Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

[LP CYOA] 傳

Esquilax

Arcane
Joined
Dec 7, 2010
Messages
4,833
How would it help? The Emperor can not oppose the same Eight Sects that control almost all of the economy in the Empire and contribute a sizeable amount to its military forces. He can't support either us or the Fire Cult directly. So what exactly do you propose?

Well, given that our buddy Jixuan Wuni and Shun are both in high positions of power in Tufan and Tang, respectively, they could stand united and make an effort to at least postpone the Eight Sects from going on a cross border excursion on the pretense of avoiding a diplomatic incident. Fangshi suggested something like this earlier, and that might be a good idea. I mean, we have two powerful people who think that Jing is a good guy and are willing to help us. Of course neither of them can help us openly, but if we can delay the Eight Sects for long enough, the Fire Cult can prepare a proper defense.

Of course, we're probably thinking ridiculously far ahead here. We'll cross that bridge when we reach it.

They don't control all of the economy, though. They do keep order in and around the cities and mountains of where they're established, and they are ridiculously powerful relative to non-pugilists (not to mention that they have a lot of influence among the people and other shadier things) but I think our perception is somewhat colored by the fact that Jing doesn't really care about much that's wholly unrelated to pugilism. He has been looking for a way to curb their influence and while I agree that he probably wouldn't publicly use the military against them or anything on that sort of level were they to try attack the Fire Cult and he knew that we headed it up, there's no reason to think that he wouldn't be providing any sort of support to us. Look to the situation with the Wudu Cult, he can figure out ways to support his friends without succumbing to external pressures.

Where do you think all the money in China comes from? The rural areas bring in taxes and food, and the Eight Sects have done the Empire's job during Taisheng's reign. I'm sure that Emperor Xuande is turning things around, but he's only been Emperor for two years at this point. Gonna take a while to unfuck things:

The next day, he crowned himself Emperor Taisheng.

The continuous battles taking place across the country had exacted a serious toll on the treasury. As a response, the government of the new Emperor began enacting policies to decentralize the bureaucracy, giving the prefects leeway to do what they will as long as taxes to the Imperial Court were paid on time.

This, coupled with the concentration of military power in the Imperial Court’s hands and the summary execution of the entire families of prefects that did not heed Emperor Taisheng’s instructions upon the pretext of corruption, had the effect of galvanizing the prefectures to ensure the taxes were submitted duly in order to avoid the capital’s gaze from falling upon them.

Of course, this only meant that corruption began to take place in other ways…

...
Although the Eight Sects paid homage to His Imperial Majesty’s rule, you get the feeling that it may not be more than lip service. You begin to understand why Shun had been concerned about the pugilists. Though, to be fair, from your observations thus far the government has been rather ineffectual in establishing any semblance of order far from the cities – the central officials only cared if taxes were paid and grain was collected. At least the orthodox sects protected the communities close to them from bandits and other miscreants.

The Eight Sects under the Douchebag Generation could exert a lot of pressure if they want to. In the Frathouse's time, Wang and co. chose not to involve themselves in political matters, but Nie Wuxing has been rather adamant about seeking out political connections. And there's Mao Sanjiao as well.

Shun has been fighting a lot of corruption along the way, and Operation: Immortal probably ensured that he would be able to get his reforms through with very little dissent, but you aren't going to fix three decades of misrule overnight.
 
Last edited:

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
Where do you think all the money in China comes from? The rural areas bring in taxes and food, and the Eight Sects have done the Empire's job during Taisheng's reign. I'm sure that Emperor Xuande is turning things around, but he's only been Emperor for two years at this point. Gonna take a while to unfuck things:

That doesn't say anything about the orthodox sects bringing in the taxes, though. What it did do was essentially make the prefects petty princes of a sort ruling over areas as they wished so long as they submitted some sort of tribute from their general area, it doesn't say anything about the Orthodontists actually being the collectors.

Note:
At least the orthodox sects protected the communities close to them from bandits and other miscreants.

These guys specifically protect the ones who are near-ish to them. This is as opposed to those 'central officials' not giving a shit and just extracting payment from whoever is in their jurisdiction without really providing anything in the way of security and so on.

The orthodox sects are definitely influential and powerful in military force, as well as being viewed positively by at least the people protected by them, but they're not the cornerstone of the economy. The main problem with the orthodox sects is that for Shun to devote his time to neutralizing them as a threat would mean that he has to take away resources from other areas, which is rather hard to balance for one of the world's largest and most populous empires with pressing military concerns on the borders as well as other severe internal issues. We've seen that Shun has at least launched some sort of campaign against the Bandit Kingdom in Youxia city to put it in its current state as opposed to how it was in the alternate timeline, I guess he views them as a more pressing concern for the moment. Which makes sense; if the bandits become less of a problem, then those who protect against the bandits aren't going to be as important.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
That doesn't say anything about the orthodox sects bringing in the taxes, though.
This does:
One thing to bear in mind is that China at this time is still very much an agrarian society. Close to 80% of the population can be found in the countryside, and thus that remains the main tax-base for the Imperial Court. In helping to maintain order out there, the Eight Sects are actually in a way perpetuating dynastic rule by ensuring taxes continue to reach the central bureaucracy despite the corruption and weakness. If they want power, they can seize it at any time by choking the Imperial Court to death economically. When you can't pay your soldiers...

Of course, this doesn't mean that the Tang aren't powerful - they still command a million-man army with well-trained generals and officers. It's just that the dynasty is in a rather fragile state at the moment.
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
That's because they're protecting the peasants from getting killed and having their stuff stolen by bandits, which would seem to strangle tax collection. They don't actually collect the taxes themselves.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
That's because they're protecting the peasants from getting killed and having their stuff stolen by bandits, which would seem to strangle tax collection. They don't actually collect the taxes themselves.
How does it make them any less in control of the situation?

No Emperor would want them on their bad side, not until they have an alternative in place.
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
That's because they're protecting the peasants from getting killed and having their stuff stolen by bandits, which would seem to strangle tax collection. They don't actually collect the taxes themselves.
How does it make them any less in control of the situation?

No Emperor would want them on their bad side,not until they have an alternative in place.
And he's evidently preparing that alternative by launching campaigns against the Bandit Kingdom, which would make their protection less necessary. He has time to continue down this current path, they're not attacking tomorrow.

There's nothing saying that his help needs to be obvious in the form of the whole Tang army marching out to meet the orthodontists or anything, the emperor does have his more subtle agents. We all love Gao Ying, right?
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
He is not going to replace their functions in a year. Hell, five years would be a stretch.

There's nothing saying that his help needs to be obvious in the form of the whole Tang army marching out to meet the orthodontists or anything, the emperor does have his more subtle agents. We all love Gao Ying, right?
Which brings me to my initial question - what kind of help do you expect?
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
He is not going to replace their functions in a year. Hell, five years would be a stretch.

Do you think they're going to strike within the year? It takes a long while to travel to the area as one person, let alone an army. Coordinating the logistics for that and sending out the call for everyone to gather in the first place is going to take a long while since the orthodontists aren't set up like a military (remember the sort of set-up for striking against the pirates) on top of the time it takes them to figure out that the Fire Cult actually has a copy of the manual. They're not the kind of place that you want to attack on a whim, you want to be sure about it because launching such an attack will inevitably spill out an ocean of blood on both sides. I think he will have some room to offend their sensibilities by the time we are discovered.

Which brings me to my initial question - what kind of help do you expect?

I have to admit, I don't know. I'm not expecting an open military intervention or anything of the sort. Maybe supplies to hold out at the Fire Temple? Maybe he seizes some monastic possessions while the pugilists are out of town, diverting some of their forces to head back home and complain or fight? He's smart and he has smart advisers, I'm sure he can figure something out as happened with the Wudu.

What I do think is that it's strange to expect him to just say, "Nah, it'd be a bother with Orthodontist relations to do anything at all so just try not to die too painfully."
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Kipeci said:
Do you think they're going to strike within the year?
Yes. I expect them to strike while the hysteria around the manuals is still strong. People who would be reasonable otherwise would be blinded ny the promise of power, or by fear of letting their enemies have access to the legendary manual. Leave it to Wuxing to spin the campaign of revenge while the death of Wang is still fresh in their minds, and you'll have an army on your doorstep within months. It's not like he cares much about spilling blood of his own allies.
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
It's been two years. It's not so raw that they would totally disregard any sense to chase the Fire Cult on rumors without taking proper preparations.
 

Tribute

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
919
He is not going to replace their functions in a year. Hell, five years would be a stretch.

There's nothing saying that his help needs to be obvious in the form of the whole Tang army marching out to meet the orthodontists or anything, the emperor does have his more subtle agents. We all love Gao Ying, right?
Which brings me to my initial question - what kind of help do you expect?
I mostly just wanted help with our PR, which is absolutely something the Emperor can do.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
Kipeci, Tribute, I already asked about requesting Shun's aid to the Cult publicly a couple of updates age, here's the answer we got:
It comes from someone trying to move the entire Fire Temple to Maniac Island.
China is Shun's teritorry, right? We can ask for passage.
Ah, yes, being publicly in league with the evil foreign cult that killed the respected Grand Taoist. I'm sure that'll go over well with his court.
I was thinking more along the lines of restraining his army from attacking.

So he gives orders to the army not to attack the evil foreign cult. The same one that killed the heroes that repelled foreign invaders the last time around.
Reassign forces away from the travel route? Relax security? You mean empty the border forts, right? Oh sure, given the trouble in Tufan that's not going to look insane. People will wonder if he's not going cuckoo like his ascended father. Hey, here's an idea. Help Zhang Manxing get control over Tufan. Might make the border more relaxed.

Also, when your big plan consists of 'yeah they're smart they'll work out the details for me', no. You don't have a reason for them to go to such lengths for you anyway.
We shouldn't expect him to publicly side with us, it would be suicide for his political career. At best we can expect him to just stay out of it, but I think Fangshi's idea to get Tufan and Shun to at least postpone them on the pretext of an international incident is a genius one. Gives us more time to build up and train our forces, and build connections.
 

Tribute

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
919
Kipeci, Tribute, I already asked about requesting Shun's aid to the Cult publicly a couple of updates age, here's the answer we got:
It comes from someone trying to move the entire Fire Temple to Maniac Island.
China is Shun's teritorry, right? We can ask for passage.
Ah, yes, being publicly in league with the evil foreign cult that killed the respected Grand Taoist. I'm sure that'll go over well with his court.
I was thinking more along the lines of restraining his army from attacking.

So he gives orders to the army not to attack the evil foreign cult. The same one that killed the heroes that repelled foreign invaders the last time around.
Reassign forces away from the travel route? Relax security? You mean empty the border forts, right? Oh sure, given the trouble in Tufan that's not going to look insane. People will wonder if he's not going cuckoo like his ascended father. Hey, here's an idea. Help Zhang Manxing get control over Tufan. Might make the border more relaxed.

Also, when your big plan consists of 'yeah they're smart they'll work out the details for me', no. You don't have a reason for them to go to such lengths for you anyway.
We shouldn't expect him to publicly side with us, it would be suicide for his political career. At best we can expect him to just stay out of it, but I think Fangshi's idea to get Tufan and Shun to at least postpone them on the pretext of an international incident is a genius one. Gives us more time to build up and train our forces, and build connections.
Maybe we should have just taken his offer way back when, headed up the constables, and become some sort of unholy hybrid between a wuxia prefect-hero and Judge Dee.

Would that have gotten us the yang manual?
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
I'm not asking for public assistance. I'm not really arguing for anything here, I don't care, it's just that it irks me when people say that Shun has no way of helping us in the slightest, not even a little if the orthodox begin a harsh campaign to stamp him out.
 

Tribute

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 18, 2014
Messages
919
I was thinking more "hey, I know this guy, he's good people and he's not going to try to topple China like the last guy".
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
Nah, right now we are on the fast track to becoming GOD! We even have our own cult, a pretty powerful one if we invest time in it and reform their training. After this mess is over, I'm thinking of selecting about five hundred of the most promising people from all our followers and forming a Spartan-like force. Part militant holy order, part wandering pugilists and each one of them worth ten sectarian pugilists. We will call the The Immortals.
 
Last edited:

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
I'm not asking for public assistance. I'm not really arguing for anything here, I don't care, it's just that it irks me when people say that Shun has no way of helping us in the slightest, not even a little if the orthodox begin a harsh campaign to stamp him out.
You mean stamp out us or the Emperor?
I was thinking more "hey, I know this guy, he's good people and he's not going to try to topple China like the last guy".
Reveal his ties to Xu Jing, the most hated pugilist in the jianghu and show sympayhy to the cult of evil foreign sorcerers? That will go over well.
 

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
Covertly, but not a whole lot. If he gets caught helping us, that will bring down a ton of shit on him from his court and he cannot afford that. We're friends and all, yeah, but he has an entire nation to look after, just like we have our own people to look after. So I wouldn't expect too much, or anything too direct.
 
Last edited:

Baltika9

Arcane
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
9,611
I dunno guys, I don't trust this duck. Or the wording Qilin used for it.
“There’s no need. I know how to get there. It’s the most famous restaurant in the northern region, beating out even Chang’an’s famed Fuman Restaurant. Their roasted duck is to die for,” she says excitedly.
The duck is Shulgi.
 

Nevill

Arcane
Joined
Jun 6, 2009
Messages
11,211
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
You feel a presence manifesting behind you suddenly. Whirling around, you find yourself face to face with the servant girl, Xiaofang. She is fast… but you are faster. You snatch her wrist, twisting it to make her drop the dagger, and bring her down to the floor with a quick flick. As her qi begins to drain, you sense something off about it though you cannot comprehend just what is strange at the moment. You let go of her arm and prepare to kick the servant off the stage.
treave, was the qi strangeness we felt when we touched Xiaofang at the tournament related to her gender? Did we expect ying energy only to find yang instead? Or is this about something completely different?
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom