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[LP CYOA] 傳

Joined
Feb 11, 2007
Messages
2,951
I'm against killing the woman. She might very well be completely innocent in all this and the only reason Yao wants her dead is because of revenge for an insult to him. Or not. But I personally wish to err on the side that doesn't needlessly make us a bloodthirsty asshole like Zhang. Yes, we swore a debt to Yao, but even he didn't order us to kill the girl, he ordered us to save Cao'er (and then presumably to save him as well). I say that is more then enough to repay any debt we have to him.

Also, Yao's philosophy of killing one person for every one he saves is hardly absolute - we are the living proof of that. This whole thing really stinks like revenge to me. Well, the old man is dead, whatever insult he made to Yao is avenged. If we manage to get him out we should just tell him to drop this matter - it's over. He waived the price for us because Cao'er was too important to him, he can do it again as a thank you for his life and Cao'er's freedom. And if he then still wants to go against the girl he can do it alone, without dragging us or Cao'er into his personal lunacy.
 

Kipeci

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Messages
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Location
Vicksburg
>Oh god, Zhang will make us a murderer!
>*Act like a murderer even when you have alternatives and nonone is demanding that the girl die.*
Look, Yao isn't demanding we kill anybody here, his only order is rescuong Cao'er. He has a plan for the rest, let him use it.

I was never one of the people who had a hang-up about that, why are you quoting me there? Anyway, you're not right all the way there. Yao isn't ordering us to kill her, but it's pretty clear that he's indicating he wants for us to kill her with statements like "I see. Jing, I am giving you my last request as your master. Kill Song Lingshu tonight, and bring Cao’er with you when you leave." We owe him that much.

We also learned about other facts. That Yao has gone crazy with thoughts of revenge is one of them.

In fact, he himself admits to his shortcomings, but does nothing to help it.

He's no more crazy now than he's been all along in demanding the death price.

For that, we need to complete the challenge. Cutting throats while people are asleep is one way to do that, but not the only way.

It's the most efficient way that will also help to satisfy an oath that we swore to uphold. He was our former master who saved our life and we still hadn't paid that lifedebt by the time we left; it may be distasteful, not gonna lie that I would have preferred a match out in the open, but it even fits in with our goals.

Funny, nobody but Azira voted for stabbing Rong Jr with a dagger when our life immediately depended on it, and now we are ready to slaughter innocent women left and right because it would coincide with our current goals.

I was voting at first for the hopefully less lethal and certainly more open way of going about this in D from the last choice. Since that was denied and Yao has beseeched us to kill her, this is the only option that remains for me. This sort of thing popping up is why I hate the sneaking options, but there you have it.
 

Nevill

Arcane
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Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Kipeci said:
He's no more crazy now than he's been all along in demanding the death price.
He now has Cao'er to take care of. He needs to be more careful.

Zero Credibility said:
Also, Yao's philosophy of killing one person for every one he saves is hardly absolute - we are the living proof of that. This whole thing really stinks like revenge to me. Well, the old man is dead, whatever insult he made to Yao is avenged. If we manage to get him out we should just tell him to drop this matter - it's over. He waived the price for us because Cao'er was too important to him, he can do it again as a thank you for his life. And if he then still wants to go against the girl he can do it alone, without dragging us or Cao'er into his personal lunacy.
This. This, so much. He is willing to drop his philosophy for Cao'er. This intent has to be encouraged, not dismissed.
And no, we can convince him NOT to go against the girl. He had wavered just a while ago.

God, such a desicion, and I have to be offline for 8 hours. Just my luck, I suppose.

A2>B3. Speak with the heir and arrange for peace between her and Yao.
 
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Esquilax

Arcane
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Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
Again, how is it in our interest to be known as another maniac, not to mention actually become one?

Last time I checked the plan, we intended for the challenges to be non-lethal. What happened to that?

This wasn't the question you initially asked: your question was how it was in our interests to kill her, and I provided a pretty good answer. Nobody said anything about the challenges being non-lethal:

Do anything you have to win, to show that you are the strongest. Maim them if you have to. Kill them if you need to.
...
Nah, INT 7 won't cut it, you aren't clever enough to change a technique to be less brutal without making it less effective. Maybe parts of the technique with 8, definitely with 9.

But what you can do is that you can hold back in a fight, though it handicaps you a lot more than it would an orthodox fighter because you'll have to be a lot more careful with your attacks, particularly if you're using your unique inner strength. You're learning from the Southern Maniac, so the downside is that if you fight even semi-seriously, your enemy has a chance of being maimed if not killed due to the nature of the attacks you use. It's a drawback you'll have to accept until you grow a lot more skilled.

If we're going with a "no kill" rule during the challenges, it's going to hurt us a lot more than its going to hurt our opponent. I'd prefer not to kill anyone, but there are Eight people that we have to defeat, and a few will probably die over the course of these challenges.

I was voting at first for the hopefully less lethal and certainly more open way of going about this in D from the last choice. Since that was denied and Yao has beseeched us to kill her, this is the only option that remains for me. This sort of thing popping up is why I hate the sneaking options, but there you have it.

I don't think that's entirely accurate:

“I see. Jing, I am giving you my last request as your master. Kill Song Lingshu tonight, and bring Cao’er with you when you leave. The former is optional, but I will beg you to do at least the latter.”

So basically, he's somewhat okay with us not killing Song Lingshu, but he really wants us to rescue Cao'er. The latter goal is more important to him, this is obvious. I don't think that you're really examining the alternatives here - "Well, since we're sneaking, guess we gotta slit her throat". I don't buy that.

I already proposed an alternative if we could still duel: enter her room right now with the intent of terrifying her, then challenge her to a duel in the morning. But perhaps there are other options: treave, could we prick Song Lingshu with some Three Poisons Powder while she sleeps? Enough to make her feel nauseous and dizzy for most of the day. When morning comes, we can challenge her to a duel under the following terms: she is allowed to kill us, but we are not allowed to kill her. However, if she yields, she must free Yao and Cao'er. If we manage to poison her without her noticing, I think that we could pull it off, despite the fact that we're handicapped with our unorthodox style.
 
Joined
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Messages
2,951
Reading through the choices again, I think I'm getting a general idea what might be Yao's plan. Why is Cao'er even in custody and why would he ask us to hide her from Emei? Maybe Emei are in sudden and desperate need of an excellent healer, and only Cao'er or Yao would suffice. Since Emei are the allies of this sect, they can get him out alive if Coa'er suddenly turns up missing and unable to do her job. So getting her out would also serve to save him as well. I think.

In any case I'm for leaving this place with Cao'er. If we want to do some negotiating or something else later, it would be much better if she was hidden somewhere first. One less thing to worry about.
 

Baltika9

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Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
B3 is just taking Cao'er and Yao be damned. I can settle for this, but I find this a bit too cold for my taste.
No, it's not. Yao himself said he has a plan for the Emei to get him out of here, if Cao'er is absent. Let him go through with it, he's not retarded. Crazy, but not retarded.
The conditions are almost ideal: Cao'er is the smallest, greyest mouse, and the quietest, the patrols are undisciplined students, I won't be surprised if some are sleeping on post. The only guards we have to worry about are the ones near her room, they'll definitely put some seniors there. And still, KOing them should be child's play.
I was never one of the people who had a hang-up about that, why are you quoting me there? Anyway, you're not right all the way there. Yao isn't ordering us to kill her, but it's pretty clear that he's indicating he wants for us to kill her with statements like "I see. Jing, I am giving you my last request as your master. Kill Song Lingshu tonight, and bring Cao’er with you when you leave." We owe him that much.
I was just using that as a template for my example, didn't mean it personally. And Yao is asking us to do his "duty" for him. But being his pet hitman isn't my cup of tea.
However, let me give the flipside of all this. Jing is a born killer. It is what it is. He honed that killer instinct by practicing on prisoners as a child, and now training with the Southern Maniac has honed that further. Sure, we could argue about who deserves what and say that Master Rong's son deserved to die (and maybe I'd agree with you), but the fact of the matter is that we didn't have any problems with killing a bandit on our way here. I guess that bandit "deserved" it too. Jing didn't seem too choked up about it.
No, Jing wasn't born a killer, he was raised as one. The secret police gave him the training and tools. Zhang's training gave him more of both. It's entirely up to us to use them. As the old joke says:
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: So, General Reinwald, what things are you going to teach these young boys when they visit your base?"
GENERAL: We're going to teach them climbing, canoeing, archery, and shooting."
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: "Shooting! That's a bit irresponsible, isn't it?"
GENERAL: "I don't see why, they'll be properly supervised on the rifle range."
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: "Don't you admit that this is a terribly dangerous activity to be teaching children?"
GENERAL: "I don't see how. We will be teaching them proper rifle discipline before they even touch a firearm. "
FEMALE INTERVIEWER: "But you're equipping them to become violent killers."
GENERAL: "Well, you're equipped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you? "
Point is, it's up to us to decide if we become the heartless killer everyone wants us to become and since not even Zhang demands we kill her, why should we indulge Yao's psychosis?
My stance is obvious.
And about those bandits: we're not a fucking paladin. They were trying to capture a teenage girl alive, and not for tea and crumpets mind you, and tried to kill us when we intervened. I'm just saying that I'd do the same thing, given the chance.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
treave, I have an idea that would be a combination of A3 and B2: we use our mask to threaten Song Lingshu tonight and break her psychologically. After that, we beat a hasty retreat out of the school. When morning comes, we return to issue Zhang's challenge against Song Lingshu tomorrow while she's distraught and sleep-deprived.

If you convince the other voters it is workable and the option wins, I don't see why not. I'll give sufficient time to lobby for any modifications.
 
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a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
B1 - Since we never met Song, we have no idea what she is like or if she will even listen to Yao, kill her, and hope that the old man really will be rescued.

Btw, once again, we don't have enough information. Codex gonna codex.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
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Messages
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B1 is the option that kills him, though, in addition to making us the killer everyone thinks Zhang made us (which, funny enough, he didn't). Hoping for a halleluja moment is pretty damned naive.
 

Esquilax

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Messages
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B1 - Since we never met Song, we have no idea what she is like or if she will even listen to Yao, kill her, and hope that the old man really will be rescued.

Btw, once again, we don't have enough information. Codex gonna codex.

What kind of information would we have gotten from Song that we wouldn't from Yao? I suppose we would have learned the layout of the living quarters that Cao'er is being held in, but we learned enough about Song Lingshu to form a pretty well developed idea of her. And what we've learned is that she's completely innocent in all this and doesn't deserve to die. There was a lot of information that Yao gave us that Song Lingshu would not: her father acted dishonorably by refusing the Killing Physician's price to save his own life, this is something that we definitely would not have known that from her. We also wouldn't have known about the Emei nuns and their involvement. My point is that different choices are going to give us different bits of info, but it's not like we're completely ignorant here.

In terms of pure information, going to the Emei would probably have been the best bet, since we'd know exactly how the nuns are invovled, but being here puts us in the best position to act and maneuver the situation. A problem with B3 is where Cao'er is located:

“She is being held in better conditions in the main living quarters,” replies Yao promptly. “Will that be harder for you to reach?” You give it some thought. “Perhaps. It depends on the layout, and how many people are in the main quarters.”

We haven't mapped out the place like we would have in B, so we don't know how well-guarded Cao'er is going to be. A disguise would probably serve us pretty well right about now.

B3 for now
 

ScubaV

Prophet
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Feb 20, 2011
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B3
Because I suspect B1 will close off the maximum possible harem ending. :smug:
 

Grimgravy

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire
B3
Time is short. We could too easily be delayed with 1 or 2 and get caught with the sun coming up. Let's get Cao'er out and then proceed from there.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
B3 voters need to ask themselves why the heck they want the frog voiced girl who doesn't bathe following them around when Jing has no meridians for her to heal him with.

If we take Cao'er and don't kill Song, the nuns probably won't be able to effect Yao's release and we'll have to take care of her. We'd be stuck with her mangy ass jealously trying to slop Yao's smelly pig goo on Jing's whoring, adulterous baby-arm every five minutes. :(


What kind of information would we have gotten from Song that we wouldn't from Yao? I suppose we would have learned the layout of the living quarters that Cao'er is being held in, but we learned enough about Song Lingshu to form a atpretty well developed idea of her. And what we've learned is that she's completely innocent in all this and doesn't deserve to die.
Really? So we know she isn't a cold-hearted mega-bitch? We know she will listen to reason? We know that she isn't super vindictive and won't hunt Cao'er down after killing Yao? (Yes, she was given more comfortable quarters than Yao, but she's still a prisoner. For all we know, it was the other nuns that took pity on her and petitioned their cruel mistress to let her stay somewhere comfortable before her execution.) We also don't know why or if the nuns would help Yao escape. My point is that we know nothing about her personality or any other objectives she may or may not have, only that she wants Yao dead.
There was a lot of information that Yao gave us that Song Lingshu would not: her father acted dishonorably by refusing the Killing Physician's price to save his own life, this is something that we definitely would not have known that from her. We also wouldn't have known about the Emei nuns and their involvement. My point is that different choices are going to give us different bits of info, but it's not like we're completely ignorant here.
We probably would have heard the same story from Song, only spun in a way that paints her family honorably - but Jing is smart enough to see through that.

I liked your suggestion of using the masked negotiation to throw her off guard and issuing the challenge. I'm still confused as to whether we'd be fighting her or her apprentice in the challenge?
 
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Tigranes

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Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
From what Yao has said, it doesn't seem like Emei's rescuing him is dependent upon Jing killing Song Lingshu, only upon him getting Cao'er out. It sounds like if we can use Esquilax's plan and rescue Cao'er, intimidate Song Lingshu then issue the challenge, it might all work pretty well.

Of course, we can't underestimate Song Lingshu for her age and gender; intimidation may well backfire and screw with our escape. It's a pity that we have all the information we need except information about the girl.
 

Esquilax

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Messages
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Cao'er has skills other than being a healer, don't dismiss it. She is a genius with an eidetic memory - she'll be the perfect coach for the tournament, able to detect flaws in our opponents and devise strategies for us. It's like having Rain Man in the casino counting cards for you.

She's been with Yao for all this time, so she might even be able to share a technique or two from him. Another benefit to having Cao'er around is that if we're issuing challenges against people with the violent, crippling techniques that we possess, we don't have to hold back as much if we can guarantee that Cao'er will be around to heal any of our wounded competitors. It would do a lot to mitigate potential bad blood if Cao'er can patch up all the broken bones we'll be causing. She may not be able to heal us, but she can heal our opponent after a fight.

I liked your suggestion of using the masked negotiation to throw her off guard and issuing the challenge. I'm still confused as to whether we'd be fighting her or her apprentice in the challenge?

I imagined it like this: we'd sneak into her room while wearing a mask, reminding her that if Yao isn't free, we'll be paying her another visit shortly, only we won't be so friendly next time. We can either do that or poison her a bit so that she feels nauseous the next day - just like we had the opportunity to back when we were seeking the invitation to Luoyang Manor. The plan here would be to affect her so that she can't provide decent competition against us when we challenge her:

In D, you'll resort to your Master's fantastic reputation to intimidate the still young and inexperienced head into accepting because outright demanding they let him go would be a loss of face for them and unacceptable terms. Carrot and stick, we can do this with a duel, or my master will be displeased.

Of course, there would still be issues as to what the terms of the duel would be and whether this plan would work to begin with, but that's the broad strokes of it.

B1 is the option that kills him, though, in addition to making us the killer everyone thinks Zhang made us (which, funny enough, he didn't). Hoping for a halleluja moment is pretty damned naive.

I'd like to point out that B1 won't kill Yao. It has problems, sure, but it won't kill him. The man is aware of certain things that we aren't privy to, and he seems to be very confident that he'll make it out in one piece even if we end up killing Song Lingshu and running off with Cao'er. I'm inclined to believe him here, considering his relationship with the Emei.
 

treave

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Messages
11,370
Codex 2012
Kipeci - B1
Azira - B1
Baltika9 - B3
Zero Credibility - B3
The Brazilian Slaughter - B3
Ifeex - B1
Stygian Lurker - B1
Jester - B2
Kashmir Slippers - B3
Nevill - A2 > B3
Lambchop19 - B1
m4davis - B2
Esquilax - B1
ScubaV - B3
Grimgravy - B3
ERYFKRAD - B3
XenomorphII - B1
LWC1996 - B3
Smashing Axe - A3 > B1
TOME - B3

***

Current tally:

A2 - 1
A3 - 1
B1 - 7
B2 - 2
B3 - 9
 
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Kashmir Slippers

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Here, obviously
B3 voters need to ask themselves why the heck they want the frog voiced girl who doesn't bathe following them around when Jing has no meridians for her to heal him with.

If we take Cao'er and don't kill Song, the nuns probably won't be able to effect Yao's release and we'll have to take care of her. We'd be stuck with her mangy ass jealously trying to slop Yao's smelly pig goo on Jing's whoring, adulterous baby-arm every five minutes. :(

She did save our life. Twice. We do owe her. Besides, there doesn't always have to be a material reason to do something. She is our sis and, importantly, innocent, so we will try to save her.
 

Smashing Axe

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Divinity: Original Sin
A3>B1

I'd prefer to defeat the girl in the open, she may push for it to be a battle to the death anyway because this is a matter involving her father's killer. Since no one's going for that anyway, we may as well fulfill Yao's request, since we do owe him.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Baltika9 said:
No, it's not. Yao himself said he has a plan for the Emei to get him out of here, if Cao'er is absent. Let him go through with it, he's not retarded. Crazy, but not retarded.
Let me tell how I see his last order (don't you think it is an ominous name?):

"My apprentice, I have allowed for pride to overweigh my concern for Cao'er's well-being. I have made it a point to always follow through on my philosophy without regards for my own life, but I forgot I no longer had only myself to worry about. I almost thought I was mistaken to follow my rules so vigorously, but, thankfully, you turned up and cleared my doubts. Now that you are here, I can filally put the thought of Caoer's safety to rest, and once again I would be free to execute Lingshu and get killed for it, because I can't stand the thought of being used like that. Take care of Cao'er for me."

Well, no, geezer. You don't get to take an easy way out. I am not going to watch Cao'er in your stead, leaving you free of any moral obligation you finally started to notice. You are walking out of here with the girl in tow, and you are going to watch over her from now on, even if it means that you have to abandon you life-for-a-life shenanigans. You will settle in a quiet place and live the rest of your life as just a physician, and you will thank me for it later.

The Emei may get him free, but how is he going to utilize his freedom, now that his safety trigger is removed and is in your care? Seriously, isn't it obvious that he will kill Lingshu if we leave him like that? What do you think will happen to him? Don't you hear the death flags popping all over the place?

Add this to my concerns about B choices pushing our luck, and I can't in good heart choose B3. Of course, with the same considerations, B1 is absolutely out. I don't even want to think about what would happen if you fail to rescue Cao'er after murdering Lingshu in cold blood.

Esquilax said:
The man is aware of certain things that we aren't privy to, and he seems to be very confident that he'll make it out in one piece even if we end up killing Song Lingshu and running off with Cao'er. I'm inclined to believe him here, considering his relationship with the Emei.
Maybe. Or maybe after his honor is cleared and Lingshu is dead, he doesn't care what happens to him. He can't leave the place now, and he would rather that we flee with Cao'er, so he tells us he is in no danger.

Lambchop19 said:
B3 voters need to ask themselves why the heck they want the frog voiced girl who doesn't bathe following them around when Jing has no meridians for her to heal him with.
Because if we don't do it, the nuns will take her. Fuck that.

I know that we are in no condition to be her caretaker while conducting not one, but two dangerous missions - one for our master, and one for our prince. That doesn't mean we can just wash our hands away from her. Yao does not want her on Emei Mountain - this is reason enough for me.

The only two places that we can be sure she would be safe are Luoying Manor and Ashina Tribe. Personally, I am in favor of letting her settle in a tribe - they would be glad to have a greatly experienced healer among them.

Zero Credibility said:
Reading through the choices again, I think I'm getting a general idea what might be Yao's plan. Why is Cao'er even in custody and why would he ask us to hide her from Emei? Maybe Emei are in sudden and desperate need of an excellent healer, and only Cao'er or Yao would suffice.
No, they only need Cao'er. They won't come for Yao if Cao'er won't be there. If she isn't there, they will go to Yao to ask where the hell she is.

They're coming to take her away, HA HA
They're coming to take her away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA
To the funny mountain
Where life is beautiful all the time
And she'll be happy to see
Those nice, young gals
In their clean, white robes
And they're coming to take her away, Ha-haaa!
 
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Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
It's interesting how the Codex takes votes to be a crafty unorthodox skulker in the dark and then won't follow through to kill someone we needed to attack at a later point anyway in order to fulfill even a bit of the life debt we swore just a few updates ago.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Life debt does not require us killing her.
Attacking her later does not require us killing her.
We expressed concern about Jing's mental state when we chose stalker path. We didn't do it to go around murdering people willy-nilly, and neither it requires that of us.

That logic is full of holes.
 
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