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Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
Baltika9, I think the skill and number of the fighters present more than makes up for the lack of prep time.

In fact, to show my support of teamwork, I am changing my vote to A>C1.

We've been over this.

1. Mr Macho probably won't want to stop the fight like that in front of all his followers.
2. This guy is over confident or he wouldn't be taking on 4 very skilled fighters, 3 masters and Jing at once. He probably won't see his loss coming until it's too late.
3. He wants her hot bod, so he probably already gave orders not to kill her and Yunzi won't do it once he's dead, so no worries unless he starts shouting "time out" in the middle of the heated battle, runs over to her and points a gun at her head or some shit.
Except Mr. Macho had absolutely zero problems with calling in his Ahuras the last time he was in trouble. No, hell no, we are not ready for him. Let the experienced fighters cut loose without having to worry about the youngsters dying. And without us worrying about Qilin dying.
 

XenomorphII

Prophet
Joined
Jan 23, 2011
Messages
1,198
He is their religious and secular leader. I seriously doubt they will stand by and watch him be killed, regardless of what the consequences are for them personally or what protection Yunzi tries to give Qilin.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
She is also a religious/secular leader. We've already seen Vahista obey her orders.

edit: Ugh. I feel like I'm trying to talk you guys out of jumping into the river again and nobody is listening. :/
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
4: Yunzi is over there without him interfering. She can probably countermand any order to kill Qilin that doesn't come directly from him or at least delay it long enough for the fight to be over.
Yunzi cannot actually overrule him on anything. She absolutely does not outrank him. She is his bride to be. He is their God, he is paramount.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Read what I wrote. I didn't say she could overrule him.


edit: this is pages of discuss. I'm done - if only for the sake of not wanting to inflict this on the other thread readers. If you can't see how C2 will fuck shit up by now, it's your own damn fault.

edit2: Pretty clear Yunzi doesn't love this guy, so betrayal is a possibility, but stopping them from ACTUALLY killing Qilin isn't a betrayal and wouldn't endanger him at that point. She knows Qilin is our friend, so I'm betting she'd help her out.
 
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XenomorphII

Prophet
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Jan 23, 2011
Messages
1,198
Yes, but if her orders endanger him will they? I am also not sold on Yunzi being willing to sacrifice this guy for Qilin. She is betrothed to him after all (at least that is my understanding do correct me if I am mistaken), and barely knows Qilin.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Baltika9 said:
You said she can countermand Ahura, but she cannot revoke his orders because:
No, I did not. Read it until you understand it and then stop saying I said that.
edit: No, biggie. I do it all the time too. :M
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Yunzi cannot actually overrule him on anything. She absolutely does not outrank him. She is his bride to be. He is their God, he is paramount.
Eh, no. In the first case, that's blasphemy to the Zoroastrian faith. In the second case, he said, “Yes. I am the earthly one blessed with carrying the name of Ahura as God’s representative” (which also sounds like blasphemy to me, but whatever). At any rate, "earthly one" means "not a god."
 

treave

Arcane
Patron
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Messages
11,370
Codex 2012
I will make no statement here on whether he actually considers himself a god or not in the organization, but they are a heretical cult, not orthodox representatives of the Zoroastrian religion.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
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Messages
9,611
Odd, Zoros were a generally tolerant bunch, they had a lot of offshoots and had nothing against polytheism. Then again, he does think of himself as Ahura Mazda in the flesh, and that's bound to be controversial.
 

Kipeci

Arcane
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May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
That the other Zoroastrians will try to kill these guys on sight isn't a given, they are generally fairly tolerant, but that doesn't change that the this is still heretical for the standard Zoroastrianism as promoted by the most recent incarnation of the Persian Empire. I think most Zoroastrian branches as they are today don't even allow converts into the religious community, let alone encourage them.
 

Baltika9

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Messages
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Persia is in the time of the Sassanid Collapse, being devoured piece-by-piece by the Muslims, and Zoros are being either purged or "voluntarily" converted by the new faith. I suppose in these times of turmoil, an especially powerful figure like Ahura here could play on the desperation of the faithful and build himself up as the Messiah.
 
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Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I trust that, if the firelord is defeated then there will be mass panic at the firecult side. By panic I mean everyman for himself or they bargain safe retreat in exchange of Qilin. Remember people Firecult is bargaining with trustworthy eight sects, not only unorthodox upstart like Jing. The best solution would be that Yunzi takes over firecult or someone reasonable.
I can't help but think that this requires the Fire Lord to be dead to succeed. If he is merely defeated, but still alive, what is stopping the Fire Cult from exchanging Qilin's life, not freedom, for their retreat? That would work on the orthodoxes just the same.

I agree that killing him is the best solution, but I do not think it is plausible considering his power, the reinforcements he can call upon, and his own integrity. I am certain that he will be singing a different tune once the wind changes.

If we do not manage to kill him quickly, this places Qilin in a very precarious position, and I do not think we should risk that.

This is meta as hell, but from a narrative standpoint this guy is built like a long-term threat. You have three years to defeat him before Yunzi is married to him, you have 15 potential neiggong to fill in the meantime. It is extremely naive to expect to kill him in your first encounter.

Defeating him is already a pretty tall order. If you add killing him as a requirement for Qilin's rescue, fighting the guy directly becomes a pretty shaky way of helping her.

edit: Ugh. I feel like I'm trying to talk you guys out of jumping into the river again and nobody is listening. :/
Yes, but this time you are the one arguing for jumping in the river. That is, fighting an opponent of unknown strength and hoping for the best while there is an - admittedly risky, but far less murky - option that actively works on helping Qilin with her situation. If your plan depends on the whole series of lucky coincidences (the Fire Lord being weaker than our group combined, not calling for the reinforcements, and being felled quickly), I can't call it a good plan.
 
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a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Yes, but this time you are arguing for jumping in the river.
Nope, nope, nope. Last time I said we should stay and everyone wanted to run away, saying that there was no way we could beat Yang and that Qilin would end up dead. This time I'm saying we stay and everyone is saying there is no way we can win, Qilin will end up dead etc. Sound familiar?

If you are going to strawman me every freak'n post you could at least get it closer to the truth, bro. :M
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Lambchop19 said:
This time I'm saying we stay and everyone is saying there is no way we can win, Qilin will end up dead etc. Sound familiar?
No, this time people think that defeating him might be possible. It is killing him outright that feels extremely sketchy.

And if we don't kill him, Qilin does not end up dead, she ends up his slave when he gets away using her as a hostage. Not that much of an improvement. If we try to prevent him leaving, then she may end up dead. If we don't, that would be one hollow victory.

And then you are calling me out for using a strawman. Uh-huh.

Again, strawman. I'm not saying the battle will be over that quickly. I'm saying that - once he is one the ropes - we kill him quickly before he calls for reinforcements (IF he is even the sort to call for reinforcements).

Blame me if it doesn't work.
He does not need to call for reinforcements, they can jump in by themselves, as they did at Heihu. And how would you even know he'd be on the ropes? Where is that hidden reserve that would allow you to kill him quickly once this magical moment arrives? The whole 'plan' is just wishful thinking.

Oh, and about blaming you...
"Oops I didn't meant to!" doesn't raise the dead, bro.
:M
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
treave, would Qilin dying in his arms with a final "I love you" be enough to send Jing into MAXIMUM FUCK berserk meltdown and kill everyone in sight? Including Ahura?
Just curious.
 
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TOME

Cuckmaster General
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
1,820
Why is it that the stealth route isn't more popular? We have invested heavily in sneaking and everyone's eyes will be on the fight anyway. We sneak in close and hit the amesha spenta holding Qilin with the fire medicine and run back while Cao'er provides cover fire. And the best part is that we don't have to sacrifice the only people capable of stopping Ahure.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
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Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
Because tossing a satchel full of what seems to be nitroglycerin-based explosives at the dude holding Qilin by the neck seems kinda dumb. He's from a Fire cult, so heat is probably not too bad for someone like him. Qilin, on the other hand...
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
And there is a doubt that the junior fighters quality as the only people who are capable of stopping Ahura in the first place.
 

TOME

Cuckmaster General
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
1,820
So the hundred man battle Jing fought was in reality Jing vs. three minor sect masters, because the rest were so far below Jing's level that they didn't count? That is basically what you are saying?
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
So the hundred man battle Jing fought was in reality Jing vs. three minor sect masters, because the rest were so far below Jing's level that they didn't count? That is basically what you are saying?
There is a difference between 3 masters + 97 mooks vs. 1 moderately able fighter and 4 masters + 3 juniors vs. 1 God representative.

And C2 potentially prevents Amesha Spentas from joining the fight.
 

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