[LP CYOA] 傳

[Nevill]

Except we know that Du Yao was killed by the same technique that was used on Xiaofang, and Xiaofang was attacked by someone he know, and there's the mole in the constables who's gave away the manual in the first place. We also found evidence that indicated the attacker escaped over the wall. A lot of this is incongruous with Jiang Zheng being the culprit.

If Fu Xia was the murderer, which you seem to imply, why would he stab Du Yao with his own sword? He could not have predicted that chief Zheng would return to the manor after he did not find Xiaofang - hell, the murderer didn't know anything about Xiaofang's orders, that's why he bumped into him in the first place.

If Fu Xia stabbed Du Yao to implicate one of the constables after the chief was gone, then he was shooting himself in the foot. For all he knew, everyone else could have had an alibi. It does not make sense for him to use the sword and implicate himself.

We don't have anything tangible against the guy, and what we have does not really seem to be consistent with him being the murderer. He could be an accomplice, but if you think to present the court with another culprit, Fu Xia does not really fit the bill.

Again, they don't care about proper justice.

They care about the trial that would satisfy everyone. That's why we are having the trial in the first place.

If we make our case and convince the garrison commander of Zheng's innocence, he might be unwilling to accept the torture and execution of Tang citizen just to appease the bandits. What will happen from there is anyone's guess.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm guessing Fu Xia is a crappy fighter who has to use Hanbing Needles with poison as his ace in the hole for guaranteed victory. Also, he'd want to cover up the presence of poison by presenting more conventional wounds.

Don't forget the framejob was leading towards Jiang Zheng as primary suspect and Jinkong Sect as a backup suspect. It's not a coincidence that Du Yao happened to get assassinated while Jiang Zheng was there. Using a constable shortsword frames Jiang Zheng.

They care about the trial that would satisfy everyone. That's why we are having the trial in the first place.

No they don't. If they did, they'd have given us more time so that we can get Xiaofang's testimony. Instead they're rushing the trial because they want to be done with it and move on. Come on now, this is written in the update, even.

 

[Baltika9]

By the way, flopping back to a solid B. Esquilax's arguments got me carried away.

 

[Absinthe]

Ahem,

B. You speak up, attempting to persuade them that the true assassin has fled the city. It is in fact a very likely scenario, though you cannot be sure whether it is the truth. If it works, however, you at least spare Chief Jiang from any torture, though you are also unsure what future ramifications this conclusion would have for Youxia City.

Yes, because we've never been presented dead-end choices before as something that just might work but on further inspection really doesn't.

 

[Baltika9]

So how do you know that C will work as advertised?

 

[Nevill]

It's not a coincidence that Du Yao happened to get assassinated while Jiang Zheng was there. Using a constable shortsword frames Jiang Zheng.

Nope. Du Yao was killed the moment Zheng entered his room for the second time. The murderer could not have known that he would return. It was a coincidence.

 

[Absinthe]

So how do you know that C will work as advertised?

Like I said, they need a culprit to pin it on. If we present Fu Xia, that's going to be Fu Xia. And all the signs currently point to Fu Xia being the biggest suspect, so I don't see why we wouldn't turn him over when we have to give them a suspect.

 

[Baltika9]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. treave, what makes Jing think that B's success will spare Jiang Zheng?

 

[Nevill]

Like I said, they need a culprit to pin it on. If we present Fu Xia, that's going to be Fu Xia. And all the signs currently point to Fu Xia being the biggest suspect, so I don't see why we wouldn't turn him over when we have to give them a suspect.

We don't have to give them a suspect. As in, 'hand the suspect over'.

It would be ideal, sure, but if we can prove without doubt that the one they currently have didn't do it, or at least make one of them disagree with the others, they can't proceed with the trial anymore.

These people have different interests here, and not all of them are eager to sweep it under a rug.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm pretty sure one of them can disagree, and that would be unpleasant, but the other 2 can overrule him. Again: Where the fuck do you think we are? This is Youxia City. Do you think they care about honest to goodness proper justice? They just care about the city running smoothly. I assure you Pang Xiaohu gives no fucks about justice and Du Yao's lieutenants just want the city running smoothly and a successor appointed. The garrison commander is the only one who might actually care about justice but he's the one who says "I can see the appeal of obtaining a confession, in the absence of any other possible suspect."

Guess what? The B vote still does not hand them a suspect. It just says, "as a constable, I totally think our constable leader didn't do it. There must be some guy out there who totally did it and escaped."

 

[Nevill]

This is starting to sound like a broken record.

I'm pretty sure one of them can disagree, and that would be unpleasant, but the other 2 can overrule him.

This is not democracy, they are not voting.

If that is the case, considering Youxia City’s current status as a self-governing city paying tribute to the Tang Emperor, they could not simply execute an official of the Tang court without first satisfying all avenues of inquiry. That would be giving an excuse for the Tang soldiers stationed nearby to march in and impose their own rule on the place.

If Tang don't want Zheng executed and have a good enough reason for that, then there goes the trial.
You'd think Tang would be happy to take control over the place if someone gives them the chance.

Again: Where the fuck do you think we are? This is Youxia City. Do you think they care about honest to goodness proper justice?

Why are you bringing this up again and again? And again? This was never about proper justice, this was about something that would satisfy everyone.

The remnants of Du Yao’s operation, more concerned with keeping both sides in a non-violent truce – or at least, non-violent by the standards of Youxia City – would not act rashly. Du Yao’s death has left a vacuum at the top, and any hasty action on their part now might leave them without a city to govern when the dust settles. It would be in their best interests to conduct a fair trial, one that satisfies both the Tang and the Bandit Kingdom. The Bandit King, Pang Hu, will likely be hoping for Chief Jiang to be found guilty, as that strikes a blow to the image of the Tang, but you think even he will not make any impulsive moves before a verdict is reached.

If fair trial and 'proper justice' is what it takes to satisfy them, then 'honest to goodness proper justice' it is.

It all comes down to whether we manage to sway the garrison commander to our side, and your arguments about 'running the place smoothly' and 'appointing the successor' do not concern him as much as they concern Du Yao's lieutenants.

 

[Absinthe]

This is not democracy, they are not voting.

Give or take. I suspect that it is more democratic. Lets ask treave.

If Tang don't want Zheng executed and have a good enough reason for that, then there goes the trial.

Except the B vote is not a sufficiently compelling reason. It just says, "as a constable, I totally think our constable leader didn't do it. There must be some guy out there who totally did it and escaped." Even if it is plausible, it is not compelling. And they want a suspect.

You'd think Tang would be happy to take control over the place if someone gives them the chance.

If they have a legitimate reason for doing so, possibly. But... "The constables came up with this theory where their leader didn't do it and the guy who did it just happened to escape." That's not a good enough reason. This escaped culprit theory is just going to make a mess out of the situation at best while Jiang Zheng still gets executed. And, we still have a much bigger suspect up our sleeves, so lets give them Fu Xia.

Why are you bringing this up again and again? And again? This was never about proper justice, this was about something that would satisfy everyone. If fair trial and 'proper justice' is what it takes to satisfy them, then 'honest to goodness proper justice' it is.

You just contradicted yourself. And you're ignoring the part that proper justice would have given us the time to get Xiaofang's testimony. They're bothering with the process of a proper trial, but that doesn't mean their interests in the trial align.

It all comes down to whether we manage to sway the garrison commander to our side, and your arguments about 'running the place smoothly' and 'appointing the successor' do not concern him as much as they concern Du Yao's lieutenants.

Way to cherrypick, Nevill: Did you forget the part where he says "I can see the appeal of obtaining a confession, in the absence of any other possible suspect."? B does not give a suspect.

Here's what I don't get Nevill. We all found Fu Xia to be extremely dodgy, suspicious, and he could've very well been at the crime scenes with the crime scene weapons involved. You yourself called Theseus on Fu Xia. So why shouldn't we say "Fu Xia is the biggest suspect"? Why do you want to protect Fu Xia so badly now? Why do you want to protect the guy you suspect is Theseus?

 

[TOME]

I'm going to go with B. I think Fu Xia is suspicious as fuck but we don't have any evidence. C sounds so stupid and A is a bit too surrenderish for me.

 

[Absinthe]

I'm going to go with B. I think Fu Xia is suspicious as fuck but we don't have any evidence. C sounds so stupid and A is a bit too surrenderish for me.

So... Fu Xia is suspicious as fuck but calling him our primary suspect sounds so stupid to you? What?

 

[Nevill]

We all found Fu Xia to be extremely dodgy, suspicious, and he could've very well been at the crime scenes with the murder weapons involved. You yourself called Theseus on Fu Xia. So why shouldn't we say "Fu Xia is the biggest suspect"?

The accusations against Fu Xia seem laughable when taken separately.

He had the sword? The culprit would have a boatload of constable swords after massacring the ones who guarded the manual.

He is two-faced? So is Jing - if you can call it that. Jing can enter Zhou Manor with a smile on his face and an offer of help and then try to one-up them all by travelling to the pirate island with the daughter of the household. That is hardly 'acting in good faith'.

The constables had a mole among them? Why would that implicate Fu Xia more than Lady Suien or any of the other 100 members? What reason do we have to assume he knew about the manual before the massacre at all?

Xiaofang knew the assailant? That's the strongest of the bunch, and then again, the only thing we know for sure is that they argued with each other. That might have happened for a variety of reasons, and not all of them point to Fu Xia.

And there are things that don't add up, like Xueguzi/Jinkong techniques and the attempt to frame the constables when he himself is one.

Taken together, they make him suspicious to us, but why would they make him the bigger suspect to the jury? As Esquilax have pointed out, being found on a crime scene with the bloodied sword in hand over the corpse of the host is a pretty damning and solid evidence, and your suspicions do not overrule that. I find it hard to present them with a case that would be more convincing than the one that involves Zheng. And trying to half-ass the case on a spot is... unwise. It does not do anyone good.

Thinking about it further, even if Fu Xia is guilty, I'd rather leave this stuff for the internal investigation. The Bandit Kingdom wants to place the blame for the murder of Du Yao on Tang, and it does not really make much difference who did it, as long as he belongs to the imperial service. The constebulary has their unblemished (so far) reputation to help them remain the power that can pass judgement on peasant and eunuch alike. Take that from them, and it would be a pretty big hit, both to their own reputation/credibility and to the Emperor's, since he made them his representatives. I'd rather solve these matters quietly and slit the traitor's throat when no one is around than expose our dirty underwear publicly, and especially not when there is a faction that explicitly wants us to do just that to use it in their schemes.

I am with Kipeci on this one. Do we want Youxia City/Bandit Kingdom as our allies, or do we want to strengthen our ties with the Constebulary? I'd rather go for the latter.

 

[XenomorphII]

C

 

[Absinthe]

He had the sword? The culprit would have a boatload of constable swords after massacring the ones who guarded the manual.

We'd've known if the assaulted constables had their swords taken. Lady Suien would have mentioned it when considering culprits for the sword wound.

He is two-faced? So is Jing - if you can call it that. Jing can enter Zhou Manor with a smile on his face and an offer of help and then try to one-up them all by travelling to the pirate island with the daughter of the household. That is hardly 'acting in good faith'.

Irrelevant. Everyone knows where Jing was during the crime. Fu Xia on the other hand has no alibi.

The constables had a mole among them? Why would that implicate Fu Xia more than Lady Suien or any of the other 100 members? What reason do we have to assume he knew about the manual before the massacre at all?

Jing knows Lady Suien, and Lady Suien dropped out of politics to live a private life. It's against her character to be involved in backroom scheming. The fact that we know Fu Xia is two-faced makes him a more likely candidate to be the mole. It could be one of the others investigators, sure, but there is a high probability that Du Yao was assassinated to avoid exposing the manual, which means what happened here is very directly connected to the mole.

Xiaofang knew the assailant? That's the strongest of the bunch, and then again, the only thing we know for sure is that they argued with each other. That might have happened for a variety of reasons, and not all of them point to Fu Xia.

That does make a coworker the most likely suspect for Xiaofang's attack though. And the only coworker that could be placed there is Fu Xia.

Taken together, they make his suspicious to us, but why would they make him the bigger suspect for the jury? As Esquilax had pointed out, being found on a crime scene with the bloodied sword in hand over the corpse of the host is a pretty damning and solid evidence, and your suspicions do not overrule that. I find it hard to present them with a case that would be more convincing than the one that involves Zhang.

You forgot about the fact that the Hanbing Needles technique was used with the same poison at both attacks. This means there is a high likelihood it was the same culprit in both cases, which couldn't be Jiang Zheng. And we have evidence of the culprit escaping over the wall during the mansion investigation, which Jiang Zheng certainly didn't do.

Factoring in the argument, that makes three pieces of evidence to suspect Fu Xia but not Jiang Zheng.

Thinking about it further, even if Fu Xia is guilty, I'd rather leave this stuff for the internal investigation. The Bandit Kingdom wants to place the blame for the murder of Du Yao on Tang, and it does not really make much difference who did it, as long as he belongs to the imperial service. The constebulary has their unblemished (so far) reputation to help them remain the power that can pass judgement on peasant and eunuch alike. Take that from them, and it would be a pretty big hit, both to their own reputation and to the Emperor's, since he made them his representatives. I'd rather solve these matters quietly and slit the traitor's throat when no one is around than expose their dirty underwear publicly, and especially not when there is a faction that explicitly wants just that to use it in their schemes.

So you'd rather have Jiang Zheng dead and Fu Xia exposed than Fu Xia exposed and Jiang Zheng alive? What? Also, we've been over this, the reputation hit is not the same when a rank-and-file constable gets sentenced than when leader of the imperial constables gets sentenced. Especially if the rank-and-file constable in question (Fu Xia) is exposed to be the mole.

But this entire logic is still weird to me: You think there is an off chance that they actually won't find Fu Xia guilty, so you'd rather not try in the first place? This is the defeatist line of reasoning you're using? I might fail so it's better not to try?

I think at this point, you're just trying to argue back at me. You should take a step back and think about which choice makes the most sense, not "how do I make another argument against Absinthe".

 

[Nevill]

So you'd rather have Jiang Zheng dead and Fu Xia exposed than Fu Xia exposed and Jiang Zheng alive?

No, I'd rather have Zheng and Fu Xia alive and sort this mess away from the prying eyes of the Bandit Kingdom.

But this entire logic is still weird to me: You think there is an off chance that they actually won't find Fu Xia guilty, so you'd rather not try in the first place? This is the defeatist line of reasoning you're using?

No, this is the line of reasoning you are attributing to me to make you refuttal more sound.

I am afraid that Fu Xia may be found guilty while he is in fact innocent. That is not going to sit well with me, with our party, and with the rest of the Constebulary.

You can't hope to have him executed, fabricate your own version of the story regardless of what the truth was, and hope that it ends there. Xiaofand will regain consciousness and tell us the identity of the assailant in a week. If Fu Xia is dead by then and the assailant was someone else, we won't hear the end of it from Lingshu and Yifang. Chief Zheng would not approve of that either. Basically, we might have to end our cooperation then and there.

And even if Fu Xia is really guilty, while it would be better to have him die instead of chief Zheng, it would still not be ideal, as the fault would still lie with the Constebulary.

B. You speak up, attempting to persuade them that the true assassin has fled the city. It is in fact a very likely scenario, though you cannot be sure whether it is the truth. If it works, however, you at least spare Chief Jiang from any torture, though you are also unsure what future ramifications this conclusion would have for Youxia City.

I am betting on that it works, as the choice implies, and I laid out the argument why I think so.

I'd rather we did not resort to fearmongering. "This will totes not work and Vairya catches us/Lingshu dies/Jing and Yunzi get hospitalized Zheng is executed" is a bad argument. I know how the listed choices can backfire, but this is what is offered to me, so this is what I vote for.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Amending vote to C>B, treave.

 

[Absinthe]

And even if Fu Xia is really guilty, while it would be better to have him die instead of chief Zheng, it would still not be ideal, as the fault would still lie with the Constebulary.

I don't think we get that kind of ideal choice. We just get to pick which choice is better. And personally, I think the best choice here is to hand over the guy who has the most reason to be guilty.

I am betting on that it works, as the choice implies, and I laid out the argument why I think so.

I'd rather we did not resort to fearmongering. "This will totes not work and Vairya catches us/Lingshu dies/Jing and Yunzi get hospitalized Zheng is executed" is a bad argument. I know how the listed choices can backfire, but this is what is offered to me, so this is what I vote for.

But it's not fearmongering. When we have a direct quote where they already considered the B scenario and conclude to torture Jiang Zheng, I think that quote is worth considering:

“They might have escaped the city long ago,” sighs the lieutenant. “Still, there is nothing that says Jiang Zheng isn’t the murderer. He might actually know this needle technique in secret.”

Pang Xiaohu offers no insight, sharpening his axes in boredom.

“Perhaps a confession is in order,” continues the lieutenant.

“Perhaps the city simply is too insecure, allowing the assassin to escape,” says the garrison commander. “But I can see the appeal of obtaining a confession, in the absence of any other possible suspect.”

It looks like they will order Jiang Zheng tortured in an attempt to make him confess.

So the specific reason they are going with, to reject the B scenario and torture Jiang Zheng, is because they do not have another suspect. And if we vote B, we still do not have another suspect. I don't think 6 speech will somehow make up for a lack of suspect, especially when we are representing the constables while trying to exculpate the constable leader. And Pang Xiaohu hasn't even spoken yet, and we already know which way he is leaning:

The Bandit King, Pang Hu, will likely be hoping for Chief Jiang to be found guilty, as that strikes a blow to the image of the Tang, but you think even he will not make any impulsive moves before a verdict is reached.

 

[Kz3r0]

flopping to B and proposing D:
Convince them to await until Xiaofang has recovered.

 

[Absinthe]

D has already failed:

You would have liked to wait until Xiaofang woke up so that you could ask him some questions, but unfortunately it looks like the powers-that-be in Youxia City would not wait any longer; neither would the garrison commander and the bandits led by Pang Xiaohu. Unrest in the city was rising at the uncertainty of the current situation, and they had agreed to close this case of Du Yao’s murder so that they could move on to other issues… like how the city would be governed from now on.

We'd all appreciate it if we had the time to do that.

 

[treave]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something here. treave, what makes Jing think that B's success will spare Jiang Zheng?

The garrison commander currently sees the appeal in producing a suspect and B is where you persuade him to see the appeal in simply pinning it on Person X.

 

[Baltika9]

Right, and with our group and three thousand soldiers, the garisson commander is the real power here at the moment. So this is basically admitting the Constebulary's incompetence in exchange for not harming the Empire's standing by definitely condemning a Constable.

 

[Tigranes]

Absinthe is right, it is unlikely that B will work out very well. We would have to produce a political argument, rather than a criminal/juridical one, that it is better to blame Person X and say 'case closed'. And given Jing knows very little of constabulary / state / Youxia City politics, I don't really see something great happening unless we get pretty lucky. Luck. Jing.

The problem is all the options sound shit to me. A is very unJing and doesn't get us much bro points with the constabulary, while C seems ridiculous in that we passed up the chance to interrogate / investigate Fu Xia before this. You can't really say "hey here's a guy we didn't really examine during our investigation period and we still don't really have any concrete evidence against him but ITS HIM, give us our boss back".