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a cut of domestic sheep prime

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We're not talking about deep frying, bro. Just lightly sear the girl. I'm not cruel. Geez. :M
 

Akkudakku

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Why do you want to kill the mother of our unborn child, Lambchop? :(
Hope Bai has enough moral fiber not to
stock-photo-abort-button-in-red-133836512.jpg
.
If we keep up the way we treat that poor girl she will be all Stockholm Syndrome over Jing.

And about that, wonder how's Qilin's pregnancy going. Will it be a boy? Or a girl?

And damn it, this is what kind of father Jing will be:
Irresponsible_e96242_1059382.jpg
 

Smashing Axe

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Divinity: Original Sin
Yeah. BJ's not a threat to us anymore because she's probably preggers.

B - I don't want Shun to die. Surely we could tell him why we're not imparting the technique to him
X
XI
Conditional Flop for both of these options to VII
 

Absinthe

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Messages
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Did we get any benefits from our sparring sessions of last update, or is being beaten by zhang run of the mill these days?
We got more practice with our Wuxiang Qiankun against Armaiti, but I'm pretty sure getting our ass kicked by Zhang Jue is par for the course, unless treave wants to give us that +1 swords now that we've gotten serious practice with all our sword techs.
 

Kashmir Slippers

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treave, could you possibly tell us how memorizing techniques works with the WQS when/if we hit the appropriate level? Is it as simple as just watching someone do a move, or is there more to it? Are there any drawbacks?I don't expect you to spoil anything, but I would like to know exactly how it works since we are putting all our hopes and dreams on it, apparently.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
As simple as just watching it. Anyway, to simplify matters:

Learning:
Permanently get technique, though level may vary depending on difficulty of technique.
Half skill boost except when using technique, in which case it is full.

Copying:
Temporarily get technique at the level it was used at.
Temporary skill boost to match the user of the technique.
 

Sunnmøring

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Feb 18, 2014
Messages
59
I'll go with B X XI, being able to copy techniques from the great swordsmen in all their variety is much more useful than bringing in a handful of other techniques... which, given enough skill in the technique, we can use to instantly copy those other ones anyway.
 

Baltika9

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Messages
9,611
Kinda hypocritical of us to deny Shun the WQS when we are studying it like crazy, especially since we're now likely than him to get lossy in Transcedence.
 

Tribute

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Messages
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I would suggest we be very clear about its dangers in A, but Jing has a habit of leaving out useful information when he says things.

Admittedly not usually to people he trusts, which would include Shun.
 

Absinthe

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Baltika9, we're probably going to stop meditating at rank 4 for this reason.

The goal is really to rush for the first level for instant mastery and then actually branch out some.
 

Baltika9

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I would suggest we be very clear about its dangers in A, but Jing has a habit of leaving out useful information when he says things.

Admittedly not usually to people he trusts, which would include Shun.
Oh, we will definitely warn him about the dangers and even then, he is much less likely than us to get "lost:"
treave can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Shun isn't interested in actually using WQS, but is more intrigued by the philosophy behind it.

He wants to read about it and dissect the theory, yes. As for practicing it, hard to say, but meditating on the technique is something more dangerous to a practitioner who already knows plenty of martial arts, compared to a novice. Paradoxically, it is easier to lose your way with this technique if you know - or think you know - where you want to go, and if you don't know where to go, most of the time what happens is that you don't go anywhere.
A few more questions, treave: Is Cao'er going to learn techniques from Xuezi now? Is Yifang going to learn the Jueshi Wugong Sword Song? Can we warn Shun about the risks of losing yourself in meditation, never to return, and advise him that it is best to practice it a lot in matches - not to improve your understand of the skill, but to keep your understanding grounded in practical applications and reduce the risk of losing yourself? Can we teach Wuxiang Qiankun to Yunzi?

Maybe. Yes. You will, after learning about that drawback from Shaolin's records. You could, but she won't find it easy to learn.
 

Esquilax

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I can't believe it. Even with Master Zhang's rare and obscenely powerful techniques, we're still going with improving the same skill that we've worked exclusively on, with no thought or consideration to branching out.

Ok, flopping to B XI VI to do my best to lock in the assisted meditation victory. A pity the laser eye option didn't have more votes.

Of the two, I find the assisted meditation more attractive if I were to pick just one. Meditating on our own is something available during every training session, but if we find a way to return Xuezi's powers to her and she decides to return to Tianshan, we won't have her guidance. I don't wanna play up this angle too much, but it also applies to Master Zhang's techniques as well. We have a unique opportunity to study from Master Zhang, and we don't know when we're going to get the chance to see him again.

Eh, only one way to find out, then. That restriction only applies to deceptive Jiuyin techniques anyway, and we're not about to fight Lady Ji or Bai Jiutian, I reckon. By his reckoning, the Zhang family doesn't have more Jiuyin techniques yet anyway.

How do you know? Wuxiang Qiankun couldn't grasp BJ's Nine Shadows Imprisonment Sword, but I don't see why it would be able to copy techniques from the equally powerful Jiuyang manual either. If WQS could simply mimic these legendary techniques, it would be more sought after than those other manuals in the first place. I get that you like the Wuxiang Qiankun combo, but you're trying to fit the facts to the choice you like. Maybe we'll be able to mimic these techniques far down the line, but certainly not at Level 3.

Oh, and as for the knowledge that Bai Jiutian has:

“I discussed the matter with my shimu. Besides the fragment of the Jiuyin manual that I copied from under their noses, they should not have any of the full books yet.”

“Your shimu could be lying to you.”

“She could be,” says Bai, and the tone in her voice warns you not to go any further with this line of conversation. It appears to be a rather sensitive issue to her.

She doesn't know what the Zhang Clan has. We know they've obtained the Jiuyang manual, Zhang Manlou's ancestor possessed Wuxiang Qiankun, and that they have fragments of the Jiuyin manual. If one of them shows up at this Conference - and given their allies in Huashan and Taishan, they definitely have a stake in doing so - good luck in mimicking those techniques if it comes down to it.

I'll go with B X XI, being able to copy techniques from the great swordsmen in all their variety is much more useful than bringing in a handful of other techniques... which, given enough skill in the technique, we can use to instantly copy those other ones anyway.

I mentioned this earlier, but Great Sword techniques are best used with the Great Sword in question.

Handling easily doesn't mean you can use it efficiently in mimicking other Great Sword techniques because those techniques tend to focus on the particular unique qualities of each sword. The Yuchang Sword can't mimic the weight of the Zhanlu Sword, or the flexibility of the Chengying Sword, and it sure as hell isn't going to glow golden like the Chunjun Sword even if you mimic Nie Wuxing's particular swordplay.

You can't swing the Zhanlu Sword like the Saint and you can't make it shine like Nie Wuxing's Chunjun Sword. At Level 3, we can probably copy the Saint's sword qi (the one he uses without an actual sword). These Great Swords are special for a reason, if they were interchangeable, they wouldn't be such a big deal. WQS has helped us out a lot, but it's a lot less useful in the Sword Conference, with techniques that are best suited for each sword, than it is outside of it. We're not paying attention to the context of the situation that we're in.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
I'll see if it's too much trouble to count the flops, if I get confused halfway or if there's more than one way to count them I'm not going to do it.
 

Absinthe

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I can't believe it. Even with Master Zhang's rare and obscenely powerful techniques, we're still going with improving the same skill that we've worked exclusively on, with no thought or consideration to branching out.
That's because we do branch out through our mystery bonuses and we're going to branch out like crazy once we reach rank 4. Even before rank 4, we can copy our buddies' moves in a fight anyway.

How do you know? Wuxiang Qiankun couldn't grasp BJ's Nine Shadows Imprisonment Sword, but I don't see why it would be able to copy techniques from the equally powerful Jiuyang manual either. If WQS could simply mimic these legendary techniques, it would be more sought after than those other manuals in the first place. I get that you like the Wuxiang Qiankun combo, but you're trying to fit the facts to the choice you like. Maybe we'll be able to mimic these techniques far down the line, but certainly not at Level 3.
Educated guess. According to treave, the reason we couldn't copy the technique is because it was imperceptible. Following that train of thought, I would guess that other techniques which are perceptible would be within our abilities to copy. You are saying that all the legendary techniques would have to be special in some way or another to stop our copying. While I wouldn't rule out what you're saying, I think my rationale is more solid.

I mentioned this earlier, but Great Sword techniques are best used with the Great Sword in question.
Yes, they are, but we will still be much better off for copying their techniques and adding our own. If nothing else, having a great insight into those techniques should improve our abilities at the countering game. Treave, can you confirm this?
 
Last edited:

treave

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It would, but having the extra insight might only mean that you realize sometimes the best counter is to scream at them, or shoot eye lasers, or soft-counter all over their face with Taiji spam etc. You can't know for sure before (if) you face those techniques.
 

Nevill

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
  1. We can still copy our allies in a fight. If we want Taiji Sword, for instance, then with the Wuxiang Qiankun upgrade I'm going to guess our neigong and/or Wuxiang Qiankun will be high enough to let us immediately copy Guo Fu when we want and use it. That means that any techniques we learn, we could already use without learning. That's why I'm not impressed with the learning thing.
This right here showcases everything that is wrong with supertechs. They turn their practitioner from a fighter to a popamoler who is plain not interested in actually learning martial arts, instead content to smash a single button much like the lab rat who could only do one thing once the electrodes were connected to the pleasure center in its brain.

It kills the spirit of martial arts.

I don't think I even need to prove my case, seeing what Jing is turning into. :lol: I am still cringing at a thought of the faggotry that was the option of having us fight the Shaolin Abbott supercharged. We are degenerating at a high speed indeed.
 

Tribute

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Considering flopping to the Full Zhang Jue package.

I also really want to learn Wudang techs, and I have no idea if we're going to go befriend them personally (in which case we don't need to take it right this minute). Armaiti's defensive tech would also help with our general lack of defenses.

I get the feeling our current attack techniques + Armaiti stance + Taiji Fist/Sword would make us incredibly good at both attack and defense without eating up neigong.
 

Esquilax

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Messages
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Considering flopping to the Full Zhang Jue package.

I alone have stood strong! Zhang Jue is the anti-popamole!

This right here showcases everything that is wrong with supertechs. They turn their practitioner from a fighter to a popamoler who is plain not interested in actually learning martial arts, instead content to smash a single button much like the lab rat who could only do one thing once the electrodes were connected to the pleasure center in its brain.

It kills the spirit of martial arts.

I don't think I even need to prove my case, seeing what Jing is turning into. :lol: I am still cringing at a thought of the faggotry that was the option of having us fight the Shaolin Abbott supercharged. We are degenerating at a high speed indeed.

The Shaolin are truly the most Codexian of the Eight Sects:

Most of the monks are engaged in intense conversation with each other, as they debate the minutiae of the fight that they have just seen like rabid, fight-obsessed maniacs. Then again, they aremembers of a temple with nothing to enjoy except Buddhist sutras and martial arts. You are not exactly surprised.

Think about it: you have an entire place that's full of shut-in, virgin guys who are obsessed about the minutiae of topics that normal people couldn't possibly give a fuck about. If that's not Codexian, I don't know what is.
 

Absinthe

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Nevill, hey now, that's unfair. This isn't a single move we use in every fight to the detriment of all else. It's an ability that opens up a huge number of extra moves to us while we use everything we have.
 

Baltika9

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Nevill, hey now, that's unfair. This isn't a single move we use in every fight to the detriment of all else. It's an ability that opens up a huge number of extra moves to us while we use everything we have.
Except that's exactly what is happening: we are beginning to default to WQS as the solution to all of our problems. And that is a problem: yes, WQS is amazing and broken as fuck and yes, it is a legendary skill. But it's just a tool in our arsenal, and making it our crutch and letting go of our roots and pugilistic know-how is bound to bite us in the ass.
It would, but having the extra insight might only mean that you realize sometimes the best counter is to scream at them, or shoot eye lasers, or soft-counter all over their face with Taiji spam etc. You can't know for sure before (if) you face those techniques.

Anyway, I'll compile a list of all the worthwhile arguments in favor of picking up actual techniques instead of the WQS upgrades and see if anyone else can be persuaded to flop. In no particular order:
Baltika9 said:
Bros, you do realize that WQS at lvl 4 allows us to instantly memorize techniques from opponents with lower neigong, right? I get it, WQS is fuck-all awesome, but we gotta learn some actually new stuff so that we're not sucking without it. Besides that, Lord Zhang is a mercurial and independent spirit, no telling when we will next meet him. The Serpent Eye and Conquering Roar are very advanced and useful techniques.
x X XI.

If we get 2 more levels in WQS we will be able to get techs just by looking at them.

This is still a long ways away:

Level 1: mimic lower level internal energy
Level 2: mimic same level internal energy
Level 3: mimic higher level internal energy
Level 4: mimic higher level internal energy, memorize lower level internal energy instantly
Level 5: mimic higher level internal energy, memorize same level internal energy instantly
Level 6: ???
Level 7: PROFIT!!!

It took us two meditation sessions on our own to advance to level 2, and while WQS provides some badass MYSTARY! boosts (which is probably what we're going to get, not progression to Level 3), we aren't going to memorize lower level internal energy any time soon. Level 4 also isn't going to get us any closer to memorizing Master Zhang's techniques, because he has a ridiculous amount of qi flowing through his body. And well, as Baltika9 said, we don't know when we're going to run into him next. You can't memorize his techniques if you never see the guy.

The Manly Lion's Violent Roar is also perfect for a situation like the Conference:

Oh yes, it is a technique that most will find hard to counter as well as a faster way to disable your opponent compared to silk and a very, very effective method of crowd control. Pity indeed.

Given that we'll be fighting multiple people, this is just the sort of thing that could give Jing an edge.
As for helping us in the conference, I rather expect that we will just expose ourselves as the master of Wuxiang Qiankun there. Against the stronger sword masters, I think an improved Wuxiang Qiankun would be our best bet.

Ah, but this is exactly my point, it wouldn't. Each Great Sword is unique and utilizes techniques designed for it, specifically. Look at our own Yuchang Sword; it's lighter, faster and more flexible than any blade out there, so a lot of moves work best for it, and only it. If someone were to use WQS on us while we're using Yuchang Sword techniques, it wouldn't really be a good idea, because we can still perform the same technique that they copied, but much more effectively.[/quote]
Nevill said:
What we need is a few of our own techniques (that we can use anywhere regardless of what our opponents use) that either bolster our strengths or cover our weaknesses. Of those, Manly Roar (for crowd control), Taiji Sword and Fist (for parrying and deflection) and Armaiti's tech (sheer staying power) attract me the most.

I'd go for Zhang's tech first, since we don't know how long he will accompany us or when we meet him again, and then choose whatever gets the most traction.
Kashmir Slippers said:
What makes you think that we will be able to learn these techniques with a level 4 skill? Why would there be higher levels if we are able to copy a legendary technique just at the drop of a hat. I think you all are greatly overestimating the strength of the ability.

We would probably be learning the likes of techniques that we ran into at the beginning of the LP: ones that were used by junior pugilists. We won't be able to learn master-level techs until at least level 5, which is an incredible ways away.
...
I fear that we are becoming over-reliant on the WQS and that we are treating it as some magical get-out-of-jail-for-free card.

In pretty much every fight that we have fought, we have needed to pull it out because we would have lost otherwise. If, for some reason, it were to fail, then we would be without anything else o go on. I feel like we are crippling ourselves by investing so much into it. All the other masters became masters because of their fighting ability. They did so without the WQS, yet, somehow, they can still beat us. The time has come for us to continue improving our innate fighting ability and not completely relying on the WQS to get us out of trouble, because if there ever comes a time where it doesn't work, we are going to be fucked.
Esquilax said:
And what about when we eventually do get to WQS Level 4? At that point, we'll see who has the legendary techniques from the Xuanming Jiuyin Holy Art and the Xiaoming Jiuyang Divine Skill and the same line of argumentation will begin anew: "Guys, our current level of WQS isn't enough to mimic their skills, but trust me, we don't need to learn these techniques, because when we get to Level 7, we'll memorize legendary techniques instantly!"

It's a bad argument. Okay, MYSTARY boosts are one thing, and they have helped, but we are getting dangerously close to treating WQS as some sort of magic bullet. While Lambchop19 does make some good points in that it's a balancing act (if you invest in it, of course you're going to rely on it more) given the context of the situation with the Sword Conference (where WQS won't be as useful), the level of fighters that we'll be facing, and the opportunity to learn some killer moves from Master Zhang, we would be so much better served with improving our fundamental, bread-and-butter martial arts skill.

And, of course, this gem from Nevill:
Nevill said:
This right here showcases everything that is wrong with supertechs. They turn their practitioner from a fighter to a popamoler who is plain not interested in actually learning martial arts, instead content to smash a single button much like the lab rat who could only do one thing once the electrodes were connected to the pleasure center in its brain.

It kills the spirit of martial arts.

I don't think I even need to prove my case, seeing what Jing is turning into. :lol: I am still cringing at a thought of the faggotry that was the option of having us fight the Shaolin Abbott supercharged. We are degenerating at a high speed indeed.

Bros that are voting against the WQS Spam, please consider uniting under the choices that have a solid chance of beating it (and for not, it is Dingdong Step (Option V) and Manly Roar (Option VI). I personally am flopping back to my A VI VII in case loyalty to our LORD and Master prevails.
 

Esquilax

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Messages
4,833
We are really just asking for the rug to get pulled under us with this sort of rampant overspecialization at the cost of everything else. Five training opportunities, spread out over three updates, all spent on the same shit, over and over. And I presume the next one, because we need to get to Level 4, I guess. Every clarification that treave has made about the WQS boost has made me more and more leery of it.

So, we can't use the Great Sword styles of other pugilists with it as effectively as their wielders can:

Handling easily doesn't mean you can use it efficiently in mimicking other Great Sword techniques because those techniques tend to focus on the particular unique qualities of each sword. The Yuchang Sword can't mimic the weight of the Zhanlu Sword, or the flexibility of the Chengying Sword, and it sure as hell isn't going to glow golden like the Chunjun Sword even if you mimic Nie Wuxing's particular swordplay.

We can't copy legendary techniques from the other manuals with it, or if we can, not anytime soon (it ain't happening at Level 3, that's for goddamn sure):

Some people asserted we couldn't copy Bai's move because it was imperceptible, others (myself) because we thought Bai added qi he had been holding back to exceed our limits. Is it possible to copy legendary techniques (esp. if we upgrade Wuxiang Qiankun)?
...
The former interpretation is the correct one. As to whether upgrading Wuxiang Qiankun will allow you to surpass that limitation, you don't know if it will.

This is bad, because we know that Nie Wuxing at Huashan and Liu Ye at Taishan - who are both coming - have connections with the Zhang family that possesses the full Jiuyang manual and at the very least, fragments of the Jiuyin manual. The Chengying Sword that Xiahou Yu's family was massacred for and Wudang's Qixing Longyuan Sword are also missing and could have been the Zhang Clan's work as well. Point is, expecting WQS to be a magic bullet in every situation is bound to fuck us at some point.

In addition, this approach can leave us overspecialized to such an extent that we might not have the tools, derived from actual martial arts skill, to respond or counter properly:

It would, but having the extra insight might only mean that you realize sometimes the best counter is to scream at them, or shoot eye lasers, or soft-counter all over their face with Taiji spam etc. You can't know for sure before (if) you face those techniques.

Nobody is denying that Wuxiang Qiankun Skill is the most powerful thing in our arsenal. But we have studied it exclusively thus far, only obtaining other techniques on the side, but never as part of a training choice. At this Conference, it's clear from the get-go that technique copying will only get us so far with the Great Sword wielders and the high likelihood of people that possess their own legendary techniques in attendance. Mystery boosts are one thing that I can't deny is very useful, but without a foundation of martial arts skill to draw upon, it will not get us very far.

Lastly, I seem to recall there was once a very powerful pugilist that we once knew that was also a practitioner of Wuxiang Qiankun. Gosh, I wonder what happened to him?

“B-but that can’t be, Lord Ahura spent years trying to understand just the first level!” blurts out Haurvatat.
...
There is a sudden explosion of light. Gathering all of his power, Ahura moves to attack the Grand Taoist. You do not catch what happens next clearly, but it ends with the Fire Lord wreathed in flame, screaming as he is burned by his own fires. His arms and legs fall limp by his side as he collapses to the ground. Ahura crawls towards his adherents in pain, inching away from the Grand Taoist. His Amesha Spenta, regaining their consciousness, run to his aid and drag him to safety as Wang watches on.

Maybe if his level of WQS were higher, this wouldn't have happened! Shame he couldn't think of a counter.

Oh, and I am not flopping out of loyalty and love for Lord Zhang. The rest of you heretics are hereby removed from the Zhang Jue Appreciation Society. NO FUCK YOU I'M NOT BUTTHURT YOU ARE!
 

Tribute

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Messages
919
What's the vote tally like? Do I need to add in a conditional flop to ZJ goodness?
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Maybe if his level of WQS were higher, this wouldn't have happened! Shame he couldn't think of a counter.
Dud, look at the line you quoted above:
“B-but that can’t be, Lord Ahura spent years trying to understand just the first level!” blurts out Haurvatat.
Was he really a pratcitioner? Sounds to me like he couldn't even get the basics... Even if he was, his level probably wasn't very high - if it ever made it past the first level at all. If he really was very skilled at WQS, why couldn't he change his chaotic qi into ordered qi after that fight or during our fight?

The one who had truly mastered WQS was Wang and he used some crazy advanced form of it to move the entire battlefield around and waste that bro all deus ex machina like. Sounds like a pretty useful ability, no?
 

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