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Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Well I'm mostly going with A because 天下大勢,分久必合,合久必分.

Translation: "It is the tendency under heaven that that which is long divided surely unites and that which is long united surely divides." It's one of the first lines out of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

Ergo, voting A.
 
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Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
I'm glad my Ahura theory panned out, though I'm less glad that we're about to die.

Before you can drop into a fighting stance, Ahura appears right in front of you, traversing the intervening distance with a single step. He looks down at you with a sneer, weighing you down with the pressure of his full attention.

Cao’er squeaks in a panic. You feel your limbs becoming heavy: his strong qi is of an oppressive nature, and you struggle to shake it off.

There is a great disturbance of qi somewhere within the building, swirling. Raging. Scorching. It is oppressive and overbearing, and the deeper you make your way into the temple’s innermost chambers, the more adherents and worshippers you see laying splayed out on the floor, rendered unconscious by the overwhelming power burning at the temple’s heart. You doubt that you could have made it this far unchallenged in normal circumstances, but tonight…
...
At the center of it all is a pillar of flame, pure white in colour, stretching from the ground to the ceiling. It is the cause of the sweltering heat in the chamber, yet you sense that it is not the source of power that you felt. Around the flame stand the five Amesha Spenta, their arms outstretched, desperately pouring their qi into the fire in an attempt to control it. A strong wind swirls around the room, whipping up long scrolls on the wall that are filled with – strangely – Han writing.

I found it interesting that in both cases, Ahura's qi was described as being "oppressive". I'm definitely reaching here, but when Big Wang defeated Ahura he didn't combat Ahura's oppressive, dominating nature with direct aggression of his own. Perhaps something to think about? As for the Eternal Flame, it seems to be a conduit of some sort. I'm having trouble sorting through some of the DISCUSS!!!, treave, what is the Eternal Flame and what is it's function here, exactly? I understand if this is SPOILERS territory, though, just curious if Jing would know at the moment.

His eyes are yet closed, but as his shape grows more and more distinct, a twisted smile spreads very slowly across his lips. Although he stands in the center of the conflagration, he remains unburned, his skin unblemished and unmarked.
...
Vahista lets out a foreign curse as he redoubles his efforts, stepping closer to the fire. “We must strengthen the Eternal Flame! It will purify our Lord! Tonight is the crucial period... once we pass this stage, his recovery is assured!” The white flame burns more brightly and strongly than before as it flares up in response to Vahista’s qi. The overwhelming power that you have felt begins subsiding slowly; what the Amesha Spenta are doing is beginning to take effect. Then, Ahura’s eyes open: they, too, are pure white, as if the Eternal Flame itself burns within his body. Though you can see no pupils, you get the dreadful feeling that he is looking around the room.

And for just a single moment, your gaze meets his.

The Eternal Flame explodes.

Unblemished. Unmarked. Pure.

If your qi is very pure, the fire will be more responsive to you without needing a technique, but it's very, very choosy and if it detects even a hint of impurity you'll need the technique to control it.

Pure in what sense, treave? "Pure" as in a balance between yin and yang? I'm not sure what exactly is meant here.

The living god is surprised for just a brief moment before bursting into a creature of flame and shadow, roaring as his hands blur in a movement that knocks aside all of your attacks with ease and ends up closing around your throat. A scorching pain radiates throughout your neck. You retaliate by grabbing his throat with both of your hands, though it burns your fingers to do so, and shove him hard. It looks like he has no presence of mind – Ahura only snarls like a mindless beast as your surprise attack pushes him backwards further, just enough to step into the center of the chamber.

Not sure if this is a hint, but the properties of shadow and flame correspond to yin and yang, respectively. So I suppose a being composed solely of the two would be a pure one, containing only yin and yang.

As if on cue, the Eternal Flame erupts around you, roaring back to life and blinding your vision again. For some reason, the white fire does not harm you; instead, its essence seeps into your body. You feel the impurities in your inner strength being burnt away as it reacts with your qi. You grow gradually weaker, and the fire grows steadily hotter, as if feeding off your life force. The heat is starting to become unbearable. Your qi begins to go out of control as it attempts to fight off the Eternal Flame, with your body as the battlefield. A terrible pain shoots throughout your entire body, almost knocking you out: it is a familiar one, one that you felt once before when Master Zhang destroyed your meridians.

I'm not sure; why would this pain be similar to the one we felt when Master Zhang destroyed our meridians? treave, would Jing know why this is the case?

You grit your teeth, but Ahura screams, and his fingers crush your throat. You choke, gasping for breath as blood begins bubbling out of your mouth, but still you keep your grip on him. In the mad god’s desperation you feel his qi pouring into you, attempting to destroy you from inside out. You try to absorb it, to mitigate the damage that he is doing, but the sheer torrent of qi is almost too much for your body to handle. It is half light and half dark, orderly and chaotic, and suddenly you realize what the Grand Taoist had done.

Is this where our neigong cap was worn down, treave? What specific event ended up affecting our toad demon essence?

He had transformed Ahura’s qi from order into chaos, turning light into darkness. The result had wreaked havoc and destruction on a body unprepared, unadapted to handle such a change. Perhaps the Eternal Flame was meant to purify and to regenerate Ahura, but the Amesha Spenta may have known nothing about the qi that he now lived with, and its side-effects. The Flame seems to have succeeded in restoring his internal energy to a certain extent, but the process is yet incomplete, and you appear to have interrupted it at the worst possible moment.

Okay, so he's still got a ton of "impurities" within him. Ahura was comprised of order, Big Wang's deadly qi technique turned that order into chaos, and now the Amesha Spenta have kept Ahura in this chamber to return him into a state of order. I think that's the right of it.

Your sight wavers. This is a fight you cannot win, your strength waning with every second. Ahura has even taken control over the Eternal Flame, as he directs it to destroy you in his pain and anger: your chaos appears to be anathema to the light of the fire, as it seems driven to destroy you at all costs.

I hope I'm getting the fact straight here: with the Amesha Spenta scattered from the Eternal Flame after it blew up, Ahura used his incredible inner strength to take it over himself, and now he's directed it towards us. It's coming at us because our chaotic qi is something that it instinctively wants to destroy.

All flows from the Origin and returns to the Origin.

A. All flows from the Origin and returns to the Origin. Chaos is the source of both yin and yang, and the two combined can dissolve back into chaos. If the Grand Taoist could turn Ahura’s qi into that similar to your own, it might be possible, even with your limited understanding, to transform your own qi, drawing out yin and yang from the primordial chaos. Where Ahura was unable to change the nature of his own qi and was burnt by his own flames, you must succeed. You will attempt, against all odds, to derive order from chaos, wresting control of the Eternal Flame to turn it against the man that once embodied it.

Even in our limited understanding, we knew that yin and yang arose from the Primordial Chaos that has manifested our qi. There's no question that this is possible, the real question is whether we can actually do it. Of course, both options are insane.

B. All flows from the Origin and returns to the Origin. The chaos is infinite in its depth, and boundless in its hunger – in the end, all returns to it, no matter yin or yang. You will not let pain nor a crushed throat stop you; Ahura’s amateur use of his chaotic qi will not match yours. You draw in and absorb everything you can: you will take in the Eternal Flame and Ahura’s qi – all of it – no matter how much it hurts you. You are not sure whether your body will be able to handle the strain of channeling such power, but your willpower will not be shaken by such petty concerns. After all, you are the disciple of Zhang Jue.

Even in the short time that we've been here we've lost five points of our neigong cap. If we imagine our inner strength as a large reservoir that we fill more and more as we absorb Ahura's tremendous qi, in this short period of time, our juggernaut supertanker has been replaced with by a dump truck. A dump truck can still carry tons of stuff in it, but this seems like a job fit only for a supertanker.

Based on that, and on Ganymede's excellent arguments, I have to go with A

A Taoist story tells of an old man who accidentally fell into the river rapids leading to a high and dangerous waterfall. Onlookers feared for his life. Miraculously, he came out alive and unharmed downstream at the bottom of the falls. People asked him how he managed to survive.

"I accommodated myself to the water, not the water to me. Without thinking, I allowed myself to be shaped by it. Plunging into the swirl, I came out with the swirl. This is how I survived."
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Anyway, all this info treave keeps dumping just makes me see A as a very "perfect" solution: we must pull off everything without a hitch while improvising on a topic we know nothing about (qi theory was never one of our subjects, sadly). And, honestly, I think that's much too foolhardy to gamble Jing's life on. The Flame is Ahura's and the Ameshas' thing, they were with it for a long time and know it's intricacies so I am not at all optimistic about tricking it into destroying it's Master when we don't even know the most rudimentary things about it.
There is no 'trick'. The thing Wang learned is how to convert chaotic qi to 'pure' ying and yang and back, incorporating what he found out about our condition into his teachings of The Way. The process is nearly instantaneous:
Ah, boy. You are here too. Let me take this opportunity to show you the piece of the answer that you inspired me to seek. Watch.

There is a sudden explosion of light. Gathering all of his power, Ahura moves to attack the Grand Taoist. You do not catch what happens next clearly, but it ends with the Fire Lord wreathed in flame, screaming as he is burned by his own fires. His arms and legs fall limp by his side as he collapses to the ground. Ahura crawls towards his adherents in pain, inching away from the Grand Taoist. His Amesha Spenta, regaining their consciousness, run to his aid and drag him to safety as Wang watches on.
If you can do this, the rest will follow naturally. It does not matter if Ahura retains the control of the Flame or if he does not, it should not burn you. You don't have to know how it works. There would be no impurities for it to burn, safe for Ahura's.

The question here is whether or not you can pull something like this off. But it's the same thing with B where we don't know if there is a way to take in such a vast amount of qi and remain in one piece.
 

Akkudakku

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
1,125
The last two posts are all we need in discuss teritory. Read it and vote on your gut feeling guys
 

Rex Feral

Prophet
Joined
Jan 29, 2013
Messages
1,300
But really, I think the key to the right choice is the answer wang found. He never got to tell us but we can all guess what it was.
 

Akkudakku

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
1,125
But really, I think the key to the right choice is the answer wang found. He never got to tell us but we can all guess what it was.
Enlighten me Rex :)
Floping to A this is my last flop on this vote. Lets do this :)
 
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Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
There's no question that this is possible, the real question is whether we can actually do it. Of course, both options are insane.
:lol: True, true.

But really, I think the key to the right choice is the answer wang found. He never got to tell us but we can all guess what it was.
I'm thinking of this from a different perspective: we are not Wang, who spent decades studying the ways of Tao and the secrets of qi. We are not Lord Zhang who could just overpower this motherfucker and not engage in naked muscle wrestling. We are Xu Jing and we are absolutely different from them both and the only thing I am interested right now are our odds of survival. This is how I am looking at the choices proper:
I'm saying that being familiar with the technique doesn't mean it is guaranteed to be the right choice. Yes, B has an advantage of familiarity over A, it has been proven to work in the update itself, and in this stressful situation that could be the simple edge you need. A has the advantage of not blowing up if you overdo it and finding a new aspect to your qi. Success is defined as not dying, and that's all there is to it.

I don't actually care if you guys pick the wrong choice, all that happens is I wrap up. :lol:
Let's cut down the rhetoric, bros:
A is trying to take a spur of the moment idea of changing the nature of our qi to take control of the Flame away from Ahura and turn it against him.

B is using the techniques we are familiar with and practiced with to drain Ahura and the Flame.

Did I get the gist of, treave?
And treave confirmed that that is indeed the gist of it. Here is why I think A will fail: it is something we have no experience with, namely neiggong theory and Taoist magics. We have never transformed our qi into ying and yang, we have had absolutely no study or preface or any solid ground to work with here. It's basically like trying to fly a helicopter without learning how to fly one.
Moreover, if we do momentarily turn the Flame against Ahura, our own control has to be absolutely perfect and our qi absoutely pure. So not only do we have to pull off a new technique without any practice, we must do so perfectly on our first try. If we don't then the Flame turns against us and we're joining Ahura as a kebab. Also, our qi never liked being controlled or separated from us, and right now is the absolutely worst time to do so.

Here is why I think B will succeed: we have the aptitude, the skills and the practice necessary to pull it off. In other words, we know what we are doing, we know how to do it, the only thing that is causing us to be wary about it is that, just as we're trying to defeat the Flame, the Flame is trying to defeat us. But our qi is indeed potentially bottomless, and this pain that we are experiencing is nothing new to us at all. We have survived this once, we can survive this again. It all boils down to willpower and holding it together, and Jing is great at that. Hell, the description of B speaks for that:
You will not let pain nor a crushed throat stop you; Ahura’s amateur use of his chaotic qi will not match yours. You draw in and absorb everything you can: you will take in the Eternal Flame and Ahura’s qi – all of it – no matter how much it hurts you. You are not sure whether your body will be able to handle the strain of channeling such power, but your willpower will not be shaken by such petty concerns.
Jing is going in it with the attitude of a winner so holding it together is not at all a concern.
Voting A, just so if we die, we can die with a little bit of zen in us.
I'd rather we not die at all.
 

Kashmir Slippers

Magister
Joined
Apr 23, 2011
Messages
1,018
Location
Here, obviously
Neither would I, but this is a 50/50 split. I doubt that we will be able to discern any reason as to why one choice is better than the other.

I can already think of a possible death for each.

A fails: "You tried to make order out of chaos: something that even a god was unable to do. Master Wang would have been proud of your efforts, but in the end you could not match him..."

B fails: "Zhang Jue is a formidable fighter, but even he could not stand up to a god. Your master will miss you longer than he ever did another student, but he moves on..."

I am going completely by my gut here. I really don't know.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Your argument is based on familiarity. Again. It was mentioned that it was not meant to be something that would affect how valid the option would be.

Both choices will have us walking in the unknown territory. The first one involves a local change in our body by a method never attempted before, the second one involves doing a familiar thing on a scale never attempted before. None of this was ever tested.
 

Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Hey Baltika9: You are not sure whether your body will be able to handle the strain of channeling such power

This isn't about willpower. It's also about endurance. Our endurance is kinda shit. Our neigong cap took a massive beating just from exposure to this flame and now that it's in kill mode you want to go manmode and take EVERYTHING (flame + ahura) faster than it can kill you.

Not to mention that the scroll interpretation with B doesn't sound right: All flows from the Origin and returns to the Origin. Where A recognizes that chaos can flow into yin and yang which in turn can return to chaos, B is all about the primordial chaos, leaving one half of the scroll's message out for a dangerously unbalanced equation.
 

Rex Feral

Prophet
Joined
Jan 29, 2013
Messages
1,300
What I actually think is that all this entirely up to treave how it ends.

We can win or fuck up in both cases and there would be plenty of arguments why for each case.

We are entirely at his mercy. Please treave forgive us our arguing as we forgive those that argue against us.

Now why I believe wang's answer holds the key? Because he is the only one who defeated him using knowledge that he attained through studying the nature of our neigong.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
Your argument is based on familiarity. Again. It was mentioned that it was not meant to be something that would affect how valid the option would be.
I'm saying that being familiar with the technique doesn't mean it is guaranteed to be the right choice. Yes, B has an advantage of familiarity over A, it has been proven to work in the update itself, and in this stressful situation that could be the simple edge you need. A has the advantage of not blowing up if you overdo it and finding a new aspect to your qi. Success is defined as not dying, and that's all there is to it.

I don't actually care if you guys pick the wrong choice, all that happens is I wrap up. :lol:
Yes, actually, it may be the difference as this quote quite clearly states.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
9,611
Not to mention that the scroll interpretation with B doesn't sound right: All flows from the Origin and returns to the Origin. Where A recognizes that chaos can flow into yin and yang which in turn can return to chaos, B is all about the primordial chaos, leaving one half of the scroll's message out for a dangerously unbalanced equation.
Not really, Chaos is the Origin both choices speak of, Jing will just be trying to manipulate them in different ways:
A. All flows from the Origin and returns to the Origin. Chaos is the source of both yin and yang, and the two combined can dissolve back into chaos.

B. All flows from the Origin and returns to the Origin. The chaos is infinite in its depth, and boundless in its hunger – in the end, all returns to it, no matter yin or yang.
And yes, in Taoist Mythology, chaos is the Origin of all things.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
For every quote there is another one.

The difference in confidence in between the two is because one is a method he has never attempted before and barely understands at the moment, and the other is something he already knows how to do, but on an unprecedented scale which his body might not be able to handle. It doesn't really serve as a hint as to which is more likely to succeed, however. They're both mad.
If you want to listen to my ramblings why I have the feeling one would work and the other wouldn't, be my guest. But that's all it is - ramblings. I can not logically prove that one is superior to the other.

Ahura has even taken control over the Eternal Flame, as he directs it to destroy you in his pain and anger: your chaos appears to be anathema to the light of the fire, as it seems driven to destroy you at all costs.
Ahura and the Flame here show a very limited understanding of The Way. Something that our master shares, too:
“Vessels are useless,” he said. “All you need to do is to unshackle your qi from the narrow channels that constrain it. Your qi has transcended the need for a path. The harmony of the Way is heresy to your being. Let your strength flow freely; embrace the discord and chaos, and you will become more powerful than you can ever imagine.”
'Anathema', 'heresy'. They think that chaos is something that has to be opposed, not a part of the greater whole. But how can it be true, if all life and existence came to be from chaos?

While Wang had a different idea:
“Xu Jing,” says Wang Zhengchong excitedly, “do you have any idea what you possess?”

“Uh,” you reply nervously, “a heresy to the Way? That is what Master Zhang said.”

“Hah, that is what he would say. No, this is an answer to my prayers. The heavens smile upon me. This is something I have been seeking for decades, something to push the boundaries of knowledge in our universe!”
For me, this comes down to a choice of philosophy. This is why I found Ganymede's argument convincing.

It does not make sense limiting the understanding of chaos in the way B does.
 
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Absinthe

Arcane
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
4,062
Baltika9

I'm not disputing that chaos is the origin of all things. I'm saying there are two states: The united chaos and the divided order. All flows from the Origin and returns to the Origin. The B vote neglects the order while the A vote recognizes the cycle of chaos -> order -> chaos. If we're trying to interpret the scroll here, then I think the philosophy of the A vote more appropriately reflects the scroll's message than the B vote.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
For me, this come down to a choice of philosophy. This is why I found Grimgravy's argument convincing.

It does not make sense limiting the understanding of the chaos in the way B does.
This is where we diverge in reasoning. I am not trying to find the philosophical answer, I am trying to find the option that lets us live. Jing is not a philosopher or a Taoist scholar, we do not have Wang's decades of experience in the field and our neiggong is vastly different from his. And we do not have the answer he came up with from our neiggong, it could have been anything.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
This is where we diverge in reasoning. I am not trying to find the philosophical answer, I am trying to find the option that lets us live. Jing is not a philosopher or a Taoist scholar, we do not have Wang's decades of experience in the field and our neiggong is vastly different from his. And we do not have the answer he came up with from our neiggong, it could have been anything.
Well, this is not Jing's trail of thought. This one is entirely mine.

Look, we don't have Wang's experience or Zhang's endurance or Yang Xue's vast reservoir of qi. On a pure logical level both of the options are suicidal.

Gut feelings and things I consider hints is all I can go with right now.

asxetos A
Azira A
Akkudakku A
ERYFKRAD B
Baltika9 B
Zero Credibility B
profreshinal A
XenomorphII B
RealDDc B
Ganymede A
Nevill A
Rex Feral A
Smashing Axe A
Tribute A
Jester B
Kipeci A
Elfberserker B
Absinthe A
Esquilax A
Kashmir Slippers A
Lambchop19 A
ScubaV A

A - 15
B - 7
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
A has a pretty solid lead, I don't think B is winning this one. Wether or not that's a good thing, I dunno.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
I just don't see b working. We've tried absorbing it already and it's too much for us. Why do more of the same thing that's not working?
 

RealDDc

Learned
Joined
Nov 18, 2013
Messages
236
Location
Germany
This is where we diverge in reasoning. I am not trying to find the philosophical answer, I am trying to find the option that lets us live. Jing is not a philosopher or a Taoist scholar, we do not have Wang's decades of experience in the field and our neiggong is vastly different from his. And we do not have the answer he came up with from our neiggong, it could have been anything.
Not to mention the fact, that Wang overextended and killed himself doing what we now also attempting to do in A.
 

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