstand the 'disconnection' from the physically real to the spiritiualy real. Both are equally 'Real', but one is of a higher order.

It's true that not all elves transcend like this, or have the visionary capacity as described above. The ones best at it are the 'High Elves', the three clans who were taken under wing by the Valar (who are Ainur: lesser divines, angelic powers), and brought directly to Valinor early on in the history of the world. Once there, they were 'initiated' into full knowledge of the world around them, they were made totally aware of the capacity within themselves to 'see beyond the senses', because they were instructed by beings who were a part of it. This also meant they had the greatest deal of 'control' over their physical bodies. So they have a huge advantage over their 'dark', unenlightened cousins. But it's true that even these have the capacity to be a part of it, and when summons is made for all Elves to leave middle earth or be left to wither, they are able to participate. Failure to participate can be seen not as some sort of disobediance to some Divine Will, but as a denial of their own spiritual character. By not transcending to Valinor, their Real 'spiritual' home, they deny the reality of transcendence. This reduces them to their physical nature alone, with the consequence that they wither and die, 'fading away'. This is 'the fall of elves'. It happens on an individual level, not a racial one. Sometimes large groups fell at once, like Feanor and many of the Noldor's exile from Valinor in the Silmarillion, but they fell as individuals (like Feanor and his sons), and some later reawakened as individuals (like Galadriel).

It's true that elves are thought of as close to the earth, tied to it even, but they do not see the earth as just dirt and rocks. They perceive the underlying spiritual character to everything around them. This is not allegorical, it is the nature of how things are. They recognize the activities of the Valar, which are veiled to most mortals as simply water and wind, but to the fully developed suprasensory capacity of the elves they are the Divine interacting with the world. This is what 'symbols' are. Real things, but with a deeper character than the purely external. 'High Elves' are conscious of symbolic reality, they see Ulmo lurking in the rainclouds of a thunderstorm (which is what he's doing), while their less enlightened brothers (and the humans like them) see only common weather patterns or the the allegorical wrath of god in a lightning strike. They don't see the whole picture; their ability is lacking.

Elves don't lack it; that's what an elf is. Being 'one with the earth' should probably be interpreted as being 'fully aware and a part of all earths, sensory and suprasensory, material and physical.

Elvish theology:

To truly exist, you must recognize that reality is broader than the senses and materiality, which are in fact the least 'real' aspects of 'The Real'. The One, the source and sustainer of All that Is, is also the most invisible and inaccessable, utterly aloof and transcendent. Contrast Melkor/Morgoth, who began as one purely spiritual, but as his corruption and rage spiraled out of control he became more and more 'incarnate', existing and acknowledging only the physical, finally becoming constrained to the physical alone and suffering the consequence: death by a sword.

Next, humans have to be put into the picture. For whatever reason, humans do not possess the visionary capacity that the elves do. At least, it is not functioning in them. By extension, they do not have the control of their bodies that elves do. Their passions dominate their wills. They do not see beyond the senses, they do not subsist in realms beyond the material. They are cut off from Valinor, they couldn't find it even if they spent their lifetimes looking. If by some chance they were brought there, the experience would likely destroy them.

The active spiritual capacity, visionary perception and the subtle body it confers still exist in potential for Men as individuals. But it takes tremendous effort. It's not something common to all, not a 'racial trait' like it is for the Elves. Elves are born as transcendental beings. Humans are born as material beings who must fight for their transcendence.

Tolkien wrote several stories about sailors finding their way to places off all maps, lands where there should be no land. In these stories, the water changed to something more ethereal, and the air thinned out. They couldn't breathe. Eventually only one of them was able to maintain consciousness, and was able to actually make contact with the inhabitants of the lands he had discovered. But he couldn't stay long. This should probably be understood in the sense that he was a man of the sort that was more 'spiritually alive' than his crewmates. Elflike. Tolkein gave him the name Aelfwine, elf-friend, acknowledging in part his similitude to the elves.

The Numenorians also seem to have abilities and control similar to the elves. It's because they were taken in by the High Elves at the end of the the first great wars. Those elves were 'initiates' of the higher orders of reality by virtue of their instruction by the Valar, so they were in turn able to initiate those Men who followed them into those realities, as much as possible for them. This is why men like Aragorn. Denethor, and Faramir, are what they are. They're subtle, perceptive of things beyond the reach of their fellow men, and it's due to their inheritence of the knowledge and practices of the Numenorians, who were in turn taught those things by the elves of Valinor. Even Frodo to some extent has these abilities towards the end of his life. It's probably due to his interaction with the ring, which would have focused whatever latent ability he had, and his companionship with Gandalf (an angelic entity whose influence would not have been small), various High Elves, and 'illumined' men like Aragorn. This is probably why he gets to go in the ship at the end of the story. His capacities have been activated to some degree, he can see a bit, and his body has consequently been made 'subtle' enough to survive in the 'world beyond the world', Valinor and its outliers. It's why Sam can't come. At least, not yet.

For whatever reason, not all humans have this capacity active. In many, if not most, it is so dormant as to seem nonexistant. For them, there are no higher orders of reality, there is only middle earth, the physical world. Even the idea of transcendance is incomprehensible to them, because they have no perception of anything to 'transcend to'. They are utterly unenlightened, totally bound to the physical world. And they die, quickly.

How this happened is an open question. There's the obvious idea of some sort of 'fall of man', but I don't think this can be seen as some sort of 'punishment for a crime', which is how 'The Fall' is understood in most western Christian conceptions of it. However, the idea of man somehow losing touch with the realms beyond the senses, and his subsequent lack of control of himself, the darkening of his spiritual nature and blindness to all beyond the physical, is very much a tragedy and a 'fall'. This is precisely how the 'fall of man' is understood in the circles of 'eastern Christianity' (and some circles within shi'ite islam), and I think this is also the way Tolkien would understand it in his own cosmology.

Again, how it happened is unknown. How it could be reversed on a large scale is also unknown. As of now, it's only individuals, or small groups, that are able to transcend their darkened capacity through education (initiation) and effort: the Aragorns, the Denethors, the Frodos, the Numenorians, etc. Tolkien never resolved it. Which makes sense, since I don't think any of us have resolved questions of this nature in the real world, either.


uh, conclusion:

So...elves and men. The differences are largely of a 'spiritual' sort. It's about interior states of being, and the external states which are caused by them. Most people, like dark elves and the easterling men, have no perception of the interior states, and instead go by the externals, which is probably why elves can get pretty hokey in contempory fantasy. But in Tolkien's cosmology, it's to be expected!


-----
Sorry for going on and on. All this represents my own thinking on the matter, but I will contend that none of this runs counter to what Tolkien as written about his universe, particularly in the Silmarillion, as revealed in both the original edition and the expanded 'Histories' of his son Christopher. I don't think it's complete BS either, but your mileage may very. Hopefully not!

also, I admit a lot of the terminology I used has been gathered from reading the writings of Henry Corbin (who wrote primarily about shi'ite islam), and to some extent John Romanides (who wrote about 'eastern orthodox' christianity). Their vocabulary is I think implicit all throughout Tolkien's cosmology. Even if he was unfamiliar with it in his lifetime, I don't think he would find it alien to hear his works expressed in these terms. Again, you might see it differently.

really, just go with what sheek said. It's equally accurate. and less pretentious.

 

[ad hominem]

Said the man with over 200 posts on an RPG forum

Could be worse, I guess. At least it's not an FPS forum...

 

[Drakron]

Yes or write huge blocks of text over Tolkien elves ... like how glasnost just did.

 

[LlamaGod]

knowing things is nerdy!

this is why kingcomrade is awesome, right?

 

[sheek]

Something else about the races of Middle Earth: each one has it's own advantage and disadvantage so in general kind of balance out.

The Eldar have:
+ superhuman abilities
+ long life and reincarnation

but
- 'weaken' the longer and further they are away from Valinor. The 'fade away' which is what happened by the time of LOTR. They're no longer a fighting force in the battle against Mordor although individual Eldar in the First Age could take out twenty orcs each.
- don't have free will. They are subject to the will of the Creator and everything they do unconsciously follows a plan (which is why the Silmarillion is a tragedy)

The humans have:
+ very short lives
+ average/weak bodies

but
- have the gift of 'free choice'. They can turn around History and cannot be predicted

Dwarfs:
+ I forget

Etc

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Good assay, glasnost.

 

[Bluebottle]

Touching Cloth

Just to illustrate the speed at which EA's hype machine moves there's already an interview over at CVG:
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=143077

What will make this game stand out from other RPGs?

Tyler Vaught: I think The White Council will have a lot of things that will stand out from the crowd. One of them is that all of our NPCs are Sims. They're not just current-gen Sims that you've seen in the past Sims games, they're built from the technology of the next generation of Sims games. I don't think there's anyone out there that can compete with what Maxis has developed over many, many years.

Somehow I can see Gandalf losing some of his mystical edge when you see him sporting a speech bubble informing you of his desperate need to take a dump.

 

[Nael]

Who cares if it's Tolkien? I'm just hoping you can add-on elf tits.

 

[MacBone]

Nice post, glasnost. It aptly illustrates the amount of work Tolkien did creating his world and its cosmology. I love it when games can let even a hint of this grandeur leak through, though it doesn't seem like The White Council will have much of that.

 

[bryce777]

Well, Aelfwine was actually part elven, as I recall.

As for physical differences, the elves started off much more mighty, but over time their inner fire burns and consumes their flesh making them less physically powerful.

 

[psycojester]

Nael you'll only be able to add elf-tits if your character has enough style points. Which will be gained for pulling off EXTREME Kung-fu moves in platemail

 

[kingcomrade]

this is why kingcomrade is awesome, right?

Huh?

@glasnost
That was actually pretty interesting. I've always liked the idea of Tolkien trying to create an "Anglo" set of mythos, I just never much got into it.

What I'd like someone to explain is how The Bad Guy in LotR got his massive armies. Was he just a really persuasive recruiter? "Hey, I'm the ultimate evil and we've got the greatest dental care plan this side of the Middle Earth."

 

[Mefi]

this is why kingcomrade is awesome, right?

Huh?

@glasnost
That was actually pretty interesting. I've always liked the idea of Tolkien trying to create an "Anglo" set of mythos, I just never much got into it.

What I'd like someone to explain is how The Bad Guy in LotR got his massive armies. Was he just a really persuasive recruiter? "Hey, I'm the ultimate evil and we've got the greatest dental care plan this side of the Middle Earth."

You know the Nazgul like the Witchking? Well, there's a few of them and all of them got themselves kingdoms - they were all kings and great warriors before they accepted the rings which totally bound them to Sauron's will in any case. Tolkien doesn't much mention what happens outside of the north-west of Middle Earth, but there are little glimpses of what's going on elsewhere on the continent. Mostly they revolve around how Sauron uses religion to corrupt nations into worshipping him.

 

[ad hominem]

Piggybacking on what Mefi said, if you go back to the Silmarillion, Melkor (predecessor to Sauron) created the original orcs by capturing elves and torturing them until they became an entirely different creature (presumably this would take some time, but since they don't die of age...you know). I would think this kind of thing would still go on in Sauron's time...and there are also mentions throughout LotR about the "breeding" of Orcs.