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kazgar

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Upside Down
With Zhang Jue as our Master, I don't think we'll be missing out on STR techniques. He is supposed to pay us a visit soon, and he's been wrestling with oni demons in Japan, I'm pretty sure he can share some +STR stuff. Dude, raw talent is cool, but without the skills it's kinda worthless. If we were good enough to get to level 5 from just sparring with Yang Xue for a week, imagine what a month or two of actually training under the man will do for us and our skills.

Lulz, training with a energy eating madman who's possibly gonna rip our other arm off at a whim or stop giving a shit because of a gloworm or he smells some clothing that the emperor wore in the tunnels above.

What next, diplomacy?
 

Baltika9

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He does kinda need us combat effective to be his spear against the jianghu, so I doubt he'll be taking our second arm. Orthodox sects charge money, Master Zhang charges lulz, this guy charges some human meat.

treave, can we at least try to work on our Shouwang and Chuzan, along with our kicks, in B1?
 

Kipeci

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Messages
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Location
Vicksburg
With Zhang Jue as our Master, I don't think we'll be missing out on STR techniques. He is supposed to pay us a visit soon, and he's been wrestling with oni demons in Japan, I'm pretty sure he can share some +STR stuff. Dude, raw talent is cool, but without the skills it's kinda worthless. If we were good enough to get to level 5 from just sparring with Yang Xue for a week, imagine what a month or two of actually training under the man will do for us and our skills.
You're not reading what I'm writing. I don't want techniques that give us strength, I want to maximize our natural strength stat. A2 harms our natural strength, and I won't go for A1 for reasons I outlined earlier. This leaves only the B choices, and of those B1 seems to be the least stupid.
 

Baltika9

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Well, I can only hope that we can mount an expedition in here with Master Zhang later down the line, he should be amused to meet Yang Xue. With him being our Master, I doubt Shun will have problems with him on his property so long as we keep it quiet. Maybe he'll even give the Imperial Guard some pointers afterwards, if the visit amuses him.
 

Esquilax

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Messages
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Well, I can only hope that we can mount an expedition in here with Master Zhang later down the line, he should be amused to meet Yang Xue. With him being our Master, I doubt Shun will have problems with him on his property so long as we keep it quiet. Maybe he'll even give the Imperial Guard some pointers afterwards, if the visit amuses him.

I don't think that Master Zhang knows the meaning of keeping it quiet. :lol: It's okay, he's a martial arts genius, not a stealth genius - besides, just because our buddy Shun is the Emperor doesn't mean he has the right to order LORD ZHANG around.
 

Baltika9

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I would never dare suggest such a thing, heavens no, I just think that, should the Emperor provide sufficient amusement and prove himself worthy, Master Zhang might consider sharing some of wisdom and kindness with him.
 

Smashing Axe

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Messages
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Divinity: Original Sin
You guys who ask what would Zhang Jue do, I think you know the answer in this case.

He'd rip off Qilin's arm without a moment of hesitation.
 

Baltika9

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No, he would sit down with Yang Xue for a civil chat over some tea and exchange tips on poetry and martial arts. Sadly, we are not His Divine Majesty, Lord Zhang Jue and we cannot do the things he can.
 

Esquilax

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You guys who ask what would Zhang Jue do, I think you know the answer in this case.

He'd rip off Qilin's arm without a moment of hesitation.

I think you mean, Zhang would probably rip off Yang's arm without a moment of hesitation. Or at least, he'd try to - Yang is a very dangerous man.

Zhang is a bad motherfucker and brutal as hell, but betrayal isn't really his thing. He doesn't give a fuck if he has to kill, 1, 10, or a 1,000 people, but he doesn't strike me as the sort who would sell somebody out. I mean, he did help the hopelessly overmatched Minamoto Clan regain power over Japan pretty much single-handedly on a fucking whim. I'm not somehow now suggesting that this makes Zhang a nice guy all of a sudden (that's why we love him), just evaluating the character as I see it.

Now, if it were someone a bit colder, with Tulu Huodu's personality, I suppose I could see that (assuming of course that he and Qilin weren't related).
 

Nevill

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
On another front, A2 pretty much guarantees Qilin's safety and doesn't have us wrestling with YX for the dwindling supply of rats, aimlessly wandering around the caves in search of an exit that is probably not there. The only viable alternative here is B2, take a dive and hope our skills are good enough to make it through.
Based on this:
So, how does Jing estimate his chances to hold up in B1? How bad was the food situation for a week we've been doing this?

Is making a small fishing net or a fishing rod out of Wudu silk strings too much to ask?

You're still getting a couple of rats every day. Not as much as you'd like, but if the situation doesn't change (assuming you don't get any better at grabbing rats from the old man) you could probably survive for a few more weeks before you start needing something more nutritious.
And this:
I don't see why we can't make a net with that silk stuff and catch fish or rats or something. Maybe make a trap to catch and eat our cannibal friend too.
That's B1. You know, the 'let's find a way to continue surviving instead of trying for an immediate escape via other means' choice?
And this (though this one meta as hell):
treave, can we at least try to work on our Shouwang and Chuzan, along with our kicks, in B1?

You don't have the time to improve that many techniques unless you're planning on staying for two, three months.

I assume that we can hold out for a month, and that is when the help will arrive, or we find a way out by ourselves.

I am not braving the river until somebody explains to me why this path wasn't blocked during the construction of the prison to prevent escapes by people who were meant to disappear forever (and no, they didn't always kill them, as we've seen).

I am still on B1.
 

RealDDc

Learned
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Nov 18, 2013
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Germany
Why should we freely cap our limits by giving away an arm for technics? The raw stats and the loss in strenght doesn't bother me mutch, it is quite obvious that techniques and skills can make up quite well for the poorest stats. But we limit Jings potential pretty mutch with the loss of an arm.

The fraction pro trade arm for techniques pretty mutch messures the loss of an arm in just a couple of raw strenght points, but just imagine how the loss of an arm would influence and hinder daily activity in real. Yet the loss on an arm in this fantasy world, where people climb around all day and perform multiple tasks in the blink of an eye. Cut with the sword on the one hand parry an incoming kick with the other arm while performing a kick in the same time as he is just about to lift up into mid air. The loss of a limb comes mutch and mutch more expensive than just a few raw strenght points.

Just remember how many times Jing had to rely on both his hands to avoid critical situations. Even if it is just to catch a fellow team member from falling into the depth, to push one out of line of fire, to block an incoming attack or to actively use both hands to attack.

Hell it does even matter if fingers are missing. The motions actively use all parts of an arm, we may not be at the point yet, but we could learn technices to actively fight with the fingers consecutively strike with the palm the same time we strike with the ellbow and block with the shoulder. And we trade a whole arm for techniques? In a gamble, we don't even know if and what we'll get trained?

We would give up mutch more than just a few strenght points. And there will be plenty more time and situations we'll be able to train and gain ablities. It is not like we are giving up the ever and only chance to train powerful techniques there.

Not only is that deal a gamble, but the price is unreasonable.

Edit: I do not know the current vote situation, just want to make sure we do not give away that arm so carelessly.
 

Baltika9

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I am not braving the river until somebody explains to me why this path wasn't blocked during the construction of the prison to prevent escapes by people who were meant to disappear forever (and no, they didn't always kill them, as we've seen).
Because this is a natural cave that hasn't been fully mapped out by the Imperial Guards or the Secret Police, with many nooks and crannies that even they don't know of. I sincerely doubt they traced every single stream and river in this cave to their origins to block them off. The only one with complete knowledge of the place would be YX, and I doubt he'd be sharing with them. :lol:
 

Nevill

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
How'd they block the river to build whatever it is that blocks the river?
By placing a big metal bars somewhere where it passes through a shallow space.

Why do you even construct a prison on top of the river if people can escape that way?

They chose this place for building, they know about it (the torches are there), why would they do that if it was a viable escape route?

If they didn't block it, it does not lead anywhere.

Because this is a natural cave that hasn't been fully mapped out by the Imperial Guards or the Secret Police, with many nooks and crannies that even they don't know of.
The cavern we are inhabiting is at the end of the tunnel. The cavern is hand-made (judging by its shape) and adorned with torches. The tunnel leads straight to the river. How blatant can it get?

They had to know about the river.

Do you ever see an architect that leaves a tunnel in a prison cell on a basis that he does not know where it leads? He will either seal the tunnel, or, if he can't, he won't place a prison cell there in the first place.
 
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RealDDc

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Location
Germany
Why do you even construct a prison on top of the river if people can escape that way?
Just recently a good part of the dungeon collapsed. The original concept for sure had all possible escape routes covered and locked, but the elements work their ways through the caverns over the decades. It is not like frequently a service crew checks the situation for ramshackle. Stone breaks appart bit by bit and simple metal corrodes.
 

Nevill

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Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Just recently a good part of the dungeon collapsed. The original concept for sure had all possible escape routes covered and locked, but the elements work their ways through the caverns over the decades. It is not like frequently a service crew checks the situation for ramshackle. Stone breaks appart bit by bit and simple metal corrodes.
Sure, I could buy that. Except for this part:
Your jump takes you across the stream [...] The tunnel ends up being a long and winding path. Here and there you hear scuttling rats, but they do not appear in front of you.

Finally, just as you were getting tired of the trek, you reach the end of the tunnel; it opens out into a large, circular chamber.
There is a tunnel there. As far as I know, tunnels are created by digging, not by collapsing the structure, and there are no elements here to make that long of a tunnel. How do you even explain it by 'natural causes', unless there is a giant mole living nearby that somehow messed the building plans?

The tunnel was there, and the river was there when they started imprisoning people. It certainly was there when Yang was confined here. We are not talking about a crack in a wall or in a ceiling as a possible escape route - those may appean on accident. The tunnel and the river can not.
 
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Fangshi

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Jan 9, 2014
Messages
1,997
Nevill said:
The cavern we are inhabiting is at the end of the tunnel. The cavern is hand-made (judging by its shape) and adorned with torches. The tunnel leads straight to the river. How blatant can it get?

They had to know about the river.

Simplest explanation is that they don't think anyone will actually escape the chamber. There are a few things we simply do not know, how often is the pit used for example which would tell us if it is even used as a proper prison. Based on the description found in the update it sounds like they just tie their victim to a boulder and drop them down the hole. I imagine they also torture them quite severely to ensure they are weakened similar to Yang. Now it is possible that Yang is the only individual to actually escape his chains and he refuses to leave because he wants a shot at the Emperor and is completely insane. If it is a punishment that is rarely used, then it would also make sense not to waste a bunch of resources building an actual prison. After all if the upper tunnels were not completely secure (as evidenced by Yang's ability to move freely through them) then it makes sense that the lower tunnels would not necessarily be secure either, they do not have to be. For anyone with less ability or will than Yang it would be a death sentence, and once Yang got loose he would simply devour any other prisoners that fell down there.

Now there are still plenty of ways B2 could screw us but I really doubt that a man made grate is one of them.
 

Nevill

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Fangshi said:
Based on the description found in the update it sounds like they just tie their victim to a boulder and drop them down the hole.
Usually, maybe. But why would there be torches down there? It suggests that a place is visited from time to time. Why do it if no one alive is supposed to be there?

Fangshi said:
After all if the upper tunnels were not completely secure (as evidenced by Yang's ability to move freely through them) then it makes sense that the lower tunnels would not necessarily be secure either, they do not have to be.
That can, actually, be explained by RealDDc's reasonings.

Fangshi said:
Now there are still plenty of ways B2 could screw us but I really doubt that a man made grate is one of them.
Why would there be a grate if, for example, the stream was mapped during the construction and it does not lead anywhere?
 
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Fangshi

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Nevill said:
Usually, maybe. But why there would be torches down there? It suggests that a place is visited from time to time. Why do it if no one alive is supposed to be there?

Don't know, we would be speculating on the motives of people we know nothing about.
My guess would be that the same sort of people that would torture a couple and drop them down a hole to die may also like watching them die. The torches would let the audience watch the show.

Nevill said:
That can, actually, be explained by RealDDc's reasonings.

My understanding was that he was refering to the recent collapse, the attacks go back years so it does not quite cover it I think (Could be wrong, I would need to check if multiple collapses have taken place).

Nevill said:
Why would there be a grate if, for example, the stream was mapped during the construction and it does not lead anywhere?

I meant in cases where the stream actually leads outside they would need to block it. Can't use a solid object since the river is still flowing so it would have to be some sort of grate or strainer. Now it is certainly possible that the river does not lead to an exit. Only way to know that though is to jump in. It would get us away from the crazy cannibal though and maybe we will run into a friendly water dragon or something... ;)
 
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Well, this incident aside, I think the situation has not changed for me to reconsider my vote. No fucking way am I for crippling ourself or Qilin and fuck anything this guy can or can't teach us. What the... if we want to learn that badly, why not take another look at those manuals on the walls instead? We seem to be stuck here and we already learned the kicking technique, so... bat claws? As for B2, it's pure gamble and I don't like the odds. Jumping into an unknown underground stream and hoping we find some air on the other side and not get our head smashed in the dark. There is zero reason to believe this river comes out anywhere (either outside or to another tunnel) for kilometres apart from "well, treave probably wouldn't kill us like that". I'd rather go explore those endless passages or climb the hole we fell into first. B1 - survive and continue searching for a way out. There obviously is (or was) a way out. How the fuck did he get up there if there wasn't?

And I can't help but wonder, how did he find the way out only just as the Emperor was moved? Or did he find the way sooner, only to wait in ambush there for years for the Emperor to show up? I suppose he is nuts enough for that. And then apparently he forgot about the way out or it was destroyed somehow? Shit, I knew our luck was bad, but this takes it to a whole new level.
 

Nevill

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
My understanding was that he was refering to the recent collapse, the attacks go back years so it does not quite cover it I think (Could be wrong, I would need to check if multiple collapses have taken place).
He suggested the general idea that a once secure place may be falling apart through centuries of use. A recent collapse is just an example, an earthquake can do just that, too, and time would gradually do it as well. It can explain insecurities that the original architect did not and could not account for.

It can not explain the tunnel, though.

I meant in cases where the stream actually leads outside they would need to block it.
In which case I'd argue that not building the passage leading to the river at all, or collapsing it and building around the river, would be smarter than just shrugging and saying 'whatever'.

Zero Credibility said:
Or did he find the way sooner, only to wait in ambush there for years for the Emperor to show up?
He was out there for 30 years, snacking on the imperial agents. Apparently, he can sense if someone moves through the upper tunnels.

And then apparently he forgot about the way out or it was destroyed somehow?
I don't think the restraints that keep him here are of a physical nature:
"There is no way out. No way out of this madness."
 
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Fangshi

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Nevill said:
He suggested the general idea that a once secure place may be falling apart through centuries of use. A recent collapse is just an example, an earthquake can do just that, too, and time would gradually do it as well. It can explain insecurities that the original architect did not and could not account for.

Oh, ok got it.


Nevill said:
In which case I'd argue that not building the passage leading to the river at all, or collapsing it and building around the river, would be smarter than just shrugging and saying 'whatever'.

Sure, but we know nothing of the original purpose of the tunnel (or even if the pit was always just a punishment) and as such have no real way of knowing whether or not there were good reasons to leave the tunnel open. Perhaps it was used to clean out the pit every now and then but over time was forgotten. Perhaps when the secret police took over the upper tunnels the lower ones fell into disuse or something.

It seems like the pit has not been used all that often since Yang was tossed in and there are no other boulders in the pit which suggests that no one of Yang's ability has been thrown in within recent memory.

I suppose I just do not like the idea of spending a month or two with Yang if we are not learning from him. What if he gets bored or hungry or forgets that he was supposed to be tormenting us and decides to attack again, we can't actually stop him after all.
 

Baltika9

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Right, it's obvious that A2 is a lost cause, so hopefully we won't regret passing up this opportunity and will get a chance for another descent later. We're not even through the first half of the LP, after all.

Since the choice is between B1 and B2, I'll just go by simple things: I don't want to waste our time and wander aimlessly for who knows how long. Even a month is pushing it, we have a tournament to attend and win (can't be disappointing Yunzi like this). Since we're not going to spend our time here training vigorously for the coming challenges, I'd rather we not waste our time here at all, grab the technique we have and GTFO, so that means B2.
Risky, of course, but since the water is flowing and flowing quite quickly, that means there are no large objects blocking it's way downstream. Even if it washes out into another huge underground cavern, it would be a huge improvement over this. If it's a swere grate, then it will bend under our desperate strength and neiggong. Since we're not milking YX for all he's worth, let's not spend any more time in his company, shall we?
What the... if we want to learn that badly, why not take another look at those manuals on the walls instead? We seem to be stuck here and we already learned the kicking technique, so... bat claws?
Because treave took our overwhelming "spreading ourselves too thin!" sentiment very seriously and we won't be getting a choice, Jing will be grinding away at that kicking technique of his (admittedly, it sounds absolutely awesome).
I'd rather go explore those endless passages or climb the hole we fell into first. B1 - survive and continue searching for a way out. There obviously is (or was) a way out. How the fuck did he get up there if there wasn't?
Oh, there definitely is an ordinary way out of here. Thing is, he's guarding it.
And I can't help but wonder, how did he find the way out only just as the Emperor was moved? Or did he find the way sooner, only to wait in ambush there for years for the Emperor to show up? I suppose he is nuts enough for that. And then apparently he forgot about the way out or it was destroyed somehow? Shit, I knew our luck was bad, but this takes it to a whole new level.
The Celestials are having their revenge for our little stunts. You didn't really think we could just diss them like that and get away with it, did you? :lol:
 

Absinthe

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Jan 6, 2012
Messages
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:salute: It's been an interesting update so far, and it seems I have to eat my words about "It would have been better if we took Cao'er along." Aside from Esquilax's very valid point that Jing's concern for Cao'er would ruin his Reikan and get him to injure himself in the fall, I think scavenging for the 3 of us would have been too unreasonable. It's all a mixed bag anyhow. Looking forward to the next update.

B1, and he'll focus on the kicks, of course. Because that was what won. I see no reason to allow study of another part, since public sentiment seems to be very much against the idea of 'spreading yourself too thin'.
Hm, I'd like to contest this notion. It seemed to me the reason A won was because folks wanted Jing to branch out a bit more instead of being overspecialized in hand techniques, which he did. Those of us who voted B obviously had no compunctions against learning more techniques either. If you've no preference on this, it may be better to put this matter to a vote in the next update, assuming B1 wins.
 

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