[LP CYOA] 傳

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

edit:

Emmm i may be wrong but didn't he was talking about village they build on island? I mean i would be quite pissed if i would build home and made field and was asked to vacant it.

Would you also be pissed if you built a home, were robbed, and then, when caught, the robber asked permission to continue robbing you because he needs to feed his loved ones?

They are getting comfortable there because they are robbing others of their possessions. Hence, they are getting comfortable as pirates.

Lambchop19, answer me this, please.

What were his alternatives? There is no food to feed his people. They can't grow it on the island, they can't settle on the mainland, they can't trade.

Can't, can't, can't. Trading can be accomplished with a middleman. The island is big enough to plan ambush points, have a forest with trees to jump around and hide in, have it's own cave system, but NOTHING will grow there? They are willing to fight people and steal from them, but not willing to move inland and squat somewhere for a time before moving on? They can use some of their pirate money - and they must have a decent amount by now - (and/or sell their boats to locals) to buy supplies through middlemen along the way. Very little is truly impossible...until we say the word "can't", then magically all solutions disappear.

He truly believes there is no other way, I get that. But he's still too complacent about the situation for my liking. The immediate threat to his people IS their piracy and he's sitting there defending CONTINUING it. If he gave his reasons as to why and then wanted us to negotiate a peaceful solution for them to STOP their piracy and live on the mainland, then I'd be more on his side. However, he was adamant about his people continuing to pirate regardless of what happens here. That's just stupid and doesn't take into account the needs of the people he is stealing from or the lives that are bound to be lost in his raids.

edit:

Actually, now that I think about it, they should have left money in the villages they had raided, forcing the 'trade'. Don't know if it would help matters or not, but at least it would have made it possible to spin their story in the right direction.

this

 

[treave]

Just going to clear this up: he has no reason to think you can offer a permanent solution. He only requested you attempt to turn away your fellow pugilists. A long term solution is political in nature. As far as he knows you have nothing to offer on that front, so why would it even cross his mind to ask? If you were some sympathetic government bigwig, rest assured he'd be asking for a different sort of help.

 

[Nevill]

The island is big enough to plan ambush points, have a forest with trees to jump around and hide in, have it's own cave system, but NOTHING will grow there?

Pretty sure this is possible. Trees can survive where the cultivated plants can not. The island may be unsuitable for farming and have a forest at the same time. Futhermore, rooting up the trees to increase acreage is a work that may take years.

By the way, treave, how long have they been here?

They are willing to fight people and steal from them, but not willing to move inland and squat somewhere for a time before moving on?

Where would 200 people squat? What would they eat during the trip? Where is the guarantee they will find a place they are searching for before their money and the supplies run out?

It is easy for one person to travel, but to move a whole settlement around requires a lot of resourses they do not have.

As for the trade through the middleman... well, you'll have to ask treave. I am running out of excuses. I am pretty sure have got an impression he wrote the situation in a way to show that these people are not doing what they are doing out of their natural predisposition to piracy.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

The island is big enough to plan ambush points, have a forest with trees to jump around and hide in, have it's own cave system, but NOTHING will grow there?

Pretty sure this is possible. Trees can survive where the cultivated plants can not. The island may be unsuitable for farming and have a forest at the same time. Futhermore, rooting up the trees to increase acreage is a work that may take years.

Fair enough. I know little about agriculture, so I'll take your word for it. My other points still stand.

Where would 200 people squat? What would they eat during the trip? Where is the guarantee they will find a place they are searching for before their money and the supplies run out?

Anywhere they can, they can buy food through random middlemen - anyone will do, break 'em in with a few small trades and then start using them for larger ones - while making sure to show off your ninja skillz so they know not to cheat you. Also, in life there are no guarantees, but it's not like they have a guarantee that piracy won't get them killed either - see current situation.

As for the trade through the middleman... well, you'll have to ask treave. I am running out of excuses. I am pretty sure he wrote the situation in a way to show that these people are not doing what they are doing out of their natural predisposition to piracy.

That is the trouble with arguing over fiction, Nevill. It's all up to treave in the end.

That'd be semi-bro, treave. However, as Nevill said, he still could have left them with money and forced trades. He is not honorabru!

 

[treave]

They've been here about three years. As for farming, the first thing to remember is that they aren't agriculture experts, and that the island's soil might not be suitable for growing edible crops, not to mention fresh water is a somewhat limited resource.

With regards to trading, I'll draw your attention again to this part:

None of the villages will take us in – we have tried, and failed, to even trade with them, before resorting to raids. I am afraid foreigners are not very welcomed here. The city’s market is different, but no less useless to us – there are powerful merchants linked to the prefect that have barred us from trading.

The village merchants won't deal with them. The city merchants have embargoed any trade where they are involved. Hiring random agents to purchase enough living essentials for more than two hundred people regularly, and not get found out? I don't think that is too feasible. Furthermore, you run into the matter of finding people being willing to act as their agents. Saying that they'll be paid is all fine and well, but when you weigh the paltry amount they can pay against the risk of being blacklisted by the merchant clans or arrested by the prefect for collaboration with pirates, you won't find any takers. Next, you have to consider - if they are using their money reserves to buy food, what happens when they run out? Considering that they are mainly taking essentials and not targeting money (because they have little use for it), what they can spend on is limited. Buying food forever is not an option. They're not going to magically generate cash out of thin air, and you would be raising much the same argument if they were robbing people to trade money for food via some middleman anyway. The issue here is that they are not able to earn a proper livelihood in symbiosis with their neighbours, and have not found a place where they can be self-sufficient either.

Did he have other options, and could he have planned it out better? Maybe, but hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Anabanana]

Trading can be accomplished with a middleman.

Trying to find a middleman won't work for the same reason that people won't trade with them in the first place. How are you supposed to find somebody to trade for you if they're not willing to talk to you in the first place? What kind of middleman did you have in mind? As far as they know, they've made attempts to trade but everyone refused because OMG FOREIGN DEVILS. The racist assholes aren't going to be any less racist just because you're approaching them to find a middleman instead of trade. I guess they could try passing themselves off as Han...? But then there's the problem of their accents.

The island is big enough to plan ambush points, have a forest with trees to jump around and hide in, have it's own cave system, but NOTHING will grow there? They are willing to fight people and steal from them, but not willing to move inland and squat somewhere for a time before moving on? They can use some of their pirate money - and they must have a decent amount by now - to buy supplies through middlemen along the way. Very little is truly impossible...until we say the word "can't", then magically all solutions disappear.

Uh, just because it has a forest doesn't mean it's fertile enough for crops. Instead of overanalyzing this, I think we can take them at face value when they say "we tried to farm, over and over again, but it's not working out". They're not moving inland because (1) they have no idea where to go, and (2) they don't have the supplies. And besides, continuing to argue about the details seems counterproductive. You can go on and on forever about all the possibilities Perhaps they could fish, harvest seaweed, forge their own weapons, and plant herbs to make their own medical supplies. Perhaps they could rob people for supplies along the way, but again, on the road and in unknown territory, they would be much more vulnerable to counterattacks, as opposed to this island which they've already trapped and made into a decent defensive fortress. Perhaps Yoshimitsu should've tried to make contact with government bigwigs to try and forge a permanent solution. There's nothing to indicate that they can't. But we can go on forever trying to find ways that Yoshimitsu could pursue instead of piracy, and treave would just throw up explanation after explanation as to why it's not feasible. (EDIT: Like what he just posted.)

The general gist in terms of narrative that we need to get is this: they got thrust into a hard situation because of various factors outside of their control, and even though they've tried their best to survive through means such as farming and trading, it's not working out for them.

 

[Nevill]

The village merchants won't deal with them. The city merchants have embargoed any trade where they are involved. Hiring random agents to purchase enough living essentials for more than two hundred people regularly, and not get found out?

Why would they care about being found out? If they had traded for food, they would have no need to become pirates in the first place, wouldn't they?

Well, the city merchants would not sell to the middlemen once word would get out, obviously, but why would the villagers think twice about dealing with another Chinese, no matter who might want to buy from him? As long as they are are not dealing with the foreigners directly, the peasants should have been fine with the arrangement.

But, eh, it is what it is, I suppose. It would change little, though the fact that they have some money to spare and still chose to pirate irks me somewhat, too.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Given the presence of black markets and illegal trades in cities even today + Nevill's reasons above, I highly doubt it would be that impossibru for them, treave. But as you is the cowboy in this here rodeo, I will differ to your judgement.

Given that it is now confirmed that it is an impossible situation for him, I don't view the pirate leader that poorly anymore.

However, I still think we should kill him as it is the most expedient solution. Plus I really want to see Jing sigh, look over at him, and then proceed to literally rip his head off using his mad claws technique, so my vote stands.

 

[treave]

You're assuming the black market isn't run by the same people.

It's not an impossible situation for him, but it isn't something he was really equipped to handle either. They came expecting honourable treatment from the Court.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

In every nearby city? Impressive.

 

[treave]

Why would they care about being found out? If they had traded for food, they would have no need to become pirates in the first place, wouldn't they?

Well, the city merchants would not sell to the middlemen once word would get out, obviously, but why would the villagers think twice about dealing with another Chinese, no matter who might want to buy from him? As long as they are are not dealing with the foreigners directly, the peasants should have been fine with the arrangement.

But, eh, it is what it is, I suppose. It would change little, though the fact that they have some money to spare and still chose to pirate irks me somewhat, too.

Trade with what, that's the question. They aren't exactly swimming in money, and have no way to obtain more.

 

[Nevill]

However, I still think we should kill him as it is the most expedient solution.

Depends on what you try to achieve, I suppose.

Help him with his predicament, and he will never trouble anyone ever again, and he might be of great help should the need arrive. If crime prevention is higher on your list of priorities than serving 'justice', killing him is a waste. It is much better to have him keeping his people in check, and honorbound to your cause.

But this matter is pretty very slippery, so I'll pass on arguing.

 

[treave]

In every nearby city? Impressive.

How far do you think they can travel to buy perishables?

 

[Nevill]

Trade with what, that's the question. They aren't exactly swimming in money, and have no way to obtain more.

They have something they want to pay us, right? As long as they have something that can be accepted as payment, they are not truly out of options.

It isn't a long-term solution by any means, but it does not sit well with me that they haven't exhausted that option completely before resorting to the raids.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

In every nearby city? Impressive.

How far do you think they can travel to buy perishables?

The same distance they travel to steal them? They have boats, yes?

It IS a rough situation for him. Alternative: sell all his able bodied people as slaves, use the money to provide shelter for the disabled, elderly, and children. jk

 

[treave]

They have something they want to pay us, right? As long as they have something that can be accepted as payment, they are not truly out of options.

It isn't a long-term solution by any means, but it does not sit well with me that they haven't exhausted that option completely before resorting to the raids.

If that's the case, then we return to the issue of finding someone willing to be a middleman. Of course, perhaps they just didn't look hard enough.

The same distance they travel to steal them? They have boats, yes?

It IS a rough situation for him. Alternative: sell all his able bodied people as slaves, use the money to provide shelter for the disabled, elderly, and children. jk

Not very far, then. Notice that this is a local problem. They aren't exactly marauding up and down the entire eastern coast.

 

[Anabanana]

If that's the case, then we return to the issue of finding someone willing to be a middleman. Of course, perhaps they just didn't look hard enough.

Aha! And therefore they deserve to get slaughtered, yes? Because they didn't try hard enough.

I don't think the point is argue that they were put in a totally impossible situation, and therefore should be resolved of all culpability, nor that there aren't things that they perhaps could've done better. But as treave said, hindsight is 20/20, and perhaps they technically could've pursued those options others have brought up here if they knew about them and had the capability/know-how to follow up on those options, but that seems to me to be completely missing the point? Like, you want to make this interesting moral choice into a black-and-white "oh, they're totally evil and we should just smite them" or a "oh, they're completely innocent and their actions are totally justified" scenario. The point is that they think they did their best given their knowledge, resources, and tough circumstances, and it's clear that they're reasonable people who would prefer to live peacefully instead of raid and pillage if they found a way to do it. Doesn't change the fact that they HAVE been raiding and pillaging, and that's the stance that Zhou's taken. Their hands aren't completely clean here. But does that mean they should all die for it?

Regardless of what you think of their efforts to survive - and they HAVE been making efforts - the morally responsible thing to do should be trying to find a sustainable solution, not allowing more people to die here, whether directly as a result of this immediate fight, or indirectly due to lack of supplies or people bringing in reinforcements or revenge kills down the line. If that's your goal, B seems to be the only real option.

The arguments against B shouldn't be focusing on whether or not it's the right thing to do, morality-wise, or our reputation, because we'll obviously become known as a total badass for this, but more on the fact that there is a stronger likelihood that we will get injured or die. Even if we survive, this might delay our Shun mission, which in turn gives us less time to fulfill Zhang's quest, and let me remind you that the meeting with the fire cult is in less than six months for now, yes? Because of our horrible luck, we have to heal slowly on our own like a normal human being, so we reaaaally don't have the time to fuck around like this. Making a name for ourselves is fine and all, but we're already going to be doing that when we go around kicking orthodox butt anyway.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

Mostly true.

As I've said, I don't think the guy is that bad anymore. I also still don't care enough about him or his people not to kill him and I don't believe Zhou will kill the women and children. I think that if we leave them on their own, Zhou might die or for some reason be unable or unwilling to reign in his forces before they take bloody revenge for the losses they will no doubt take so long as the pirates morale remains high. For me, D is still the preferred option. They are pirates. They broke the law and hurt others to help themselves. They should pay, but their families shouldn't and D is the only path that can achieve that.

Again though, B is a lock, so who cares...

 

[Baltika9]

treave, two questions: how good looking is Miss Zhou and how long until the next update, considering your busy schedule?

Not sure. I won't be around for a week starting Tuesday so I'd like to finish up this pirate business before then. I might have an update out sometime in the next 12 hours, though votes aren't closed yet.

Any minute now.

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

If this all blows up in our faces, I'm going to do a little dance singing I told you so...

...and if this doesn't blow up in our faces, I'm still going to do a dance and sing cuz I strut my stuff like that.

 

[Anabanana]

Everyone's gonna die and it's all our fault.

But yeah, voting for B is pretty much the equivalent of shoving your face into a barrel of gunpowder and then lighting the fuse. It's not too late to switch to A, everybody!

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

It's at least a pretty epic barrel tho. Should be interesting... :D

 

[Baltika9]

'Sall Azira's fault. Always Azira's fault.

 

[Nevill]

We all know who is at fault.

And don't you dare to delay the update any further by proposing a vote switch, you hear me? :D

 

[a cut of domestic sheep prime]

D: No delays. Give us our update. Gruesome details and all. I hope it works, but I will prepare my face for palmage...