[LP CYOA] 傳

[Smashing Axe]

I somewhat agree, but you can't be Lord Ahura Mazda, Bearer of the Eternal Flame, to one guy, and then say "It's cool, you can call me Jing" to another.

In public, no, you can't. But when you are in your private chambers, you do exactlly that.

Shun does not insist on you calling him 'Your Majesty', does he? Yet he is still your liege. Is he a bad leader?

They will revere you publicly, but you leave their personal opinion of you up to them.

We're the exception in Shun's case. We've a lifetime of friendship backing that, and still we're buddy buddy mostly in private.

It works because our loyalty to Shun is not due to tradition but friendship. It doesn't work in this instance because we're undermining the very power structure that is having these guys serve us in the first place.

And yes, the Scholar is able to interact with Shun in a similar way. But the Scholar is pretty much the antithesis of dogma/faith and is loyal solely due to rationality, unlike these religious zealots.

 

[Nevill]

I get the feeling that D might cause friction within the Cult. If everyone knows that we are Lord, that is cohesive, but letting them call us whatever strikes me as inappropriate given the sort of organization that this is. You don't hear any of these guys calling the Holy Maiden by her real name, do you?

That's because they were under Ahura's leadership when they started deifying her. You can make an educated guess how this guy felt about personal freedom. You know, that thing about 'fixing' Yunzi and keeping Qilin a concubine?

I don't want to enforce an order like his. Yunzi started to change things in his absense to the point that they are willing to let her wander off on a vacation in the crucial moment of their previous Lord's resurrection, something that would be unheard of two years ago.

They want to hold the organisation together, so you will be called Lord whenever there are people around. But you won't make them bow to you against their will. They will come to respect you on your own merits.

The right to be called that has to be earned.

And yes, the Scholar is able to interact with Shun in a similar way. But the Scholar is pretty much the antithesis of dogma/faith and is loyal solely due to rationality, unlike these religious zealots.

No, it's because Shun allows it to happen. However rational Yu may be, if Shun insisted, he would have been forced to obey. But Shun never does.

That is also what binds Yu even closer to him.

 

[Smashing Axe]

They want to hold the organisation together, so you will be called Lord whenever there are people around. But you won't make them bow to you against their will. They will come to respect you on your own merits.

It has to be earned.

Part of earning the title involves wearing the title and assuming the role given to us. Insisting on being called Lord and doing deeds worthy of the title of Lord are not mutually exclusive. So why lower ourselves in the first place?

And yes, the Scholar is able to interact with Shun in a similar way. But the Scholar is pretty much the antithesis of dogma/faith and is loyal solely due to rationality, unlike these religious zealots.

No, it's because Shun allows it to happen. However rational Yu may be, if Shun insisted, he would have been forced to obey. But Shun never does.

That is also what binds Yu even closer to him.

Yes, Shun allows it to happen. And yes Yu would change his manner if ordered. And yes this is what keeps Yu binded close to Shun. But Yu is not a religious zealot of the Fire Cult. So the argument is invalid.

 

[Nevill]

Part of earning the title involves wearing the title and assuming the role given to us. Insisting on being called Lord and doing deeds worthy of the title of lord are not mutually exclusive. So why lower ourselves in the first place?

You see it as lowering ourselves, I see it as not jumping the gun.
You are their leader, yet you haven't done a single thing for them. Your responsibilites are greater than just enforcing your title.

Make things easier for them - that's the role actually given to us - and their respect will come naturally.

Yes, Shun allows it to happen. And yes Yu would change his manner if ordered. And yes this is what keeps Yu binded close to Shun. But Yu is not a religious zealot of the Fire Cult.

It is not about your public image. It is how you behave yourself in private.

Vairya, for example, told us that just because he follows us does not mean he likes or trusts us. This is not an attitude of a religious fanatic accepting his God blindly. They are not minions, they have minds and opinions of their own. Not entirely unlike Yu.

They would not mind being guided by a steel hand. Ahura did so, and some of them loved him. But I am not going to run this place as Ahura did, and Yunzi wants to change it, too.

D does not actively break their view of the world like B does, so this is what I am going for.

 

[Akkudakku]

snip

Leading on merits is always better. We got the title by accident basicaly. We have to earn it in their eyes anyway.

 

[Smashing Axe]

You see it as lowering ourselves, I see it as not jumping the gun.
You are their leader, yet you haven't done a single thing for them. Your responsibilites are greater than just enforcing your title.

Make things easier for them - that's the role actually given to us - and their respect will come naturally.

How is it jumping the gun? They were all already calling us lord before we ever opened our mouths. We're going "Oh, actually, call me what you like, I'm not really worthy of the title". That doesn't help. We're capable of rising to the task of our new responsibilities, reinforcing that before action has proved it beyond a doubt is good leadership. It inspires groundless confidence. We're intelligent, charismatic and skilled enough to handle this without it seeming to be mindless bluster.

These guys are practically desperate for us to assume the mantle of true leadership. All you have to see is their despair

It is not about your public image. It is how you behave yourself in private.

Vairya, for example, told us that just because he follows us does not mean he likes or trusts us. This is not an attitude of a religious fanatic accepting his God blindly. They are not minions, they have a mind and opinions of their own. Not entirely unlike Yu.

Even though we killed his master and severely hurt his understanding of the world, he follows us because of dogma instead of taking revenge. That sounds plenty like fanaticism to me.

Would you expect Yu to forgive his family's deaths because dogma told him he should? (Different personal intensity, I know, but the principle is the same). They're not the same people, and should not be handled the same.

 

[Nevill]

How is it jumping the gun? They were all already calling us lord before we ever opened our mouths. We're going "Oh, actually, call me what you like, I'm not really worthy of the title". That doesn't help. We're capable of rising to the task of our new responsibilities, reinforcing that before action has proved it beyond a doubt is good leadership.

Well, this is jumping the gun, when you are calling yourself capable before actually doing anything of a sort.

Even though we killed his master and severely hurt his understanding of the world, he follows us because of dogma instead of taking revenge. That sounds plenty like fanaticism to me.

Dogma? The Eternal Flame is real and it's will is tangible. It is what unified and guided their people so far. He can't defy it - if he does, the Fire Cult as the organisation will be finished.

There is much more to it than labeling them all fanatics and calling it a day.

Edit:

It inspires groundless confidence. We're intelligent, charismatic and skilled enough to handle this without it seeming to be mindless bluster.

Their people need a symbol to unite behind - weaker people like when there is someone claiming they know what they are doing, - but Amesha Spenta themselves are not going to be impressed just by the symbol. They will need results. If they get them, they will respect you, if not, your insistence on following formalities will not do you any good. What is the point, then?

I know what you are going for. It works, somewhat. It's just that I don't like it.

Oh, and about Yu. The question would remain open if taking revenge meant losing Chanfeng and everything else he loved as well.

 

[Baltika9]

Edit:

It inspires groundless confidence. We're intelligent, charismatic and skilled enough to handle this without it seeming to be mindless bluster.

Their people need a symbol to unite behind - weaker people like when there is someone claiming they know what they are doing, - but Amesha Spenta themselves are not going to be impressed just by the symbol. They will need results. If they get them, they will respect you, if not, your insistence on following formalities will not do you any good. What is the point, then?

I know what you are going for. It works, somewhat. It's just that I don't like it.

Well, here's the thing: this choice determines our relationship with them for a long while to come. We can't say "meh, call me what you want" and then come back and start demanding to be called and respected as their Lord, and expect to be taken seriously. The Ameshas are distraught (Vahista's meltdown is hilarious. He went from the sternest, most disciplined Amesha to a sobbing wreck. I feel sorry for the guy...) and their whole world is off-kilter. Stepping up to the plate, even if it's a small and tentative step, will mean a lot in how they view and treat us. For now, they will respect our title. As time progresses, they will start to respect our deeds. 1A is a direct route to that.

 

[Esquilax]

We're the exception in Shun's case. We've a lifetime of friendship backing that, and still we're buddy buddy mostly in private.

It works because our loyalty to Shun is not due to tradition but friendship. It doesn't work in this instance because we're undermining the very power structure that is having these guys serve us in the first place.

And yes, the Scholar is able to interact with Shun in a similar way. But the Scholar is pretty much the antithesis of dogma/faith and is loyal solely due to rationality, unlike these religious zealots.

Good point. I understand the appeal of a casual, free-wheeling approach because that's how Master Yao, Master Zhang, the Grand Taoist, Qi Liuwu and the Abbot interacted with us, but Jing is a free-spirited type, while these people appreciate structure and discipline. Just because Master Zhang didn't give a fuck about formalities so long as we were a bad motherfucker worthy of being his disciple doesn't mean that it's the right approach with these guys. Our past experiences might be blinding us in this regard.

You are their leader, yet you haven't done a single thing for them. Your responsibilites are greater than just enforcing your title.

Make things easier for them - that's the role actually given to us - and their respect will come naturally.

The role wasn't given to us, we were chosen for it. I think that's an important distinction; they follow us out of faith and duty, and now that this is our role, we have to jump into it with both feet. Being their leader in this case isn't about what you have or haven't done - the point is that we got here and we have to strive towards the ideal that they have as what a Lord should be. From what little we know of them, a Lord isn't the kind of guy who walks around like an average Joe.

Vairya, for example, told us that just because he follows us does not mean he likes or trusts us. This is not an attitude of a religious fanatic accepting his God blindly. They are not minions, they have minds and opinions of their own. Not entirely unlike Yu.

Alright, Vairya was straight with us and didn't conceal his disappointment that Ahura died and that we replaced him. But come on, the man is most definitely a fanatic! We'd be dead if they weren't! They have opinions of their own, but for the part of Vairya, Vahista and probably Haurvatat and the rest of the Amesha Spenta, they'd probably prefer some semblance of order and stability given how shitty the past few years have been for the Cult.

But I get your point - some people might appreciate the more casual approach as well, and these guys aren't all automatons who exist only to obey the Fire Lord.

They would not mind being guided by a steel hand. Ahura did so, and some of them loved him. But I am not going to run this place as Ahura did, and Yunzi wants to change it, too.

D does not actively break their view of the world like B does, so this is what I am going for.

Ah, but this isn't about what you want. Leadership is about what they want. And what they want is a strong leader that they call their Lord. But hey, maybe a gentler way is also possible; Ahura's qi was described many times as being "oppressive" and they could have been chained by his will so long that they've forgotten what freedom feels like.

Leading on merits is always better. We got the title by accident basicaly. We have to earn it in their eyes anyway.

Ah, but we weren't given leadership based on merits, we were chosen. That is a big difference, because this is a matter of faith, not of rationality, and how we react to it is important. Do we react by becoming the ideal that they expect a Lord to be, or do we just keep testing their patience by just going along with this charade of being just some regular guy?

 

[Esquilax]

Well, here's the thing: this choice determines our relationship with them fora long while to come. We can't say "meh, call me what you want" and then come back and start demanding to be called and respected as their Lord, and expect to be taken seriously. The Ameshas are distraught (Vahista's meltdown is hilarious. He went from the sternest, most disciplined Amesha to a sobbing wreck. I feel sorry for the guy...) and their whole world is off-kilter. Stepping up to the plate, even if it's a small and tentative step, will mean a lot in how they view and treat us. For now, they will respect our title. As time progresses, they will start to respect our deeds. 1A is a direct route to that.

Most of the time, the logic that you should earn your way to the top and gain respect before you become leader, not after. In this case, I don't think that applies; this is a matter of faith, and we were given this role.

Men must be governed!



Still, Ahura's iron fist has been in charge of these guys for a long-ass time, it's quite possible that they're so accustomed to this sort of strong rule that they don't really see any alternative to it... yet. But, in a situation where we've fucked things up rapidly for them, I'd prefer to maintain as much of a status quo and a sense of normalcy for them as possible.

 

[Nevill]

We can't say "meh, call me what you want" and then come back and start demanding to be called and respected as their Lord

You are contradicting yourself. A has you demanding being called titles. D has you working for them, first.
You do not demand being taken seriously. You do something that makes them take you seriously. That is how you earn the respect.

The Ameshas are distraught (Vahista's meltdown is hilarious. He went from the sternest, most disciplined Amesha to a sobbing wreck. I feel sorry for the guy...) and their whole world is off-kilter.

Well, I don't think that this is how you restore their faith.

Moreover, I don't like Jing enjoying making people call him titles against their will.

And what they want is a strong leader that they call their Lord.

And yet some of them do not want to call you that. Which is where this DISCUSS stems from.

Really, though, this point is relatively minor. We are not making fun of their faith by having them call us LORD MAN TIGER PIG, after all.

But, in a situation where we've fucked things up rapidly for them, I'd prefer to maintain as much of a status quo and a sense of normalcy for them as possible.

Which is why I let it up to them. They want their comfort zone, they can get it.

The younger members, the ones that grew up without Ahura, see things a bit differently. This is the direction I'd like the Cult to take.

 

[Smashing Axe]

How is it jumping the gun? They were all already calling us lord before we ever opened our mouths. We're going "Oh, actually, call me what you like, I'm not really worthy of the title". That doesn't help. We're capable of rising to the task of our new responsibilities, reinforcing that before action has proved it beyond a doubt is good leadership.

Well, this is jumping the gun, when you are calling yourself capable before actually doing anything of a sort.

Is a plumber jumping the gun when someone calls him up to ask if he can fix a leaky pipe?

Even though we killed his master and severely hurt his understanding of the world, he follows us because of dogma instead of taking revenge. That sounds plenty like fanaticism to me.

Dogma? The Eternal Flame is real and it's will is tangible. It is what unified and guided their people so far. He can't defy it - if he does, the Fire Cult as the organisation will be finished.

There is much more to it than labeling them all fanatics and calling it a day.

Yeah, that's pretty much religious dogma. You go against it and you've got some severe cognitive dissonance. They're so fanatically devouted to their cause that they've made us their messiah rather than face contradiction.

Edit:

It inspires groundless confidence. We're intelligent, charismatic and skilled enough to handle this without it seeming to be mindless bluster.

Their people need a symbol to unite behind - weaker people like when there is someone claiming they know what they are doing, - but Amesha Spenta themselves are not going to be impressed just by the symbol. They will need results. If they get them, they will respect you, if not, your insistence on following formalities will not do you any good. What is the point, then?

I know what you are going for. It works, somewhat. It's just that I don't like it.

Fair enough. I still don't see how you think the alternative is practical comparatively.

Oh, and about Yu. The question would remain open if taking revenge meant losing Chanfeng and everything else he loved as well.

Maybe. They're still so entirely different from one another that comparing leadership styles is pointless.

 

[Baltika9]

We can't say "meh, call me what you want" and then come back and start demanding to be called and respected as their Lord

You are contradicting yourself. A has you demanding being called titles. D has you working for them, first.
You do not demand being taken seriously. You do something that makes them take you seriously. That is how you earn the respect.

Not exactly correct. We are Lord Ahura Mazda of the Fire Temple, like it or not. If we just tell them D, we are telling them we don't really give a shit either way and they can stuff tradition up their asses.

And what they want is a strong leader that they call their Lord.

And yet some of them do not want to call you that. Which is where this DISCUSS stems from.

Really, though, this point is relatively minor. We are not making fun of their faith by having them call us LORD MAN TIGER PIG, after all.

Against his will? Bro, what are you talking about?

 

[Nevill]

Against his will? Bro, what are you talking about?

This, for instance:

Vahista grits his teeth. “Loathe as I am to do so, I must call you L… Lor… L-Lord,” spits out the man finally, a grimace on his face.

 

[Absinthe]

Aye, voting

1D
2A>C

 

[Elfberserker]

Aye, voting 1D.

Anyone have an updated tally?

current one:

What to call:

Akkudakku - D
Jester - D
ERYFKRAD - E(Spud)
Lambchop19 - A
asxetos - A
Smashing Axe - E(Eternal Flame)>A>D
Rex Feral - D
Nevill - D
Kipeci - A>D
Ganymede - D
Anabanana - E(Eternal Flame)>D
Baltika9 - A
GreyViper - A
Tribute - D
Esquilax - A
Kz3r0 - A
Elfberserker - A
Zero Credibility - D
Kashmir Slippers - D
Azira - A
TOME - D
XenomorphII - D
Absinthe - D
Fangshi - A>D
Tigranes - A


Current tally:

A - 11
D - 11
E - 1 (Spud), 2 (Eternal Flame)

Post-flop:

A - 10
D - 12
E - 1 (Spud)

***

Where to go:

Akkudakku - C>B
Jester - B
ERYFKRAD - E
Lambchop19 - B>D>A
asxetos - C
Smashing Axe - A>B
Rex Feral - C>B>A
Nevill - C
Kipeci - B
Ganymede - C
Anabanana - B>C
Baltika9 - A
GreyViper - B
Tribute - A>B
Esquilax - C
Kz3r0 - B
Elfberserker - C
Zero Credibility - B>C
Kashmir Slippers - C>B
Azira - C
TOME - C
XenomorphII - C
Absinthe - 2A>C
Fangshi - A>C
Tigranes - A>B

Current tally:

A - 6
B - 7
C - 11
E - 1

Post-flop:

A - 2
B - 9
C - 11
E - 1

Edit: added Absinthe vote to list and modified the tally and flops.

Edit, Edit: The tally has just raw votes, no flops added.

Edit: Added Fansgi and Tigranes first votes

Edit: Changed Tigranes vote to his current choice.

 

[Baltika9]

Against his will? Bro, what are you talking about?

This, for instance:

Vahista grits his teeth. “Loathe as I am to do so, I must call you L… Lor… L-Lord,” spits out the man finally, a grimace on his face.

Sorry, I thought you meant Jing's will.

 

[Baltika9]

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the Ameshas' whole view has just been shaken, and we really need to give these guys some stability (Esquilax is right on the money here). Vahista, his current meltdown notwithstanding, is the most strict and disciplined of these guys from what we've seen of them, tradition is important to him. I think that Di will just cause resentment on his part: not only is his previous Lord dead, the new one doesn't even take his responsibilities seriously!* We are already Lord, now we have to act like it. That means accepting the title.


*Which will just cause the Temple's upkeep to skyrocket due to the amounts of booze he'll consume. Really, we gotta introduce him to Sword Saint and Qi Liuwu...uh, under more friendly terms.

 

[Smashing Axe]

Vahista doesn't like it, yeah. He doesn't like it because he thinks we're a shithead.

He thinks we're a shithead not because of our deeds, or lack thereof. But because we just killed his god-head and replaced him.

Letting him call us shithead isn't going to improve his opinion of us. Replacing what he lost will over time.

Him calling us lord is a beginning to replacing what he lost. Willing holy servitude.

 

[Esquilax]

Damn, I feel really torn between heading to Tianshan and heading towards Emei/Chang'an:

Tianshan Range, near Tujue territory. The place where golden fox leaves are harvested by the masked Xueguizi. Their leader is called the Tianshan Child Elder, a secretive and mysterious little girl that is said to have lived for more than a hundred years, eternally unaging. The Xueguizi are also a sect that is said to focus strongly on yin-based inner strength techniques, and have great knowledge of neigong.
...
If you practice the Xuanming Jiuyin skill first, your yin energy will increase, making the techniques more powerful

The Nine Yin Holy Art manual isn't in Tianshan, but given the Xueguizi's knowledge of inner strength, particularly of the yin-based sort, I think that these guys would be more likely than anyone to know exactly where it is. The real question is, can we head over there, then return to the Central Plains before one of these orthodox pugilists manages to snatch it from us? They definitely seem like the people that would be most likely to know about this, as it's their specialty.

Also, treave, back at the tournament at Dukezong, it was said that Xuxian the monk had more inner strength than Jing. Would they be about even at this point?

 

[Fangshi]

I really would not take a too familiar approach to these people yet (once they come to respect us and not just our title then we might get a little friendlier). Their religion is all about order and we have essentially undermined it. A little continuity will be good for them:

So for the first choice A>D

As for a destination I still want to see the mountains but Emei would also be nice.

A>C


1.D>A 2.A>C

 

[Tigranes]

AA > AB for now.

 

[Nevill]

I think that Di will just cause resentment on his part: not only is his previous Lord dead, the new one doesn't even take his responsibilities seriously!* We are already Lord, now we have to act like it. That means accepting the title.

You are arguing against B here. D has you accept the title as long as they are willing to call you that.
And most of them are - to maintain the order.

I see it mostly affecting if you yourself enjoy it or not.

Letting him call us shithead isn't going to improve his opinion of us. Replacing what he lost will over time.

Ah, but forcing him will not shift his opinion either.
You said it. With time, he will accept us. It is for the good of the Cult.

 

[Baltika9]

I think that Di will just cause resentment on his part: not only is his previous Lord dead, the new one doesn't even take his responsibilities seriously!* We are already Lord, now we have to act like it. That means accepting the title.

You are arguing against B here. D has you accept the title as long as they are willing to call you that.

This is how I see them.
A, we take the Responsible approach.
B, we take the friendly approach as in "I'm your BRO, not your Lord."
C, we're just fucking with them.
D, we basically tell them "I don't care what your traditions dictate, call me what you want."

 

[Akkudakku]

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the Ameshas' whole view has just been shaken, and we really need to give these guys some stability (Esquilax is right on the money here). Vahista, his current meltdown notwithstanding, is the most strict and disciplined of these guys from what we've seen of them, tradition is important to him. I think that Di will just cause resentment on his part: not only is his previous Lord dead, the new one doesn't even take his responsibilities seriously!* We are already Lord, now we have to act like it. That means accepting the title.
Jester, ERYFKRAD, Akkudakku, Rex Feral, Zero Credibility, Ganymede, Anabanana, Tribute, Kashmir Slippers, TOME, XenomorphII, would you guys be willing to consider a 1A flop?


*Which will just cause the Temple's upkeep to skyrocket due to the amounts of booze he'll consume. Really, we gotta introduce him to Sword Saint and Qi Liuwu...uh, under more friendly terms.

We are Ahura Mazda but we are not the last one that ruled here. A is not in line with Jing's character and going D won't bring the world down, while going A without merit is just acting like an ass. The ones that insist on calling us Lord will do, the ones who do not will later do because we are not abandoning them. Even if D = a little instability at the beginning it also means a lot more respect down the line. We do not order them to change the whole doctrine, we are just saying that we will grow to the role that we must act.

Maybe the wording of D is a little different than we intend, but we can ask treave to do it the way we see it right? It is more in line what we want than B.