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asxetos

Augur
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
820
Location
Greece
I am seriously considering floping to B too.
I dont see any wining option at all and it does seem that B has the milder consequences.
I would love to read how the A fight would play out though :/

edit:
treave, if B wins, can we get a sneak peek on what would happen in the fight?
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Kipeci said:
Where's the problem in sacrificing our friends on the altar of personal power?
You have a point. If we sell out our bros for two skill points each, we will max out in no time. That's what bros are for.
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
Where's the problem in sacrificing our friends on the altar of personal power?

The problem is that we can't progress to the finals where we would have the chance to sacrifice complete strangers on the altar of personal power. :(

This establishes us as a clever fighter more than anything else. Weren't people certain that we would pull something off? To provoke a man into harming us, especially the one they consider to be ZJ's disciple, is surely a daring plan. We can play it off as if it was our intention all along, outsmarting the opponent and forcing him to break the rules to win.

I don't see a problem. As was said, Guo Fu should have been more careful than that. It is his loss. We made him go all out.

Do you watch boxing/MMA by any chance? Because there is nothing more lame than to see a good fight getting stopped by DQ, it fucking blows. If they think he's Zhang's disciple, they'll like us more if we kick his ass, not if we hide behind the very set of rules that we've been skirting thus far. They want to see a fucking fight here, not an anticlimactic finish without the excitement that they crave. It's clear that it'll be perceived badly, but this doesn't bother me too much.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
Look, if Zhang could push us for eighteen months without permanently disabling us, with an END of 5 and no defensive neiggong, I'm pretty sure that Guo Fu who's built like Ean will survive a five minute all-out session with us. There are always risks, yeah, but I think you're over-exaggerating the "oh lawd, we'll kill him!" element.
I think that a dude that spent his whole life working the fields, tending oxen (those fuckers are vicious), fighting off farmland bullies amd demolishing bullies and bandits to save his wife, won't get off too bad. You really should consider both their mindsets: "a'ight, let's see watcha got, man." When it's all over, we'll both get some bloody noses and cracked bones, but it's all good between us.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Esquilax said:
Do you watch boxing/MMA by any chance? Because there is nothing more lame than to see a good fight getting stopped by DQ, it fucking blows.
I don't remember any box matches won by stripping either.

This is not a boxing match, not an Olympics. This has its own rules, and we were bullshitting our way though them since the start. I don't see why we can't do so again.

And really, I am more worried about Gao Fu than us. We are no longer afraid of being lynched by the sects, we can do whatever we want. Take your win, let him stay at your place tonight for protection, make peace with him, let people pitch him as the one who broke an arm of ZJ's disciple himself, let him get a job of his dreams. This is the best outcome for him.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Baltika9 said:
Look, if Zhang could push us for eighteen months without permanently disabling us, with an END of 5 and no defensive neiggong, I'm pretty sure that Guo Fu who's built like Ean will survive a five minute all-out session with us.
What was the END of the bandits you killed in 1 hit? And you weren't even serious.

It is not the stats that matter.

Baltika9 said:
You really should consider both their mindsets: "a'ight, let's see watcha got, man."
We are a killer, he is not. He can show us what he got, we can not. This is all there is to it.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
Or it will make them frown upon him for not knowing self-restraint and breaking someone's arm. In any event, A will be great for showcasing all his talents and will practically start a fight between recruiters to get him ("say, I know a helpful chap that lives on an island not far from here. You should check him out. Bring your wife." :troll: )
No, A is better for his career.
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
I was mostly being facetious, but if it comes down to us harming Guo Fu and gaining this power or moving on, I'm more comfortable with settling for the power gain. I do think that Guo Fu is more sturdy than we're giving him credit for; A is probably rather likely to injure him, but I don't think it would be likely that he dies-- he's specifically built all around defense, and provided we don't get any one hit kills the match is going to be over and Guo Fu can be tended to by one of Cao'er, one of the greatest physicians around. We're both spoiling for a fight against a proper opponent where we can exchange some blows, and treave did say we aren't going to explicitly be launching our arm into his chest to rip out his beating heart or anything. We may get busted from the tournament, yes, but what of it? Zhang Jue would count such a result as probably a victory and, as Esquilax has been saying, there isn't that much left to be accomplishing with this tournament. Stat boosts rank higher in priority than Shaolin techniques.
 

Nevill

Arcane
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Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Baltika9 said:
Or it will make them frown upon him for not knowing self-restraint and breaking someone's arm.
He never did undergo an official training. The lack of restraint is understandable for a newbie.

Baltika9 said:
In any event, A will be great for showcasing all his talents and will practically start a fight between recruiters to get him ("say, I know a helpful chap that lives on an island not far from here. You should check him out." )
I hope that none of our friends will cross paths with Zhang, until the time comes for our final challenge.

Baltika9 said:
No, A is better for his career.
Why? He did what he came here to do.
 
Last edited:

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
B - I told you the codex couldn't resist going all out in this, even if it meant tipping our hand to our enemies. Heck, this guy doesn't even count for Zhang's challenge, does he?

1. B is a guaranteed win. A is not a guaranteed win. We could still lose or be injured even more.
2. A exposes more of our abilities to our enemies. I think we've covered why this is a bad thing enough already.
3. A risks severely injuring Guo Fu. B does not.
4. B might afford us some rest before the next fight.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Of course Guo Fu won't die. That's not the point, it's about injury. He probably won't even be mad if we injure him. It's about the crowd and it's about getting Jing disqualified from the tournament. Can we stop going round in circles again and again? The key risk for A is disqualification screwing up our plans, not NOOOOOO I DIDNT MEANT TO DISEMBOWEL YOU NOOOO GUO FUUUUU

Anyway I'm still staying on B, but Nevill we won't be able to play it off as a clever trick to provoke the opponent.... because we didnt. We just fought, it was exciting, both sides tried hard, and now we're going to say boo hoo he broke my arm that's not fair. Seriously, if we're going to vote B then it's becaus the costs of appearing to everyone watching as a cowardly arsehole is smaller than the benefits of not harming anybody and rogressing. There's no chance that people will say "clever Man Tiger Pig" on this one.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Kipeci said:
Stat boosts rank higher in priority than Shaolin techniques.
Funny, I remember our skills being raised by 2-3 points at once, but I do not remember finding 2-3 techniques together, except when we trained with Zhang. They are rare and precious.

Tigranes said:
Anyway I'm still staying on B, but Nevill we won't be able to play it off as a clever trick to provoke the opponent.... because we didnt. We just fought, it was exciting, both sides tried hard, and now we're going to say boo hoo he broke my arm that's not fair.
Why? We beat the mountain until it was forced to move and strike us back with full force. Instant loss for him. Why couldn't it have been our plan? We did put pressure on him until he slipped. We allowed for the hit to land, and managed not to get KOed. Where is the cowardice?

Boohoo? Fairness? Who speaks about fairness? Why did you allow Nie Mudan to surrender then? You should have returned her the sash and fight valiantly, like a fool.

Again I have to ask, how is breaking arms different from stepping out of the ring? What separates one from the other?

We are going to fight the second match with a broken arm. If that is not ballsy, I do not know what is.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
The funny thing is, Guo will probably cover for us if injure him, "naw, I'm good, ref." 'Fuck, that guy hits hard.'
Still, you gotta consider that he had a hard upbringing in the farmlands and fought against bandits, who I'm pretty sure hit to kill him, he's not a monastery wallflower. I have moee faith in him than that.
Tigranes in point here, the choice is between appearing a giant pussy but keeping our secrecy; and revealing our shit, but getting massive bro points with Guo and the crowd, pleasing the Frathouse with an exciting fight and getting the skill-ups.
 

Kayerts

Arcane
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
883
The worst that could happen, Kayerts, is not that you seriously hurt Guo Fu. The worst that could happen is that you kill the guy on the spot, because that is what your techniques do.


Yeah, that's a fringe case of seriously hurting him, which I didn't mention because it seems unlikely. Focusing on it changes the DISCUSS!ion from "How could this affect Guo Fu?" to a debate on the probability of killing him. Our bros are distracted by skill points here, so we don't want to make the weaker argument.

On the "how could this affect Guo Fu?" front, remember: we don't have to kill Guo Fu for A to go very badly for us. Say we just break a limb, similarly to what he did to us. That's fine, he'll understand and still congratulate us on our victory, but on the MiBs' next attack, maybe he can't protect his wife. Then things unfold as the masters predicted: farm boy goes berserk, MiBs foment outrage against "Zhang Jue's disciple," etc.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
Only he loses all claims to being Zer-Jay's disciple if we whoop his ass with Zee-Jay's techniques. Give him to Yandi, pull favors with the Frathouse to take him in and he's safe as can be. A makes him safer from WiBs.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Tigranes in point here, the choice is between appearing a giant pussy but keeping our secrecy; and revealing our shit, but getting massive bro points with Guo and the crowd, pleasing the Frathouse with an exciting fight and getting the skill-ups.
The thing is, though, even though this leaves A, I'm uneasy about it. It really does have the potential to fuck somebody up badly, either by going too hard on Guo Fu - which loses us the crowd, retrospectively after the big reveal would make us seem pretty ZJ-ish, and A could actually lose us the fight by disqualifying us. Jing's not an idiot but if he goes all out on a difficult opponent while his arm is broken and he is playing to win, accidents can happen. If we break his bones it's kind of churlish and ineffective to then say he broke our arm first. I think this would be the worst combination - we would lose all the crowd / pugilist goodwill, people like Xuzhan would be aghast, we would not have an opportunity to do a big reveal, we'd not accomplish any of our potential plans to its fruition.
:M
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Because it's not going to look like a premeditated clever plan. Seriously, we didn't taunt him, we didn't feign weakness, we didn't do any theatrics like we did in some of our previous fights. As far as the crowd is concerned theyre finally seeing MTP get serious. Then they will be disappointed. What do you expect, that MTP is going to get a mic and some Sherlock Holmes music to explain how he was just goading Guo Fu on UNTIL HE COULD STRIKE with the rules lawyer?

I'm not even going to respond to the fairness bit because I think everyone except you understands that's missing the point.

Look, if you want B to win you're barking up the wrong tree. You're not going to convince everyone to vote B because it will make everyonet hink Jing is ballsy and clever. If B wins it will be because people are persuaded that it's better to not reveal our techniques early, not risk injuring ourselves or Guo Fu, or to surrender.

edit: to clarify: I think B is pretty much guaranteed to make us look a dick and a pussy (at once!), A could go either way - a daring and bold fighter, or a vicious and dangerous fellow.
 

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
While Nevill's arguments have some merit, they also seem to reek of melodrama, as Tigranes pointed out. I think that Kipeci has the right of it: if A results in a loss, we'll lose by getting disqualified from the fight rather than through some freak accident that results in Fu's death. Fu is not going to die in our arms with Jing screaming "WHHHYYYYY?!?!?!?", ffs. Keep in mind that while we did kill a bandit by accident, we are actually rather accustomed to fighting against an opponent with extremely high END:

You go over to inspect the men that you had beaten. The first one has his nose entirely squashed, and from the way the entire front of his face is slightly caved in, even if he is not dead now he will not be waking in the next few days. The other man is not moving at all, blood trickling from his eyes, ears, nose and mouth. His eyes are blank and staring, and he doesn’t seem to be breathing.

“Well… it was an accident,” you say. You had spent a lot of time attacking the Southern Maniac with all of your strength, only for him to laugh it off. Evidently the bandits are not in the same league of durability as your master.

treave, do we have an idea of how resilient Fu is compared to our Master? Of course Zhang is way more experienced and has his own neigong, but Fu's natural sturdyness seems to be in the same neighbourhood as Zhang, which means that he's very, very tough to take out. He's not gonna die on us here.

And of course B will result in the crowd hating us because we look like a pussy. There's no doubt about that. I think Nevill missed my point with the boxing comparison: if I see a fighter getting his opponent disqualified when I know that he can continue, my first instinct isn't "Oh, what a clever fighter!" when I see that, it's "what a cowardly, dishonorable asshole". Nevill, you're not arguing in good faith on this point. We'll look like a pussy with B because then we're the guy who only cares about rules insofar as he can take advantage of them. That's not clever, it's douchey. There are benefits to B, but don't try and make it into us looking cool because we've deprived the crowd of an exciting fight, that's completly fucking ridiculous.

On the "how could this affect Guo Fu?" front, remember: we don't have to kill Guo Fu for A to go very badly for us. Say we just break a limb, similarly to what he did to us. That's fine, he'll understand and still congratulate us on our victory, but on the MiBs' next attack, maybe he can't protect his wife. Then things unfold as the masters predicted: farm boy goes berserk, MiBs foment outrage against "Zhang Jue's disciple," etc.

Good point, but we do have ways of mitigating this. If we're disqualified for hurting Guo Fu, we could just say that we meant to hurt him because we don't want anyone claiming that they're Zhang Jue's disciple but us. It's hard for the WiBs to paint Fu as Zhang's disciple if he's been beaten by some goof with a pig mask in the quarter-finals. Just doesn't seem believable, you know? Even if his arm is broken, it still takes a lot of the heat off him - they can't use him as a scapegoat if he doesn't look like the terrifying killer that everyone expects the Southern Maniac's apprentice to be.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Tigranes said:
Look, if you want B to win you're barking up the wrong tree.
I just do not understand the concept of honor some people seem to have.

It is akin to not reporting being robbed to the police because you are afraid people would think you were too much of a pussy not to handle the issue yourself. Guo Fu is the one at fault here, yet we are in the wrong if we point it out. Better to risk injuring him instead - Cao'er will fix him anyway.

Esquilax said:
While Nevill 's arguments have some merit, they also seem to reek of melodrama, as Tigranes pointed out.
I am entitled to enjoy my melodrama. :mad::P
 

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