[LP CYOA] 傳

[Baltika9]

I think it'somewhere in the vicinity of A2-10, B-2 and C-2.

 

[treave]

Kipeci - B>C
Smashing Axe - B>C
Nevill - A2
Lambchop19 - B>C
Azira - A2
asxetos - C
Zero Credibility - A2
XenomorphII - B
Ganymede - A2
Rex Feral - A2>A1>C>B
Ifeex - A2>A1>C
ScubaV - A2>C
Elfberserker - A2
Baltika9 - A2
Jester - A2
Kashmir Slippers - B

***

Current tally:

A2 - 10
B - 5
C - 1

 

[Tigranes]

Sigh. I'm even less confident B will do it, either. Seems like we already put ourselves between shit and shit, though of course we couldn't have known. I suppose I'll abstain...

 

[Nevill]

You want to force a city into a trade agreement in which one of the few things they have to offer is their plunder, which won't last forever. How much do you wan them to spare of it for us, bearing in mind that this same sort of army more or less will be raised when that runs out and they need to start raiding again?

You do realise that a single pouch of gold coins may cost more than what we have earned at the tournament, and these guys have chests full of this stuff? I don't think we need more of it that we can easily carry around, which isn't much. I suspect the rest to last them until we get the permission for them to settle on the mainland from Shun.

I'd rather prefer it if these guys had another of the Ten Swords, or something like that, though.

\Seems like we already put ourselves between shit and shit, though of course we couldn't have known.

I have a good feeling about this, if that can ease your mind! :D

 

[Grimgravy]

C
I'll vote to wait and see this time, safe in the knowledge that another choice is sure to win.

 

[Kipeci]

You do realise that a single pouch of gold coins may cost more than what we have earned at the tournament, and these guys have chests full of this stuff? I don't think we need more of it that we can easily carry around, which isn't much. I suspect the rest to last them until we get the permission for them to settle on the mainland from Shun.

Uh, where did you see any chests of gold coins? I checked over the update and I certainly didn't spy a pouch of the stuff, let alone fulls chests. Again, while they guys do have some amount of 'treasure' from the previous bums who were based on this island, we should not allow ourselves to let visions of pirates on the Spanish Main just after successfully raiding a galleon filled with precious metals become our idea of what sort of piracy is going on here. It's mostly subsistence stuff in trying to not die by grabbing things from people that are very often only marginally better off than the pirates-- richer folks have more lethal security-- and while they certainly could have accumulated a pretty penny from the many years of efforts from all the various pirates of the area concentrated here, I don't think it would gleam as brightly when it'd be needed to support a few hundred people for an indefinite future period if we could even get any merchants to do business with them. We don't know how long the current emperor will live, but from my experience in Crusader Kings II, the most useless of rulers tends to linger around for a long, long while even when one actively tries to get rid of them.

 

[Baltika9]

Not when said ruler has an "ambitious+genius" heir with a less than decent relationship.

Anyway, by that same logic, we're not getting a lot of treasure for them anyway since they don't have Khazarian Gold, which is a silly assumption since no one wanted to trade with them and 'treasure' isn't subsistence. But if you are correct, that just makes the Ninja Master's training all the more valuable.

 

[Kipeci]

Okay, so we negotiate for a peace... then what? If they don't have anything else that they can do, then they go right back to raiding. Where does that leave us, the master broker of the peace? Nevill was putting forth the idea that merchants could be forced to trade with them to keep them away from raiding for a pasttime, but I don't think they have the wealth to do that, and it wouldn't be a good idea under that strategy to get paid by them.

That said, they have offered to bribe us to convince the others into accepting a peace, so we can choose to take the money and backstab our nation to buy pirates some time to set up more traps and fortified positioning, certainly.

Edit: also, it's happened to me so many times that I get an heir with those traits and they die of something stupid way before dad, like being stabbed by 20,000 Abbasid dudes in the process of having a holy war over an insignificant desert county on a minor emir or succumbing to the measles.

 

[Baltika9]

If Nevill's 'best case scenario' doesn't pan out, I still prefer the Minamori pirates to control the region than any other band, for this simple reason:

They are more like armed robber-thieves, in that they try to keep things quiet and subdued, but if discovered and/or cornered they will resort to threats and violence to escape with their loot, so as not to get lynched - as mentioned in the update, xenophobia is a thing here, particularly in the rural areas. In that sense they are probably a lot less ruthless than the previous bands of marauders, more restrained, objectively they aren't remotely as brutal as the bandits on the mainland, and they certainly don't go about burning down women and molesting huts... but to say that they have never ever killed a single innocent in all of their raids might be too much to promise. Incidents do happen.

Putting that aside, there will certainly be those who have died, but would have survived if not for the pirates taking things like their food and medicine, for example. Their hands aren't squeaky clean. Their raids will have cost lives, one way or another.

They are the much better alternative to every single other pirate gang out there. Think of them like the Vito-era Corleones, they do crime but keep the streets clean of garbage like drugs, prostitution and exploitation of minors. I.e, the lesser evil by far. If this Coalition kills them, there will be a dozen gangs ready to take up their spot and things will just escalate from there. The orthodoxes won't be able to control every single last gang in the province, to say nothing of the whole eastern shore.
In any event, the solutions we come up here are temporary, because the best thing to do is reffer them to Shun, as per this:

Not publicly, but he'd appreciate having a group of well-armed and trained men he can call on. To that end he can pull some strings, if you manage or want to contact him. If you haven't been sitting idle for three years, he hasn't either. Let's just say ascending to the throne without laying any groundwork in politics and connections is horrendously retarded and your friend is anything but that.

Via the message post in Chang'an's garden. Or just tracking him down, wherever he is, it's about time the two lovers best friends for life got reunited.

 

[Kipeci]

Then the orthodox sects can take another boat out here and slaughter those new bands while we do something useful far, far away from this wretched island. I don't want us to be associated with this boondoggle any more than we have to, and coming to the negotiating table to argue lenience for these guys when you know that they have raided before and will continue to do so will just leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth. We have stuff to do elsewhere; if these guys continue to raid, which we know they will, it's not going to be long before this same sort of expedition is mounted to take them down. Then they'll be more fortified with more traps, and it will result in even more carnage before they eventually lose and other bandits writhe back into place. Peace won't come until the empire gets its shit together, but until then, we should quit wasting everyone's time and try to take these guys down now.

 

[Baltika9]

I disagree, the Minamori are here to survive. Give them a chance, and they will. They have already demonstrated their superiority in organization and tactics (FFS, the orthodoxes didn't even have a real plan, it was basically "hurr, we land at night, light stuffs on fire and pop some moles; didn't even bother to send a forward scout to the island, or keep their recruiting efforts somewhat low-key. 'tards, I tell you), I don't think they'll die if we contact Shun quickly enough. But again, that;s the worst case scenario and the only thing that will leave a bitter taste in my mouth is allowing both parties to walk into a massacre and leaving behind a hundred or so orphans of Japanese exiles to fend for themselves, because that would be kinda fucked up. I suppose we could send them to Master Zhang, but arranging that will be pretty difficult without money.

Besides, the Minamori are bros.

 

[Kipeci]

They are not our bros, they've been stealing from our people and causing great damage. They're not so sadistic about it, sure, but they're not our bros and we should not be sacrificing ourselves for a people that will turn out to be a collective Theseus if they see a benefit for that option. If they slaughter the low-level band of orthodox guys, that'll only serve to make them a more prestigious target for the guys who are actually competent to come in and mess them up to end their piracy. Those kids are still going to end up orphans, it'll just take longer and ultimately be more costly for everyone.

What I especially want to not do is to waste time contacting Shun over this ridiculous waste of time when we can be doing literally anything else. We don't even know if he could do anything even if we could somehow track him down and leave him a message in time, and they might represent more of a problem than they're worth against Shun's enemies given that their being under his command is a spark for conflict with Japan and discontentment among Chinese who don't want to see a bunch of foreign bandits rewarded for their crime with an actual position.

 

[Baltika9]

Not publicly, but he'd appreciate having a group of well-armed and trained men he can call on. To that end he can pull some strings, if you manage or want to contact him. If you haven't been sitting idle for three years, he hasn't either. Let's just say ascending to the throne without laying any groundwork in politics and connections is horrendously retarded and your friend is anything but that.

Only he totally can and will, under the table of course. He is the Crown Prince, and he;s not been sitting idle. I believe you missed the part where the leader describes the dire state of his people, "we raid because we absoltuely must. Otherwise we die." It's all well and good to speak of morality, but when your back is up against the wall and the stomachs of the families you are responsible for are rumbling with hunger, well, what the fuck else do you do?
Don't compare them to Theseus, these people are despereate and even then, the damage they caused is minuscule compared to all the other gangs. Like I said, lesser of two evils by far.

 

[Kipeci]

Only he totally can and will, under the table of course. He is the Crown Prince, and he;s not been sitting idle.

Under the table, where nothing can ever come back up to bite one later. There are consequences to decisions, and if it works out to that point, we will have to face it one day. I don't think it's worth it, personally.

I believe you missed the part where the leader describes the dire state of his people, "we raid because we absoltuely must. Otherwise we die." It's all well and good to speak of morality, but when your back is up against the wall and the stomachs of the families you are responsible for are rumbling with hunger, well, what the fuck else do you do?

Use the pirate treasure and loot to hire some security for going inland? Ah, but they've 'grown comfortable' on the island, so that's enough of that. It sucks to be them, but this country has laws and they shouldn't be bent for bandits who just have a better story than most-- at the very least, a better story when coming straight from the mouth of their skilled and wily leader as he attempts to convince an enemy into helping him.

 

[Nevill]

They're not so sadistic about it, sure, but they're not our bros and we should not be sacrificing ourselves for a people that will turn out to be a collective Theseus if they see a benefit for that option.

Big words when you consider that the only befefit they've been willing to fight for so far is 'not to die of starvation'. How treacherous of them!

It sucks to be them, but this country has laws and they shouldn't be bent for bandits who just have a better story than most-- at the very least, a better story when coming straight from the mouth of their skilled and wily leader as he attempts to convince an enemy into helping him.

Enforcing the law will exact much greater toll that removing the cause that forced these people to break it and have them compensate for the damages. Really, this rigid thinking is what I would expect to tear the Empire apart.

 

[Baltika9]

Use the pirate treasure and loot to hire some security for going inland? Ah, but they've 'grown comfortable' on the island, so that's enough of that. It sucks to be them, but this country has laws and they shouldn't be bent for bandits who just have a better story than most-- at the very least, a better story when coming straight from the mouth of their skilled and wily leader as he attempts to convince an enemy into helping him.

Only nobody wants them on the mainland, they barely received this island. Xenopobia an' shit.

 

[Kipeci]

They're not bad for it. I don't think Theseus was that bad; if I recall correctly (granted this was kinda a long time ago), he was acting to the best of his judgement, though unfortunately his judgement wasn't particularly great. Nevertheless, a betrayal is a betrayal and that's what we're going to get here, even if it's one that's kind of forced on their end. Let's not set ourselves up for that and be honest from the getgo.

 

[Baltika9]

And what kind of betrayal do you expect? Selling us out to authorities, giving us up to Huehueshan, selling our head for gold?

 

[Kipeci]

Only nobody wants them on the mainland, they barely received this island. Xenopobia an' shit.

That's why no village would trade with them, but there is still much land to be tended to in China if they're willing and able to go far enough inland. Regardless of what people think about them, they would at least be able to grow their own food that way. But they've settled in and they don't want to move by this point, so good luck forcing them out. Note that they listed the only obstacles they listed to this method were 'bandits' and 'why bother moving out again', not xenophobia.

And what kind of betrayal do you expect? Selling us out to authorities, giving us up to Huehueshan, selling our head for gold?

Going straight back to raiding after we've brokered a peace with understandably poor results for ourself? What else do you think I've been talking about?

 

[Baltika9]

Like I said previously, that's the worst case scenario and, even then, something only temporary. I consider it worth the effort to save these people, so that we may call on them at a later time. The leader is a bright fellow, talented and with a host of well-trained and competent retainers; in other words, should they survive, they're going places.

 

[Kipeci]

Worst case scenario? In what scenario do they not have to go right back to raiding, bringing the same troubles back on themselves while we're off wasting away our precious time tracking down the prince when we could be doing something of value? What is temporary about us publicly vouching for the good of these guys who turn to the same tricks as before right afterwards, what's temporary about the plight of the commoners who will suffer for the rest of their lives from these damages that these foreign bandits inflict just because they have a pretty story? All so that you can call on a couple of dozen men way off in the future if they don't consider their debt to have been paid with the bribe that they're going to give us.

That's nice and all, but if we're going to be taking a substantial rep hit in addition to blowing away time that could be spent ensuring that the WiB don't slip away or any number of other things we need to be doing ASAP I want something more concrete to be argued for it than 'well we could call these dudes up later probably'.

 

[Baltika9]

Spending extra time? When and where? This takes the same amount of time the assault would.

Worst case scenario? In what scenario do they not have to go right back to raiding, bringing the same troubles back on themselves while we're off wasting away our precious time tracking down the prince when we could be doing something of value? What is temporary about us publicly vouching for the good of these guys who turn to the same tricks as before right afterwards, what's temporary about the plight of the commoners who will suffer for the rest of their lives from these damages that these foreign bandits inflict just because they have a pretty story? All so that you can call on a couple of dozen men way off in the future if they don't consider their debt to have been paid with the bribe that they're going to give us.

Nothing is stopping them from going back to robbery, but I doubt they will do it considering that the pugilists just showed them they are willing to fight back, that will keep them in line if nothing else will. For all they know, the orthodoxes can gather up more people and execute a better planned attack in the future.

Personally, I think if we give them an opportunity to make an honest living, they'll take it. Like Miss Zhou said, and treave confirmed, they are raiding for life necessities, not luxury. Their circumstances are anything but luxurious.

 

[Kipeci]

Spending extra time? When and where? This takes the same amount of time the assault would.

Not when you want to go tracking down Shun, it doesn't.

Nothing is stopping them from going back to robbery, but I doubt they will do it considering that the pugilists just showed them they are willing to fight back, if nothing else. Personally, I think if we give them an opportunity to make an honest living, they'll take it. Like Miss Zhou said, and treave confirmed, they are raiding for life necessities, not luxury. Their circumstances are anything but luxurious.

What opportunity to make an honest living? You can't be public with the offer about service to the emperor during negotiations, and nothing else has been presented as something else for these guys to legitimately do should we go with negotiations other than forcing the city to trade with them, which will only last for so long. You haven't named any alternatives other than hooking them up with Shun, but don't you think it'll be a little bit suspicious when we mutter something about connections and have to disappear for a long while to have a chance at contact with the emperor's son? During which time they will not have any sort of income or added food from any legitimate source, forcing them to resort back to raiding again?

I need to go to sleep so that I can register for some stuff tomorrow, but I ask that you please consider my words. I know that the A2 bandwagon is almost certain to win, but I want to say now that I protest it bitterly. I don't care if C wins or B, I'd be up for anything just so long as there's not a negotiation here, least of all the one in which we've taken a 'hostage'.

 

[Baltika9]

How about settling for trade negotiations through the pugilists, all they need is food and medicine and the Zhou family are a pretty reputable sort. People will listen to them, or at least use them as a proxy and they won't really give a damn about Japan because they're not involved with them, at all.

 

[Nevill]

During which time they will not have any sort of income or added food from any legitimate source, forcing them to resort back to raiding again?

That depends on how long their money would last them. I expect it to last enough for them not to resort to underhanded tactics again until we can arrange for a permanent solution. We'll probably be contacting Shun before the Zoro challenge takes place. Half a year is not that big of a deal.
They can also decide to buy supplies ang go deeper into the mainland in search of a place to settle, as they first intended. The lack of suppies is the only thing stopping them.

How about settling for trade negotiations through the pugilists, all they need is food and medicine and the Zhou family are a pretty reputable sort.

I'd say that Yuhua Hall is a better bet as a mediator. The pugilists wouldn't want to associate with them, but the prostitutes will not care all that much.