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Smashing Axe

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Divinity: Original Sin
I see a number of problems with A, and A2 in particular.

1) I find it strange that Smashing Axe, the same person who warned us against trustin Bai Jiutian, votes for the choice that hinges on BJ supporting us against the interests of his own sect. He made his unwillingness to openly involve Huashan quite clear. If he steps down at any given moment, Miazhou alone will not be enough to convince people.

2) The choice clearly mentions potential violence. Given that Lingshu is a goody-two shoes, I can't see her maintaining her resolve if people start getting seriously hurt. She might concede for the benefit of the sect - even now BJ only managed to convince her by mentioning that Sanjiao will run the sect into the ground (though of course she might not have listened to a word of what he was saying).

3) If at any given point she loses confidence, you will have to intervene on her behalf or back away and write the whole adventure off as a loss. And intervening in front of all the masters is probably not a good idea. Bai Jiutian can probably support Lingshu openly, but he can't support you. Unless you make sure that people can't fight properly, you risk being overrun.

I see that people want to make the sects fight each other, but you might be requiring far too much from Bai Jiutian, and relying on his support. I have to remind people that asking a person to do something that goes against their interests or beliefs is not a guaranteed success, as evidenced by the Sword Saint when we asked him to intervene on the behalf of the Fire Cult.
AB>CB>BA
I must warn against trusting BJ here. I'm fairly sure he has his own agenda that goes beyond the obvious "I really like the girl". I reckon BJ is seeking a political alliance with Qingcheng, so he plans to disrupt the wedding himself. If we go along with what BJ suggests, if we take the obvious route in the upcoming decisions, we're going to be made into BJ's patsy. He's going to use us thoroughly. We can't let him gain an advantage, but neither can we allow Songfeng to be married to the Qingcheng head.

So what we need to do instead is set BJ up in a position where we can betray him. We should aim to humiliate BJ and the Qingcheng head both. So Songfeng won't marry either of the men. We should incorporate a scheme within the scheme we incorporate with BJ, and minimise personal risk while putting the brunt on our temporary ally.

We need to out Theseus Theseus here bros.

How is this contrary to what I want? If he backs out, he loses face with Songfeng and we can try a different tact. While I still don't trust BJ, I also have reason to believe he's not that good of an actor, and the information we have been supplied is at least partially genuine, in which case a full fledged betrayal in this instance is unlikely. The number of supporters is an unknown element, but it definitely has a lot of potential, at the possible cost of returning to the status quo. The benefit of B and C are much more questionable. Songfeng eventually reclaims her power? She goes and marries BJ, Huashan has another ally. C just humiliates one Machiavellian guy who we now know pretty surely is not allied with Huashan.

I have no problem with potential violence, especially if we can pit orthodox against orthodox. If somehow Songfeng decides to concede, we don't lose too much by just running away. I doubt she will be able to intervene however once fists start fighting

See above. It's not a guaranteed success. But it also has the greatest potential payoff, with little cost. It's the best option compared to the alternatives, which are themselves subject to a lot of ifs and maybes.
 

Absinthe

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Really even if Song Lingshu comes back after running away, that's going to be one awkward confrontation with Mao Sanjiao and knowing Mao, he's going to seize control of the entire sect while Song Lingshu is away so when she comes back she's already lost.

A2 is the best option right now since laxatives don't help us where we need them the most (vs. masters), but they will hurt our diplomacy.
 

kazgar

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Location
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A2

This ain't trollin time, we're working with (some) of the orthodox world here, gotta play by their rules.

If it don't work, we'll go back to doing it our way.
 

Baltika9

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Messages
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I dunno, I feel like we're overthinking this shit and B1 is the best option. We strike the iron while it's hot, grab Lingshu and cause Sanjiao a huge loss of face with laxatives, and by the time they realize what happened, we'll be gone like a fart in the wind.
 

Absinthe

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See, B1 is certainly workable, but the problem is that the loss of face is pretty irrelevant when he's the only one left to call the shots. And when that happens he's going to consolidate all power firmly under his thumb so that by the time Song Lingshu is back, she has no real options. We'd have to assassinate Mao Sanjiao on the return trip.
 

Baltika9

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Not really as ineffective as you make it out to be. At the end of the day, he'll have a public rebuke my Miss Song, a missing bride and the whole party shitting all over his expensive carpet.
With the culprit nowhere to be seen. Yeah, I think I'm going with B1. With the lukewarm support we'll gather for her, I doubt Miss Song will go through with it, especially if BJ doesn't speak up, which he/she said he/she has all the reasons not to do.
 

Absinthe

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No he won't because if a public rebuke by Miss Song is to occur, then you should be voting A2.

I'm not saying that B1 doesn't have its own appeal (Song Lingshu joins the party) but I am saying that it doesn't accomplish the primary goal of ensuring she retains control of Qingcheng.

And we really need allies in the orthodox world right now.
 

Baltika9

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Ahem.
B. You will convince Song Lingshu to run off with you, since Bai Jiutian is not willing to take her. You will have her leave behind a message stating why she ran off, and that she does not approve of Mao Sanjiao’s leadership. Then, you will have to see how the Qingcheng Sect reacts as a whole; hopefully, they will begin to distance themselves from Mao Sanjiao, allowing Lingshu the opportunity to return and regain control.
And it has the benefit of showing us how deep his corruption goes, how much they actually care for Lingshu and gives her a good way back in the future. It's all in the choice's text.
 

Absinthe

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A note doesn't sound very public, and it certainly isn't good enough against Mao Sanjiao. He has far too much control for that. He'd probably pay lip service to Song Lingshu (sorry, let me reform my ways, and by my ways, I mean the sect, and by reform, I mean bring it under my control) while he outmaneuvers her supporters and seizes control.

The problem is that Song Lingshu's word doesn't carry enough authority against Mao Sanjiao when she's no longer there but he is. And this man has been putting the moves for two years now to bring the sect under his control. One note isn't going to do nearly enough to undermine his authority, assuming it even comes to light. If he is to be opposed, it has to be done loudly, publicly while Song Lingshu is still the leader of the sect.
 

Baltika9

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The problem is that Song Lingshu's word doesn't carry enough authority against Mao Sanjiao when she's no longer there but he is. And this man has been putting the moves for two years now to bring the sect under his control. One note isn't going to do nearly enough to undermine his authority, assuming it even comes to light. If he is to be opposed, it has to be done loudly, publicly while Song Lingshu is still the leader of the sect.
Which is why we disgrace him and his whole gathering with laxatives in B1, not many will take him seriously after that.
My whole beef with A is that the support we will gather will be so tenuous and lukewarm that Lingshu may just back the fuck out at the last second, and then we're fucking done.
 

Absinthe

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Except he won't particularly be to blame for the laxatives. His rep will certainly take a hit, but we're the ones who take that fall. If we're going to shame him, we'd have to go all the way with C. That's a loss of face that's just too massive to be taken seriously afterwards. B1 is more of an embarassing moment on the radar which just galvanizes the sects against us again.
 

Baltika9

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treave, can we use BJ's political skills with B to make sure Lingshu's letter gets public and spun up to huge proportions? He's exactly the type of mastermind in that field to pull it off. Since it's pretty much his plan, I think he has plenty of reasons to go along with that.
 

Esquilax

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Which is why we disgrace him and his whole gathering with laxatives in B1, not many will take him seriously after that.
My whole beef with A is that the support we will gather will be so tenuous and lukewarm that Lingshu may just back the fuck out at the last second, and then we're fucking done.

Laxatives and a very strongly worded letter?! Why, the Eight Sects will be clamoring for him to step down now! Now he's fucked!


:rage:

My dreams of glorious trolls to come have been crushed by Kz3r0. To detect and be resistant to poisons, pugilists rely upon their inner strength. The stronger a fighter's inner strength, the better they are at noticing it and resisting it:

At the Huashan Summit, if you fall that easily to poisons and tricks you aren't much of a fighter in the first place. The most powerful exponents have enough mastery of their qi to gain a high level of immunity to poisons as well as detect their presence in things like water, food or wine. Besides, they are there to see who are the strongest pugilists, not to kill each other off (except by accident). It really defeats the purpose of cheating in such a tournament.

Tulu Huodu has, amongst many other martial arts techniques, a powerful neigong which allows him to deliver very potent poisonous blows via his qi, which is legitimate since he has to land the strike in the first place and since everyone knows that he has such a trick up his sleeve. It's fair as far as they are concerned, since the powerful ones will be able to resist it with their own qi and strike back with blows that are just as powerful in other aspects.

I don't know which of the Sect Heads here would be able to detect laxatives in wine, but if even one of them notices, our plan goes tits-up. Fuck, I have no idea what to pick, and laxatives seem pretty retarded with B since we won't be there anyways. They still work with C, just don't target the Masters. But now my entire motivation to go with C is gone altogether. We've become lame, bros. Being a faction head now means we have to look out for people. The YOLOTIGER is dead, long live the RESPONSIBILITYTIGER!
 

Baltika9

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Except he won't particularly be to blame for the laxatives. His rep will certainly take a hit, but we're the ones who take that fall. If we're going to shame him, we'd have to go all the way with C. That's a loss of face that's just too massive to be taken seriously afterwards. B1 is more of an embarassing moment on the radar which just galvanizes the sects against us again.
Uh, how is anyone going to know we were even there if we go the B route and just nab Lingshu? His party still shits their pants, his bride is still gone and the man's rep is in shambles. No one even knows we're there.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
treave, can we use BJ's political skills with B to make sure Lingshu's letter gets public and spun up to huge proportions? He's exactly the type of mastermind in that field to pull it off. Since it's pretty much his plan, I think he has plenty of reasons to go along with that.

You want to leave the publicization of the note to him? Sure.
 

Absinthe

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Baltika9, dude, at this stage our troll rep is so massive that if someone else did it we'd probably get the credit anyway.

Hey profreshinal, care to flop to A2 now that we know you can't administer laxatives to masters?
 

Baltika9

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We've become lame, bros. Being a faction head now means we have to look out for people. The YOLOTIGER is dead, long live the RESPONSIBILITYTIGER!
Well, yeah, we have more than ten thousand lives depending on us now. YOLOTIGERing needs to be put on a tight leash now.
But, ere they come, bid them o'er-read these letters
And well consider of them. Make good speed. Exit page
How many thousands of my poorest subjects
Are at this hour asleep! O sleep, O gentle sleep,
Nature's soft nurse, how have I frightened thee,
That thou no more will weigh my eyelids down,
And steep my senses in forgetfulness?
Why rather, sleep, liest thou in smoky cribs,
Upon uneasy pallets stretching thee,
And hush'd with buzzing night-flies to thy slumber,
Than in the perfum'd chambers of the great,
Under the canopies of costly state,
And lull'd with sound of sweetest melody?
O thou dull god, why liest thou with the vile
In loathsome beds, and leav'st the kingly couch
A watch-case or a common 'larum-bell?
Wilt thou upon the high and giddy mast
Seal up the ship-boy's eyes, and rock his brains
In cradle of the rude imperious surge,
And in the visitation of the winds,
Who take the ruffian billows by the top,
Curling their monstrous heads, and hanging them
With deafing clamour in the slippery clouds,
That with the hurly death itself awakes?
Canst thou, O partial sleep, give thy repose
To the wet sea-boy in an hour so rude;
And in the calmest and most stillest night,
With all appliances and means to boot,
Deny it to a king? Then, happy low, lie down!
Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown.
I know it sucks, I'd personally love to pull of C1 and go all Bugs Bunny on his ass:

But, just no.
 

Baltika9

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Baltika9, dude, at this stage our troll rep is so massive that if someone else did it we'd probably get the credit anyway.
Uh, what? As far as anyone knows, MTP is somewhere between China's eastern and western borders. Possibly abroad. How are they going to balme us when we;'re not even there? Dude, you are rationalizing here.

Moreover, please explain to me how you are going to persuade the sect reps to side with Miss Song (only two of those will matter anyway, the Abbess and BJ) and what makes you confident you will actually succeed?
 

Absinthe

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Our troll rep is massive enough that if people were to name suspects for a stunt like this (laxatives, Qingcheng head gone), we'd be at the top of the list. At that point rumors will also start flying about a one-eyed man who came to work at Qingcheng as a possible MTP.

Emei and Qingcheng have close ties. Bai Jiutian is basically pigeonholed into it since he's already affirmed that marrying Mao Sanjiao is the wrong decision; he can't quite back out at this stage. But even without that Song Lingshu has to press her authority to retain control of the sect. That simple truth does not change. It's her own sect to begin with, so the support of fellow sects is secondary to Song Lingshu pressing her case.
 

Baltika9

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He totally can, though:
You nod, and say, “You will be helping out with that, I presume?” Bai Jiutian looks aghast at the idea, as if it is utterly stupid. “Of course not. If I interfere openly with an internal matter of Qingcheng, it would look like Huashan has something to do with it!” Song Lingshu ponders the proposal for a while, scratching her head in an unmaidenly manner. “Look, I don’t think it is going to work out that easily. I just feel like Uncle Mao will try whatever he can to stay on top. They're not going to listen to my words that easily.”
Whatever support we gather will be extremely tenuous. It's the Abbess and maybe BJ, who is really on the fence about this. Wudang and Shaolin sent reps whose words won't count for much, if we can sway them in the first place.
Wait a sec, treave, when are we going to sneak off with Lingshu in B1? Right before the ceremony and the laxatives, or earlier?
 
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Absinthe

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We can certainly try to sway those reps anyway. Even if their word doesn't carry that much weight, if they add it, then that still creates more pressure on Mao Sanjiao. As for Bai Jiutian, when it comes to it, it's better for his interests that Huashan looks like they have something to do with it while he stands up for a noble maiden than that he lets Mao Sanjiao become a competitor to Huashan's dominance. This is precisely Bai Jiutian's brand of noble behavior: self-serving, but with noble justifications.
 

treave

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Codex 2012
Shortly before the ceremony, when all attention is focused on the main building. Too many people wandering about right now.
 

Tigranes

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10,350
Yeah, upon reflection, the letter thing is a pretty critical blow against B. It just won't do much to stop Mao Sanjiao, and there's not much to hope that Song Lingshu will have a good plan to make a triumnphant return and oust him. And no, laxatives won't make one iota of difference for her chances, because come on, one laxative affair destroys the political capital of a sect head? No way.

I'm finding it hard to be convinced with any chance. A relies too much on BJ, C may go all to hell if sufficient numbers of powerful pugilists resist the laxative.
 

Nevill

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Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Let's try and use our imagination, shall we?

Song Lingshu: - I refuse! This marriage is forced on me by my uncle to further his own goals, and I refuse to be a part of it.
Mao Sanjiao: - This is an outrage! This is a setup!
Miazhou: - Calm down, Sanjiao. Let the girl decide for herself.
MS: - You! This is all your doing, is it not? Your declining monastery could not bear to see the neighbour prosper, so you conspired against me!
Miazhou: - There is nothing of a sort! People know the Emei are not interested in earthly things.
Liu Ye & Su Cheng: (in unison) - No, we don't!
Beggar You: (- You'll owe me 1000 taels for this...)
MS: (- Deal!)
Beggar You: - Clearly this is a conspiracy against our respected host by some of the lesser factions.
SL: - This is not a conspiracy! This is my sincere will! Why nobody believes me? Bai!
BJ: - The girl does not appear to be willing...
Twin Flowers: (- Bai, WTF are you doing?)
zhang: - Please continue, dear shixiong. (I've always wondered how it must feel to be the only disciple of the ruler of the pugilistic world.)
BJ: - Eh, I would not presume I know too much about it, really.
MS: - Oh, I see what you are doing. You have convinced Song to join your monastery, hoping that you could get a piece of the power that I so dutifully aquired in all those years! In fact, I remember now that you always had that insufferable brat Yifang follow her since her childhood and poison her with your stupid ideas. That's right! The nun! My servants told me she visited the bride yesterday. Is that what you had planned, Miazhou?
Yfang: - I only did what is right!
MS: - Guards! GUARDS!!
zhang: - Now, let us not be too hasty, esteemed host. No need to get violent with a pretty girl. We only need to ask her who made her do this... privately. (tries to escort Yifang out of the room, bumps into Cao'er).
Cao'er: - *murderous stare*
zhang: - And who might you be, beauty? (beat) Oh... Is your boyfriend around, too?
SL: - Let them go! Nobody made me do this! I chose so myself! You tell them, Jing!

A) You tell them. If the girl does not want it, they are not going to force her. You jump on the scene and have fun (+1 swords, +1 spears, +1 chairs, +1 neigong, +1 butthole)
B) This is not working out. You grab Lingshu and make a dash for it. Surely your girls are competent enough to find a way out themselves.
C) This is not working out. You grab you girls and storm out of the room, leaving Lingshu on her own. You never truly liked her anyway.

Let's not pretend that this is not a possibility. You are trying to manipulate Bai to implicate Huashan in this where there are not enough other participants for his voice not to stand out, and he is completely against the idea. You will try to get Emei to speak up when plenty of Qingcheng disciples know Yifang as Emei nun who is a close friend to Miss Song, Yifang is openly present during the banquet, and she visited Lingshu just yesterday. It is entirely possible she will get involved in this. In any arguement that might follow, Qingcheng will have 4 votes of confidence straight away, out of 6 that matter.

This is not a 'diplomatic solution' as some of you make it out to be. This is going to be a bloodbath with our only potential ally Miazhou on the receiving end. 'Splitting the sects' and making them eliminate each other is a wonderful goal, but starting with the ones that are semi-friendly is not.

Fuck it, I'll flop to B2>C1 if it helps prevent this trainwreck.
 
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