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Baltika9

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Baltika9 said:
All we need is Qilin out of the firing line, and then they can do whatever they want.
Or they can use her as a leverage against you to ensure your cooperation. Since, you know, you are not one of them.
I don't know why you think they are going to just release her. If Yunzi can't do it, why would we be able to? What makes us superior to her in that regard?
I never said that this would come for free, they will definitely want something in exchange. Something like "help us escape." And if that's what gets Qilin to safety best, then so be it. I have nothing personal against the Fire Cult, and neither does Jing. Thing is, I am not at all convinced that sitting in the middle and agitating, waiting for a Hallelujah moment to pop up is the best we can do for her.
Sitting trollishly in the midst of the battle-lines drinking wine while people are clamoring for a fight is "cowering"? :lol: Can't see how you can make a bigger target out of yourself.
By doing so, we will be relying on Shagguan to keep all the people that want to tear us a new asshole away (and there are a lot of them), so yeah, we'll be like that guy sitting behind the biggest dude in the room and throwing insults at everyone.
 

Kipeci

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The two forces are clearly arrayed closely enough that they can see eachother. If Jing, with his 4 in perception (lower than average) can see Qilin clearly enough to recognise her, anyone who's seen Man Tiger Pig before will be able to recognise him as the twerp running excitedly towards the Fire Cults lines. There's more to recognising a person than their face. A master will probably have a high enough perception to recognise Jing even if he were trying to disguise himself, and in this case he isn't.

I only bring this up because Nevill was struck by the concern that the head of Huashan will drop everything and any concerns about the Sword Saint in favor of a wild rush due to recognizing us talking with the Fire Cult, which I personally think is unlikely. Even if that's a problem, we know that the guy couldn't recognize us while holding a full conversation in the alternate timeline, he'd only be seeing our back as we talk to the Fire Cult, and the people who have fought us are a bit too busy nursing their wounds, being paralyzed, etc. to rush forth and report on us, even if the Orthodox guys cared enough to make everyone report the moment Jing shows up to the highest authority (which, again, I don't think is likely.)

Basically, Nevill's argument was that C will make the orthodox guys immediately attack before we can even talk a little and I said that that's bullshit. Are you arguing otherwise?

Besides, begging is so un-Jing like...

Because it is Jing-like to abandon your friend and lover while she's in a chokehold in favor of drinking with those cool and pretty orthodox guys like the Sword Saint and BJ, right? Jing did a fair amount of diplomacy in the past, it's time to work on it a bit more.
 

Nevill

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You seem paranoid that the head of Huashan will immediately rush over to attack the other side on the sole basis of Jing joining up with them, I'm just stating that Nie isn't going to be paying breathtakingly close attention to some guy talking to the Fire Cult way across the battlefield and so he isn't going to be able to tell that it's Jing, let alone if he can't recognize him and the people who are are otherwise occupied.
Now, that is not what I was saying, and yes, Nie Wuxung is withing the talking distance with the Fire Cult leader. And we are going tthere in C, too. I don't see how that equals 'across the battlefield'.
Nie Wuxung is going to hear everything we say. That is my point. If you think otherwise, so be it. Confirm it with treave or something.
How he will react to it is open to interpretation.

We're not declaring allegiance, we're negotiating the release of Qilin.
By pointing out that we are the enemies of the Eight Sects and not on their side. And the reason Qilin was attacked is because there were only two sides. Guess where that leaves us in everyone's eyes.

Why should the orthodox give a shit if some guy out of many is talking on the Fire Cult's side?
Because we are not just 'some guy'?

Why do you think the Fire Cult, in for the fight of most of their lives, is going to be distracted from what they think is one of the few chips they have left to secure their safety by the trollish antics of some drinker who stumbled in halfway? No one has time for Jing's shit right now, and betting Qilin's life on them humoring Jing seems kinda shitty.
Because we will be distracting Nie Wuxung, their enemy, and they would want to know WTF is going on?

If you want to go for the option where you distract and attack the Fire Cult to get Qilin out of there, go for the option that has you actually do that, not the option where we get a drink.
Thank you, I'll do exactly that.
A. You join the Sword Saint in the middle for a drink and attempt to distract both sides from their fight. Hopefully this will keep Qilin safe for a little while longer until you manage to think up a way to free her from the Amesha Spenta. It would be best if no one did anything stupid in the meanwhile.

And you think he and all his buddies are going to stay stationary and do nothing if a hail of needles starts coming their way? What do you take them for?
If they notice them, that is.
It is nice of you to try ang cling to the one particular opportunity that we don't even know would present itself. For all we know, Zhang will come by in five minutes and everyone will just forget about Qilin altogether.

I am stalling for time and searching for the opportunities. In the meantime, I am trying to prevent the event they are holding the hostage for in the first place.

Okay, I think I see what the plan is.
No, you don't.

By the way, there is another factor to this. I remember the Saint telling Yandi to become friends with as much people as possible, and Qilin is one of his friends. Letting her die is kind of counter-productive to the Saint's goals. So maybe we could count on his help in the matter, after all.
 

Azira

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All of this is conjecture and guesswork. We have no idea how the different parties will react to any of these choices.

I for one feel that option A is the most fitting for Jing. He knows Qilin is quite resourceful, and each and every option is worded in a way that suggests Jing has a plan.
A sets Jing up in the center, to attract some attention, win some time.
B is hanging back, trying to get a better handle on the situation, so as not to jinx matters, while relying on the Sword Saint.
C is appealing to the ones holding his waifu captive, relying on the goodwill of the Fire Cult.
D sees him relying on noone but himself, trying to sweep in and save Qilin, all other considerations be damned.

In my view, A seems to be the option best suited for setting Jing where he can try and make sure that neither side does anything stupid.

We came here to try and break up the fighting, yes? Let's stick to that.
 

Kashmir Slippers

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Well, obviously the Cult will ask for something in return, most likely our assistance in their escape, and I see no problem with giving it. And it's impossible to make Jing into a scapegoat in a situation like this, when he had nothing to do with the mountain collapsing in the first place. All in all, C looks like a simple exchange: Qilin for Jing's, the guy who is stronger than their top young fighter (as far as they know), assistance, which there are no problems with.
And fuck cowering behind Shagguan (with BJ right by our side, might I add) while Qilin is about to die, we must do something proactive. A is the farthest thing from that. I still don't see what we're holding out for, except a miracle or LORD Zhang Jue's arrival* and trolling the belligerent crowds, one of whom hates us and the other just wanting to GTFO and will fight for it if it has to. Like, what's the point?

*To be fair, that will solve all of our problems.

Dearest me for not knowing exactly how every option is going to turn out like you seem to always do.

Seriously. You say it is impossible to make Jing a scapegoat. I say it is possible. We have fought on the side of the Fire cult. None of the orthodox sects like us. The Fire cult has our woman. That is all they need to make us do something stupid for her return that will make us the main evil left. Say that we help them escape like you imply. Are we going to run away from China as well? Do you think that the orthodox sects will just let us get away with helping their mortal enemies escape unscathed? Once they are gone we will be the only ones left. That by its very principle makes us a scapegoat for the cult.

We also don't know how we match up to the orthodox sects' strongest either. We just lost to a bit of trickery from a "young fighter" like you said. We are by no means the best fighter out here. If helping them escape means taking on Nie Wuxung, though, then we will be incredibly outmatched. I am not willing to take that chance so they "might" give her back. We also have to remember that they have no reason to bargain with us. If they see that Qilin is so dear to us, they may jut keep her to have a bargaining chip with us for the future.

We also do not know where this is going. People are ignoring what Nie is going to do. For all we know he is going to start a parley, and us rushing headlong into the cult might set off a bomb. He might not, granted, but we are jumping to conclusion again. Sitting with the Sword Saint will let us see what develops in a relatively safe position. It isn't "hiding behind him" or "cowering" either. We might just be thirsty after our fight and want to rub Bai's nose in the ground by having to serve us drinks. It also opens up a dialogue with the Saint. He is an unorthodox fighter like us and could serve as an invaluable ally/mentor for later when we have alienated all of the orthodox community like you all seem to desire. To cut this option as a "coward" only choice is dong it a great disservice.

Also, i don't see why we are in such a dangerous rush to get to Qilin. Granted, she is in a precarious position, but we need to think about how much of a danger she is in. I doubt that they would just kill her if they found out that she was of no use to them. She might, but I don't think so. If anything, bartering with them for her freedom will make her that much more valuable to them than she is right now.
 

Nevill

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Eh, we already passed up Operation Maiden Capture because it was too trollish for our tastes and we were certain no one would appreciate such a troll and it will only make things worse. Turns out it was one of the best options.

I am not about to make the same mistake twice. Jing knows how to become the center of everyone's attention. The more attention is focused on him, the less attention there is on Qilin or on the upcoming fight. I'd say we should let him work his magic.
 

Elfberserker

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This might be just me being hungry and very sleepy, but I am beginning to think that we are misinterpreting situation. There is couple of facts we have to consider.

Mystery FACTS!:
- Does Nie Wuxian know that Qilin is of Wudu cult? It would be pretty strange for Sect leader to kill possible innocent civilian in such high public place.
- Why did Nie showed such disgust toward Sword saint? Is it because Sword saint doesn't belong to any sect or something else.
- Is Sword Saint just lazy or does he have something in his mind? We may not know his motives, but letting Young girl to die in this fashion just doesn't seem to be his style.
-Why is Nie holding the sword in the air? Is he amoral in such extend that he would allow innocent girl to die? Remember people this guy seems to have reputation being more orthodox than most orthodox guys.
-
....

Flopping back to A,
 

Nevill

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- Why did Nie showed such disgust toward Sword saint? Is it because Sword saint doesn't belong to any sect or something else.
There is a speculation that the Saint was a Huashan disciple once.

- Is Sword Saint just lazy or does he have something in his mind? We may not know his motives, but letting Young girl to die in this fashion just doesn't seem to be his style.
Lazy people do not reach such heights.
 

Kipeci

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Now, that is not what I was saying, and yes, Nie Wuxung is withing the talking distance with the Fire Cult leader.
And we are going tthere in C, too. I don't see how that equals 'across the battlefield'.
Nie Wuxung is going to hear everything we say. That is my point. If you think otherwise, so be it. Confirm it with treave or something.
How he will react to it is open to interpretation.

That's not true. The update says that the two camps are exchanging 'angry shouts', and that's all we get about that, no declaration that they're in 'talking distance'. Thinking that the other side is going to perfectly and crisply pick up whatever it is that we say doesn't really seem that accurate.

By pointing out that we are the enemies of the Eight Sects and not on their side. And the reason Qilin was attacked is because there were only two sides. Guess where that leaves us in everyone's eyes.

Or by pointing out that she's not Orthodox and that the other side won't care a lick if they threaten her? Anyway, the original point here is that you're saying that Jing talking to the Fire Cult is going to so inflame the other side that they all rush over at once and Qilin gets killed. I think that's bullshit.

Because we are not some guy?

When our back is turned to them and they're a distance away we might as well be. When Jing's power is nothing compared to the leaders of the sects and the Fire Cult I still don't see why him being there is reason enough to encourage an attack.

Thank you, I'll do exactly that.

That option does not say attack, it only says 'try to distract'. The option D, on the other hand, says:

D. With the help of the fire medicine you just obtained, you will jump in and take back Qilin from their hands with a quick and speedy distraction. You don’t trust anyone here, not the Fire Cult, nor the orthodox pugilists, nor even the Sword Saint. The only way to save her is by your own hands.

If you want to distract and attack them, D's your option. A doesn't attack them, treave would lead that aspect up to a vote of itself since we have a marginally positive relationship with them as opposed to a terrible one where we're enemies on sight. At best for A we'd get a chance to do that in another update, but if you just want to distract and attack them, I don't know why you wouldn't try to pull it off now instead of doing the distract part now and waiting for the next update to try to attack.

If they notice them, that is.
It is nice of you to try ang cling to the one particular opportunity that we don't even know would present itself. For all we know, Zhang will come by in five minutes and everyone will just forget about Qilin altogether.

Oh, if they noticed the hail of needles that paralyzed their buddy right next to them, right. World class pugilists sleep through that shit all the time.
If Zhang Jue comes by and everyone forgets about this, great! But that happens independently of whatever we do here. I'd rather try to save Jing's beloved than just sit down and hope that maybe something good will happen so that we don't have to get off our ass.

I am stalling for time and searching for the opportunities. In the meantime, I am trying to prevent the event they are hoding the hostage for in the first place.

If they realize that holding the hostage is useless then there's no need for it, and Jing cares about the hostage very much. Stalling for time in a situation this volatile with his love in the balance is pretty shitty when he can take active steps to talk them out of this.
 

Baltika9

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Eh, we already passed up Operation Maiden Capture because it was too trollish for our tastes and we were certain no one would appreciate such a troll and it will only make things worse. Turns out it was one of the best options.
Not quite. Sure, we capture the girls and become the center of attention. Then the masters, Amesha Spentas and the Ahura Mazda arrive and we are in deep, deep shit.
- Is Sword Saint just lazy or does he have something in his mind? We may not know his motives, but letting Young girl to die in this fashion just doesn't seem to be his style.
Lazy people do not reach such heights.
Personally, I think he just gives zero fucks.
He is an unorthodox fighter like us and could serve as an invaluable ally/mentor for later when we have alienated all of the orthodox community like you all seem to desire. To cut this option as a "coward" only choice is dong it a great disservice.
Shagguan has an extremely orthodox reputation, though, and I can say the same about calling C "cowardly."
Also, i don't see why we are in such a dangerous rush to get to Qilin. Granted, she is in a precarious position, but we need to think about how much of a danger she is in. I doubt that they would just kill her if they found out that she was of no use to them. She might, but I don't think so. If anything, bartering with them for her freedom will make her that much more valuable to them than she is right now.
She is at swordpoint between two parties that couldn't care less about her well-being, that's plenty dangerous enough. She is a useless hostage since the Orthodox Sects don't care about her at all, Wudu heiress and all, and I really can't see what A achieves when we go within talking distance of BJ, Nie w Wuxing and the Saint. So we troll around, bullshit them and be the clown. So what? Sure, C puts us in a bargaining position with the Cult and obviously they will ask for something in return, well, let's give it to them. Qilin's life is worth fighting with them. If the orthodoxes decide to rush us while we are negotiating for the hostage and not attacking anyone, they can have fun getting past Shagguan.
Point stands: A relies on a miracle to pop up and help us save Qilin. What are we waiting for, exactly? No one knows!
And that's a shitty thing to be gambling Qilin's life for.
 

Nevill

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Kipeci said:
Anyway, the original point here is that you're saying that Jing talking to the Fire Cult is going to so inflame the other side that they all rush over at once and Qilin gets killed. I think that's bullshit.
Ok.

Kipeci said:
If you want to distract and attack them, D's your option.
Not when his hand is on her throat, I won't. He can strangle her just by reflex.
Do not make sudden moves when dealing with a hostage situation. At least until they are paying close attention.

Kipeci said:
A doesn't attack them, treave would lead that aspect up to a vote of itself since we have a marginally positive relationship with them as opposed to a terrible one where we're enemies on sight.
Thank you for finally noticing what I was trying to say. Maybe.
I don't care how the opportunity would present itself. It it requires us to attack them, so be it, if it requires nudging the Saint in the right direction, so be it.

I am not going to discuss attacking them anymore, thank you.

Kipeci said:
If they realize that holding the hostage is useless then there's no need for it, and Jing cares about the hostage very much.
They can still make the hostage situation work against us. Why wouldn't they?

Baltika9 said:
Sure, C puts us in a bargaining position with the Cult and obviously they will ask for something in return, well, let's give it to them
And they are going to release her if you promise them to behave yourself? Or they will hold her hostage until you fulfill your end of the bargain? And why not after?
 

Kipeci

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Because Jing's a pugilist of rising power who for whatever reason has some measure of sympathy for them and it'd be stupid for them to antagonize Jing in that way and make him definitely hate them for the future? They'd have to devote resources to guarding Qilin if they're telling us to fight for them or she dies or whatever, that takes away from their own effort. He's not strong enough to go toe to toe with the other sect heads, so that's not worth keeping an Amesha guy away from a fight with a knife to Qilin.
 

Nevill

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Kipeci said:
Because Jing's a pugilist of rising power who for whatever reason has some measure of sympathy for them and it'd be stupid for them to antagonize Jing in that way and make him definitely hate them for the future?
If it makes him work for them, why would they care if he is happy or not? Do they strike you as caring types?
I don't know how a measure of sympathy to their maidens translates to the Cult as a whole. To their Amesha Spenta? To their Lord? I don't think Jing cares too much about them.

Kipeci said:
They'd have to devote resources to guarding Qilin if they're telling us to fight for them or she dies or whatever, that takes away from their own effort.
Depends on whether the effort is worth keeping Jing around.

Kipeci said:
He's not strong enough to go toe to toe with the other sect heads, so that's not worth keeping an Amesha guy away from a fight with a knife to Qilin.
Five regular guys can keep an eye on her just as well.

Anyway, we are getting carried away. I am saying that C does not warrant an immediate release either.
 

Baltika9

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And that may be true, but what it does, if successful, is guarantee Qilin being taken out of the middle of this situation and to safety. Which is all we really need. Anyway, we've been DISCUSSing for over five pages and I still don't see what gives A it's superiority in terms of Qilin's safety, all I've gathered so far is "they'll make us help them in return for her life!" "b-but Nie Wuxing will order a charge the moment he sees us!" and "Yunzi couldn't negotiate her release (not that she even tried or was in a position to do so in the first place, mind you)," "wait for a miracle to happen! (the only way I can see this working out is LORD Zhang Jue making an appearance on the tamed Yamata no Orochi)" and "b-but Fire Cult are icky!"
 

Kipeci

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If it makes him work for them, why would they care if he is happy or not? Do they strike you as caring types?

They don't strike me as anything really since we've passed up every single opportunity to talk to them and it looks like we're about to do the same again so that we can go drinking. But considering how them strongarming Jing into helping them wouldn't really affect any fight where it mattered (that being the top tier) I don't think that they'd want to burn that many bridges just so that they have his assistance this one time and then his hatred for the rest of the future when they have very few friends in this land.

I don't know how a measure of sympathy to their maidens translates to the Cult as a whole. To their Amesha Spenta? To their Lord? I don't think Jing cares too much about them.

A pugilist on their side in anything is looking pretty rare, I think they'll take what they can get.

Depends on whether the effort is worth keeping Jing around.

Exactly. If it's not, they don't guard her, and she's free to go... so, essentially, it'd be like them just allowing her to leave and yet they'd have pissed Jing off by saying that they'd kill her or whatever if he doesn't fight with them, as opposed to letting her go and asking him to stick with them if he would or something.

Five regular guys can keep an eye on her just as well.

Jing can crush five regular guys in two seconds flat, those guys being sure that Jing wouldn't just make off with Qilin would have to be able to ensure that she couldn't survive if Jing did anything but help them, including if Jing went straight to attack them.

Anyway, we are getting carried way. I say that C does not warrant an immediate release either.

Sure, maybe they say that they'll release her and ask a favor or something in return and we get a choice whether to go along with it or not or something like that. I think that that's a lot better than just going on over to drink and hope that 'something' happens, and furthermore that that something is lucky for Jing.

I don't think Qilin is going to be too impressed with Jing if he went off to drink at this critical time, and I don't think her family would, either. Their approval has historically resulted in them deciding to teach Jing new skills and so on, their disapproval... well, I think that'd be more prickly.
 

Baltika9

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Voting A so Jing can think of a better idea.
Honestly, I think that if you don't like any of the options present, then B is the best choice, it's all about keeping your options open and waiting for an opening. Which leads me to an interesting idea: maybe B isn't as horrible as we all think it is? If Shagguan has a plan in coming out here, then Jing's trololoing will only throw a wrench into it and fuck everything up, our reputation and standing among the orthodox sects being what it is. All of our choices kinda do suck a bit (even if I still prefer C over the rest of them) so maybe letting him do his thing and biding our time for an opening on Qilin is the best thing for her safety?
 

Tigranes

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I wonder if the Sects order an all out charge, will the Sword Saint just sit there and keep drinking. If that was the case you'd think he'd have simply up and left - or not interfered at all. He clearly has some interest in steering the outcome, which doesn't quite align with 'help the sects indiscriminately'. A avails ourselves as a resource for him to make use of, and/or potentially allows us to steer an outcome where we can have the Sword Saint help - he's probably our best shot for just about any quick solution.

B is also potentially useful, though the Nie guy approaching makes it sound like time is not on our side.
 

treave

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Nie Wuxung is going to hear everything we say. That is my point. If you think otherwise, so be it. Confirm it with treave or something.
How he will react to it is open to interpretation.

You would be closer to Nie Wuxing than the Fire Cult in A. He is standing just a bit in front of the Sword Saint.
 

Baltika9

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He clearly has some interest in steering the outcome, which doesn't quite align with 'help the sects indiscriminately'. A avails ourselves as a resource for him to make use of, and/or potentially allows us to steer an outcome where we can have the Sword Saint help - he's probably our best shot for just about any quick solution.
He obviously isn't in it for either side, at least as of yet, but treave debunked my previous speculation on that topic. However, we really aren't the best guy to help Shagguan with a "diplomatic" solution with the Sects, BJ and Nie Wuxing especially. Given our history with them, I don't think that they will be inclined to reason with Shagguan if we're right next to him, hiding behind his back while trolololing everyone. I think that all we'll accomplish is aggravating everyone...and then what?
Which makes me think it is a point in favor of C: while we negotiate for Qilin's safety, Shagguan will keep the orthodoxes at bay since neither us or the cult are making any violent moves.
 
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Kipeci

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Nie Wuxung is going to hear everything we say. That is my point. If you think otherwise, so be it. Confirm it with treave or something.
How he will react to it is open to interpretation.

You would be closer to Nie Wuxing than the Fire Cult in A. He is standing just a bit in front of the Sword Saint.

We were more wondering if the two sides are close enough that the Orthodox guys would be able to hear what we were saying to the Fire Cult if we went with C. I was thinking no, Nevill seemed to be of the mind that the two sides would be close enough to hear everything we said clearly.

Edit: Anyway, A voters, would any of you be willing to at least talk to some of the Fire Cult folks in the future if not this particular choice? I know we've long since passed up on the opportunity to gallivant around with them as a member, but I'd want to at least talk to them to get a sense of what they're like in the time to come. I'm just afraid that we're going to pass up every single opportunity until we have some horribly wrong idea of what they'd be like. (Can you imagine how paranoid we'd be of Wudang's master if we hadn't actually talked to him?)
 
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treave

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We were more wondering if the two sides are close enough that the Orthodox guys would be able to hear what we were saying to the Fire Cult if we went with C. I was thinking no, Nevill seemed to be of the mind that the two sides would be close enough to hear everything we said clearly.

It really wouldn't matter. Nothing you say to the Fire Cult is going to sway their opinion of you for the better anyway.

All it takes is for one of the Taishan Seven to shout out your identity, if they haven't already told everybody about their encounter with you. That eye-patch and hair means you're rather easy to identify and describe.

Why would you be concerned with what the orthodox sects think when the choice has you talking to the Fire Cult?
 

Baltika9

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Why would you be concerned with what the orthodox sects think when the choice has you talking to the Fire Cult?
There's a fear here that, should Nie Wuxing and the rest of the orthodoxes see us negotiating with the Cult for Qilin's release, they'll immediately go for a charge and even Shagguan won't be able to do a thing to stop them, and we won't get enough time to negotiate for Qilin's life in the first place because of that.
 

Kipeci

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Vicksburg
Basically that. I don't personally care what the Orthodox would think about us meeting up with them, but others think that that'll result in a charge so that we won't even get to talk to the Fire Cult people.
 

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