[LP CYOA] 傳

[Tribute]

I guess I'll flop to Ax, for whatever that'll help.

 

[Baltika9]

Flopping to A1>D. If we kick his ass and show him that we have what he needs, he will have to play along. We will be negotiating from a position of strength and he probably won't snitch on us since he wants the power for himself.
I'm afraid that A2 is just too big a gamble: anything short of critical success means we're fucked here, on Huehueshan home turf.

 

[Absinthe]

Baltika9, well, I'm pretty sure that if we happen to lose to Bai Jiutian with A2, he would still side with us because losing to him without using Wuxiang Qiankun indicates we were pushed to our limits and then didn't have anything left. In other words, it would indicate no Wuxiang Qiankun, so he'd be after the other manual (which the Zhang family has) and need our help (since Huashan is buddies with them).

The Brazilian Slaughter, no, pretty sure the temple copy is the whole thing. Based on what Bai Jiutian said, it may even be the original. Also, I think Bai Jiutian would recruit assistance since he can't handle it by himself, so we'd have Huashan down our necks.

As for Bai sneaking into the temple, I actually think this might be within his abilities:

“Yes, yes, my darling will accept your invitation to visit, Holy Maiden,” Qilin says annoyedly, interrupting your talk with Yunzi.

“Does that invitation extend to me too?”

You freeze up as a figure in white steps forward from the trees, smiling thinly. Bai Jiutian.

That seems like a decent stealth rating there.

 

[Kipeci]

I don't think that's how BJ operates. Whether or not he calls for Huashan depends on whether or not he stands to benefit from doing so. That's why for the time being he is willing to speak with us quietly. At the same time, if it turns out he could gain more from turning us over to Huashan, he would do so.

Yes, and as you said bringing in help from Huashan could lead to the Zhang clan getting involved, which he certainly won't want. He was okay with turning us over to Huashan if we wouldn't agree to this meeting-- if we're not going to provide him with the capability to find out such sensitive information away from the ears of others it's best to just get rid of us-- but now Huashan is quite a distance away and if we slip away he's probably not going to be able to get us back. If his intention was to find out about whether or not we have WQ far away from Huashan and then to call them on us the moment he figured out we have it, then BJ is retarded and I don't think he is.

First, Jing has some monstrous willpower. I don't think for a moment he'd cave to any interrogation. Second, I seriously doubt BJ would interrogate us. As I said, even if we lose, BJ would probably conclude that it's better to pursue the Zhang manual than us.

So, he explicitly said that we weren't getting off the mountain unless we told him the secret we found... and you're saying that after he beats us up he'll immediately turn us free because we probably have nothing? He doesn't want to mess with the Zhang clan as he said very clearly in the update (at least not without powerful allies), his enemy that he suspects of having a legendary technique already rendered to be at his mercy is an infinitely easier target than taking on the Zhang clan. Regardless of whether or not Jing has great willpower, I don't want to waste time being tortured or any such bullshit instead of training up powerful skills like WQ and getting things done.

Sure, we know that. He is not so sure. The possibility of hidden sword techniques would add a layer of doubt and confusion to the idea we used Wuxiang Qiankun and not something else. The Yuchang Sword is famed for handling far more easily than any other blade in existence. The possibility that we have some kind of swordsmanship-copying technique with the Yuchang Sword, for instance, isn't out of the question.

Ah, so we independently devised a sword technique that allows us to copy someone's sword techniques exactly just so that it can look pretty with our Yuchang Sword. Okay, so how does that make him any less interested in interrogating such a secret out of us? That would be on par with a legendary technique itself.

In the first case, I doubt Bai Jiutian would join our group. If he helps us out, he would be doing it from his own side searching through Huashan, etc. Beyond that, training on Wuxiang Qiankun is mostly meditation, and just about every martial artist meditates so I doubt he's going to suspect something is up when we meditate unless he happens to have immortal eyes.

He's suspicious of us and he's going to be on the lookout for any irregularities. If we kill people with WQ, if we use it on people who live? Bodies can be inspected, people can have questions asked of them. It's a danger that's ever present for him to pick up on to consider since he's more on the case, and if we rely on him not knowing then that's a big thing to consider.

Training for this is not all meditation, Jing thinks he'd get some great benefit out of facing BJ with this move. Putting this work into practice is a big component of understanding and totally ignoring that out of fear that BJ will find out will only serve to hinder the skill's cultivation before we get to the Huashan Summit.

I don't think he's expecting 100% confirmation, and if we go with A2 he'll have to admit that so far signs are looking negative. I'm not sure why you insist on thinking in terms of absolutes.

What part of

“I will make you use everything you have. You are not leaving this mountain otherwise, Xu Jing,”

and

“Are you going to try and make me talk?”

“I cannot afford not to. My shimu already suspects a thing or two about you… even if you do not talk now, you are merely postponing the inevitable.”

are you not understanding? These are not the words of someone who will beat us up, say 'Well, maybe it was all a big misunderstanding!' and let us go with a smile and wave.

He'd call on them the moment it would suit his purpose. Did you forget that he admitted he would call Huashan on us if we refused to agree to the meeting?

Because if we didn't agree to a private meeting he'd have no possible way to extract the secret from us without having to go through Huashan or other channels as he's pretty sure that he won't be able to catch us in the future. That's of interest to him, but if we can't help him on it, he'd have to consider us in terms other than value in information or as a potential partner... and that only really leaves us as an enemy of him and his sect, so what would you expect him to do?

You're underselling what I said. I said that with our very high perception we'd have enough ability to fend off his swordsmanship for the most part and create a few openings for our unarmed techniques. With our unarmed techniques we should be able to beat him and with our rank 8 kenjutsu we should be able to face his sword.

One would think that if our perception made that great of a difference we would have noticed something when we switched over to using it? And we did; that was that not every attack we launched left us entirely open to be cut up by his sword. That's not a positive sign. Landing in occasional unarmed hits will do far less to him over time that whenever he gets an opening to strike us with his sword, and if we're barely scoring ones on him you can be sure that he'll pick up a few on us. Maybe if we'd boosted our sword skill more or gotten some stat boosts rather than focusing so much on techniques, but what's done is done and I don't think we're good enough in a straight fight to go up against him with anything but our best.

We can dictate from a point of power anyway if we win with A2, which I find to be quite possible. We invested in the Kenjutsu package so heavily precisely so that we'd have a solid sword technique. That said, even if we lose, if Bai Jiutian has the better opportunity by helping us than by backstabbing us, I think he'd help us. Losing would prove to him that we probably don't have the technique, so I think he would most likely try to help us out.

Yeah, we have a solid sword technique. He has several that he's been honing for years and generally better skill. If we use that arsenal against him with WQ it may be possible to break through but I don't think for a second that our chances of winning are 'quite possible'.

It's not a matter of him backstabbing us, he's openly told us that he won't stop until he's able to beat our secret out of Jing and that he's going to be interrogating us if he wins. There's nothing to suggest that he'd just give up if he beat us and then take out a hand to say, "Hey, friend, let's team up against that nasty Zhang clan I said it was foolish in the extreme to try to fight back against!" Maybe if we beat him and prove ourselves a worthy ally with some skill in the legendary techniques, but we're in detention if he beats us and he's going to be pissed when he finds out we were keeping that secret from him.

You realize there is such a thing as an uncertainty, right? Even though Bai Jiutian suspects we have the technique, he does not know we have the technique. If he already knew for certain we have the technique, he wouldn't be bothering getting confirmation in the first place. I think A1 is very reckless in this regard because we put our whole party in danger and I think BJ will just run away if we'd flatten him with Wuxiang Qiankun.

"Never ask a question you don't know the answer to," is a common legal saying. With that view, this is more of a test to see if we'll cooperate... which we're currently kinda failing. I'd prefer to beat him and offer a partnership as a mean to practice the technique and improve our strength in it. Whatever he found out was obviously damning enough that it lead him through deep history on how the move was discovered and how it might have been used, if he's that sure that he says he isn't going to let us off the mountain until we reveal everything I don't think it's going to become an ice-cream party the moment we punches in our face with A2.

As discussed before, BJ wants to keep this under wraps (there's no way he wants the Zhang family securing this stuff) so this is probably not going to filter out to put us generally in danger. If it does, we must train until we are strong enough that no challenger is willing to face us.

Because turning in the Wuxiang Qiankun manual is just the sort of thing to repair his standing and make him a very powerful martial artist.

Ha! No, he won't be made a powerful martial artist. He's one already, and if he did that he wouldn't exactly be privy to its contents. His public understanding is impeccable, they just don't like him so much as heirs and endangered zhangs take more prominence.

How would using the WQS even help in this battle? It gives +1 sneak, +2 qinggong and allows to mimic BJ's techniques. Great, we'll be using BJ's techniques while having less proficiency in swords. It's not going to be very surprising either, I'm sure BJ is very comfortable counter-counter-countering Huashan techniques. WQS is strong but it's only lvl 1 and it's not yet going supersaiyan.

Goddamn right, who needs more sword techniques delivered exactly like the original user's in strength and skill as well as fancy footwork against the fastest opponent we've ever faced? I'm sure that ultimate power would just hold us back.

 

[archaen]

A2>A1

 

[Absinthe]

Yes, and as you said bringing in help from Huashan could lead to the Zhang clan getting involved, which he certainly won't want. He was okay with turning us over to Huashan if we wouldn't agree to this meeting-- if we're not going to provide him with the capability to find out such sensitive information away from the ears of others it's best to just get rid of us-- but now Huashan is quite a distance away and if we slip away he's probably not going to be able to get us back. If his intention was to find out about whether or not we have WQ far away from Huashan and then to call them on us the moment he figured out we have it, then BJ is retarded and I don't think he is.

If he turns it over the Huashan it's out of his hands. He doesn't get to boss Huashan around. Also, this might be used as an opportunity to improve relations between the Zhang clan and Bai Jiutian.

So, he explicitly said that we weren't getting off the mountain unless we told him the secret we found... and you're saying that after he beats us up he'll immediately turn us free because we probably have nothing? He doesn't want to mess with the Zhang clan as he said very clearly in the update (at least not without powerful allies), his enemy that he suspects of having a legendary technique already rendered to be at his mercy is an infinitely easier target than taking on the Zhang clan.

For fuck's sakes stop being so thick. I'll explain this to you one more fucking time. Bai Jiutian does not know for certain that we have the technique. That is why he is trying to obtain confirmation. Therefore, it is possible to convince him that we do not have it. He would probably not waste extra time trying to extract a confession out of what would otherwise be a helpful ally based on suspicions that appear increasingly unlikely.

Ah, so we independently devised a sword technique that allows us to copy someone's sword techniques exactly just so that it can look pretty with our Yuchang Sword. Okay, so how does that make him any less interested in interrogating such a secret out of us? That would be on par with a legendary technique itself.

No, it wouldn't be on par with Wuxiang Qiankun. Also, if we admit to having the Yuchang Sword we're obviously going to have a shitstorm down our necks, but with any luck our new ten swords faction will make people think twice about that shit. Anyway, this is all for Bai Jiutian to speculate and get confused about. We don't need to argue hypothetical details of what Bai Jiutian might be thinking. The main point is that he will more shit to consider and that will distract him from the possibility that we actually have Wuxiang Qiankun.

He's suspicious of us and he's going to be on the lookout for any irregularities. If we kill people with WQ, if we use it on people who live? Bodies can be inspected, people can have questions asked of them. It's a danger that's ever present for him to pick up on to consider since he's more on the case, and if we rely on him not knowing then that's a big thing to consider.

Why the fuck are you assuming Bai Jiutian will be our personal stalker if he decides to help us? Do you even realize how stupid this scenario of yours is? He has his own shit to do and his own angles to pursue, and we have ours. If BJ even tags along on our party, he'd instantly suffer a solid rep drop for association. The point is just that we assist each other from time to time on this endeavor, not that he enters our group.

Training for this is not all meditation, Jing thinks he'd get some great benefit out of facing BJ with this move. Putting this work into practice is a big component of understanding and totally ignoring that out of fear that BJ will find out will only serve to hinder the skill's cultivation before we get to the Huashan Summit.

Now, you're right that if we don't use Wuxiang Qiankun we won't develop it as quickly, but I also think it's too soon to put our party at risk by revealing we have the Wuxiang Qiankun. Don't forget that the moment people find out we have this technique, all our movements will be watched, which will seriously fuck our chances of finding any other manual along with endangering our party, the fire cult, and the asahina.

What part of “I will make you use everything you have. You are not leaving this mountain otherwise, Xu Jing,” and “I cannot afford not to. My shimu already suspects a thing or two about you… even if you do not talk now, you are merely postponing the inevitable.” are you not understanding? These are not the words of someone who will beat us up, say 'Well, maybe it was all a big misunderstanding!' and let us go with a smile and wave.

Why are you honestly believing the words of a duplicitous bastard like Bai Jiutian? Consider the possibility that Bai Jiutian is claiming to be certain to pressure us into revealing the Wuxiang Qiankun tech to him? That's why he's doing this stupid routine of "oh I already know I just want confirmation but it's like totally unimportant but I won't give up until I have it." BUT if he really did fucking know for certain we have the skill, he would not be wasting his fucking time trying to confirm it.

Because if we didn't agree to a private meeting he'd have no possible way to extract the secret from us without having to go through Huashan or other channels as he's pretty sure that he won't be able to catch us in the future. That's of interest to him, but if we can't help him on it, he'd have to consider us in terms other than value in information or as a potential partner... and that only really leaves us as an enemy of him and his sect, so what would you expect him to do?

Right, and my point is that depending on what we reveal to him, he can still make that exact same decision. So if he knows we have Wuxiang Qiankun, he could decide that the value of our technique exceeds the value of our assistance, given the risks involved in what we're asking.

One would think that if our perception made that great of a difference we would have noticed something when we switched over to using it? And we did; that was that not every attack we launched left us entirely open to be cut up by his sword.

What are you on about? After we switched to order mode he didn't land a single blow. But we opened him up to our unarmed techniques.

That's not a positive sign. Landing in occasional unarmed hits will do far less to him over time that whenever he gets an opening to strike us with his sword, and if we're barely scoring ones on him you can be sure that he'll pick up a few on us. Maybe if we'd boosted our sword skill more or gotten some stat boosts rather than focusing so much on techniques, but what's done is done and I don't think we're good enough in a straight fight to go up against him with anything but our best.

Dude, we already invested 6 months of training into swordsmanship. We literally grabbed all the upgrades for our sword skill and to max our sword technique. We got 3 months for the kenjutsu and +1 swords, 2 more months for another +1 swords, and 1 month for +4 sabers just to get another +1 to our kenjutsu. It's a rank 8 master level technique. We couldn't have gotten it any higher from our training. So stop shitting yourself acting like our sword tech must be crap.

Yeah, we have a solid sword technique. He has several that he's been honing for years and generally better skill. If we use that arsenal against him with WQ it may be possible to break through but I don't think for a second that our chances of winning are 'quite possible'.

I dislike defeatist thinking. At any rate, I'm just going to disagree with you here. I think rank 8 sword skill is enough to fend him off coupled with high stats and unarmed techniques. It's going to be a hell of a fight, but that doesn't mean we'd necessarily lose.

There's nothing to suggest that he'd just give up if he beat us and then take out a hand to say, "Hey, friend, let's team up against that nasty Zhang clan I said it was foolish in the extreme to try to fight back against!" Maybe if we beat him and prove ourselves a worthy ally with some skill in the legendary techniques, but we're in detention if he beats us and he's going to be pissed when he finds out we were keeping that secret from him.

See, if Bai Jiutian beats us, that means we threw just about everything we had at him and still didn't come up with the Wuxiang Qiankun tech. That would indicate that we don't actually have Wuxiang Qiankun at which point if he wants a legendary manual his best bet is to go after the Zhang clan, and he'd need our help.

"Never ask a question you don't know the answer to," is a common legal saying.

That's because in a court of fucking law you don't want to ask questions where unwelcome answers could stab you in the foot. In the real world, you usually ask a question to obtain information, which means that questions are primarily used to obtain answers that you do not know. This is not a court of law. Bai Jiutian is not pleading a case before a judge. Asking a question you know the answer to is a total fucking waste of time normally.

With that view, this is more of a test to see if we'll cooperate... which we're currently kinda failing. I'd prefer to beat him and offer a partnership as a mean to practice the technique and improve our strength in it. Whatever he found out was obviously damning enough that it lead him through deep history on how the move was discovered and how it might have been used, if he's that sure that he says he isn't going to let us off the mountain until we reveal everything I don't think it's going to become an ice-cream party the moment we punches in our face with A2.

It's only obvious in your mind. In my mind, there is no real logical basis for what you are saying. This is all mere speculation which you are trying to pass off as hard fact, which I find distasteful.

Ha! No, he won't be made a powerful martial artist. He's one already, and if he did that he wouldn't exactly be privy to its contents. His public understanding is impeccable, they just don't like him so much as heirs and endangered zhangs take more prominence.

He doesn't want to be "powerful" or "good." He wants to be number one and while he was in a good position for it (better now that Zhang Manxing is dead), he's still not going to be an heir and he still needs a legendary technique to establish dominance.

Goddamn right, who needs more sword techniques delivered exactly like the original user's in strength and skill as well as fancy footwork against the fastest opponent we've ever faced? I'm sure that ultimate power would just hold us back.

Wuxiang Qiankun is not ultimate power just yet. Remember the last time we fucking used it? It wasn't an upgrade. It was a downgrade. Profreshinal raised a very valid point when he mentioned that Bai Jiutian would be an expert in countering his own Huashan techniques. In that case, using his own style against him would not even help.

 

[Tribute]

He would probably not waste extra time trying to extract a confession out of what would otherwise be a helpful ally based on suspicions that appear increasingly unlikely.

Since when does Bai Jiutian ever view Man Tiger Pig as "a helpful ally"? Jing has deliberately cultivated a reputation as a person who will turn on you if he thinks it's amusing enough, because he's terrible at explaining his motives to people he doesn't like. See the Fire Cult Showdown.

 

[Absinthe]

Well, there was Qingcheng where we teamed up to convince Song Lingshu to escape. We also just teamed up and helped him kill Zhang Manxing, whom he wanted gone. Right now we are suggesting to work together to find the Xiaoming Jiuyang manual so it would be in our mutual self-interest to cooperate since we'd both need help. If he wants that manual, he'd want our cooperation. After all the Zhang family hates BJ, so he's not getting it on his own. I think cooperation is a very real possibility right now.

 

[Nevill]

That's a lot of "lalala can't hear you" going on in this thread.

We can't give BJ any info or more leads to the WQS unless we kill him right after. If BJ can confirm his suspicions then his next step is actually learning/getting the skill, we'll never get rid of him after that.

And how does he do that?

I think the real question here is: What happens if Bai Jiutian finds out about the WQS?

Well, there is still a matter of him not knowing where the manual is. I guess we will be holding another piece of the information he wants. Of course, what happens from there is up to speculation. He does not know the manual is in the Fire Temple yet.

If we show him that we have no desire to cooperate then and he can't force us in any way, I can see him making this information public to put the pressure on us. If we aren't going to follow his agenda, he might as well ruin us. That is a danger of A1 and our continued 'cooperation'.

The chances of success (as in, victory) in A2 are miniscule, and I can see BJ going "if you don't have what I need, I don't need you alive anyway". Maybe not in a sense he'll kill us after we lose, but more in a sense that he will press us harder and harder into revealing the skill to the point where we have to use it or die. I guess the desire to confirm his guess could be strong enough to warrant the potential loss of our potential usefulness (which is limited in the matters that do not concern the manual), and his words about us not leaving until we give him everything we've got strenghthen this hypothesis. I don't see why we should doubt him on this. That is the risk of A2.

I find it funny we are debating it now when we knew this exact thing would happen once we agree to meet BJ here alone. What did we come here for? Is our mission here done (manxing's death aside)? If it is so bad for Bai to know we have the skill, what are we even doing here?

At one point it was mentioned that he would cooperate easier if we have something that he wants. Maybe it is better to leave the issue unresolved and leave him hanging? Though I guess that can result in him snapping and deciding this lead is not worth his time.

 

[Esquilax]

Absinthe, if you are so intent on getting Bai Jiutian's cooperation regarding the Zhang family, why do you want to fight him in the first place?

B. You call for a halt to the hostilities. If Bai Jiutian wants to know what you found in Tufan, you’ll tell him. Still, perhaps you don’t need to tell him the whole truth… though he appears to be suspicious enough at the moment that you cannot simply make up whatever lies you want. You’ll have to confess a shocking truth.

1. You tell him that you have the Wuxiang Qiankun Skill, but say nothing about where you found it and what happened at the Fire Temple.
2. You confide in him that you are the new Lord of the Fire Temple, and make no mention of the Wuxiang Qiankun Skill.

I mean, if your goal is to bring down the Zhang family and get Bai Jiutian on your side because he knows more about them than we do, I don't understand how fighting him would help you there. Now, whether it's worth revealing our Wuxian Qiankun Skill is a different matter entirely, but I'm pretty sure that there is a big difference between fighting Bai Jiutian with the WQS and just simply telling him that we have it in hopes of working together (i.e. they both have different outcomes).

I'm inclined to agree with Nevill that taking him on without using our legendary neigong is a terrible idea and a pointless gamble. The whole problem here is that we can't get past BJ's sword to make the fight into a nasty brawl that would favour us. The Wuxian Qiankun Skill is perfect for just this sort of fight - we have stronger inner strength, yet his skills are significantly better than ours. Trying to spin the scenario to make it seem as though using WQS will make us weaker in this fight is completely false.

B1 isn't a bad option to consider. Yes, we won't get to practice our skill for now, but restraining ourselves from a fight at the moment will at least ensure that Zhang Manxing doesn't escape with his life again. And, well, it might have interesting consequences in the long-term; BJ seems to be as paranoid as the average Codexer, so if we tell him that we possess the manual without any proof, he might suspect that we're making shit up and underestimate us down the road. We probably aren't going to kill him here, even using the WQS, and I'd prefer to have him help us against the Zhang Clan, but I don't think that this will be possible without revealing something on our part.

I'm still not quite sure what to vote yet, just trying to give a different perspective.

 

[treave]

Ah, yes, forgot to clarify that the point of B2 is to attempt to mislead him into thinking that you learnt some secret Fire Temple techniques which have nothing to do with Wuxiang Qiankun.

edit:

 

[Zero Credibility]

D

 

[Absinthe]

Absinthe, if you are so intent on getting Bai Jiutian's cooperation regarding the Zhang family, why do you want to fight him in the first place?

I mean, if your goal is to bring down the Zhang family and get Bai Jiutian on your side because he knows more about them than we do, I don't understand how fighting him would help you there.

I think Bai Jiutian requires convincing that we do not have the Wuxiang Qiankun tech first. I think A2 is our best option for that. We accept his challenge (since he really wants confirmation of whether we've got it) and then fight him as best we can without our Wuxiang Qiankun. I don't think it would particularly antagonize him since he's the one who is trying to fight us.

Now, whether it's worth revealing our Wuxian Qiankun Skill is a different matter entirely, but I'm pretty sure that there is a big difference between fighting Bai Jiutian with the WQS and just simply telling him that we have it in hopes of working together (i.e. they both have different outcomes).

Sure.

I'm inclined to agree with Nevill that taking him on without using our legendary neigong is a terrible idea and a pointless gamble. The whole problem here is that we can't get past BJ's sword to make the fight into a nasty brawl that would favour us.

Thing is, we already opened up Bai Jiutian to some unarmed moves now that we switched to Order mode, and Raging Claws of the Mad Lion seems to be the kind of qi attack that works from range. So I think we have a solid chance of facing him. I'm also of the opinion that losing to him while we go all-out would only convince him that we really don't have the Wuxiang Qiankun since our all-out came short. If he thinks we don't have Wuxiang Qiankun, I think he's more likely to cooperate with us to get the Xiaoming Jiuyang manual. There's also the possibility that facing him in a serious sword match would increase our sword skill, as treave stated he cannot confirm or deny whether A2 would lead to a sword increase.

The Wuxian Qiankun Skill is perfect for just this sort of fight - we have stronger inner strength, yet his skills are significantly better than ours. Trying to spin the scenario to make it seem as though using WQS will make us weaker in this fight is completely false.

I wouldn't say it makes us weaker, no. It would help, but even though it's a legendary technique I have my doubts about whether we would do better than Bai Jiutian by aping his moves with our rank 1 Wuxiang Qiankun. Seems to me that he would still know his own moves better than us, and there are a few folks who seem to be gunning for the kill with A1 and I just don't see that happening. I think A1 is an option that ultimately compromises Jing and crew in exchange for somewhat better odds in a fight.

B1 isn't a bad option to consider. Yes, we won't get to practice our skill for now, but restraining ourselves from a fight at the moment will at least ensure that Zhang Manxing doesn't escape with his life again. And, well, it might have interesting consequences in the long-term; BJ seems to be as paranoid as the average Codexer, so if we tell him that we possess the manual without any proof, he might suspect that we're making shit up and underestimate us down the road. We probably aren't going to kill him here, even using the WQS, and I'd prefer to have him help us against the Zhang Clan, but I don't think that this will be possible without revealing something on our part.

I'm still not quite sure what to vote yet, just trying to give a different perspective.

Well, I'm still remembering this post of treave's:

It would be easier to talk about such things when he isn't yet fully convinced you have the skill and might want to tease some information out of you to be sure. The both of you would have something to offer the other, making for a tense and strange but perhaps workable relationship.

It seems to me here that our odds of cooperation increase when Bai Jiutian doesn't think we have the Wuxiang Qiankun skill.

 

[Baltika9]

Actually, even at rank 1, we will mimic him perfectly and remove the gap in sword skills altogether. That's what WQS does. So, yeah, it levels the playing field for us.

 

[Absinthe]

Even if we mimic him perfectly, that doesn't answer Profreshinal's point that Bai Jiutian with his high sword skill can easily come up with counters to his own techniques on the fly. We wont have that same luxury with our lower sword skill and familiarity and I suspect our moves would be very predictable for him.

It might remove the gap in technique, but I'm not so sure about removing the gap in skill.

 

[Baltika9]

If he makes a counter on the fly, then we will copy it immediately and he's back at square one. We're copying the dude's movements.

 

[Absinthe]

In the words of Profreshinal: "I'm sure BJ is very comfortable counter-counter-countering Huashan techniques. WQS is strong but it's only lvl 1 and it's not yet going supersaiyan."

Problem is, I think Bai Jiutian will still be a step ahead the whole time throughout this counter game.

 

[Kipeci]

He can easily come up with counters to any of his own moves, even his own counters, but fortunately his skills won't allow him to come up with any counter for our special Japanese skills in A2.

 

[Nevill]

I'm inclined to agree with Nevill that taking him on without using our legendary neigong is a terrible idea and a pointless gamble.

Ah, but see, this is not what I was saying at all. Trying to take him down without necessary skills or techniques is a terrible idea. Taking him on, on the other hand, is likely to merely result in us losing. But whether it is going to be that bad is another question entirely.

I think I'll flop to A1 > D. I don't like D since I think it's better to let Zhang scamper off and die of dickrot (there's no way he's dead and we've already used WQ against his posse so that cat's out of the bag already if he were knowledgeable enough to know anything about it) but it's much better than A2.

Did you consider the possibility that if zhang is really alive, as that is what you seem to be hoping for, and if BJ audibly confirms that we have WQS, we might be in an even deeper shit than him?

Do you also realize that zhang escaping can be that one factor that throws BJ off our tail in A2? He does not gain anything by killing us if manxing makes it to Master Nie alive.

Personally, I am still hoping for a secret D option.

 

[Absinthe]

He can easily come up with counters to any of his own moves, even his own counters, but fortunately his skills won't allow him to come up with any counter for our special Japanese skills in A2.

I didn't say he couldn't come up with counters for this, but I did say that it's harder for him. Heck, I'll quote treave again:

It wouldn't make the top five best sword techniques, but it's the sort that scales well with the user; in contrast to techniques that make the user powerful (legendary manuals etc), here it is the user that makes the technique powerful, if that makes sense. The moves in the Minamoto-ryuu style are ones that Central Plains pugilists have few counters for, so it's up to the user to make it count. 'Order' mode will help improve the first and second moves, and with the first part of the fourth move.

 

[Baltika9]

In the words of Profreshinal: "I'm sure BJ is very comfortable counter-counter-countering Huashan techniques. WQS is strong but it's only lvl 1 and it's not yet going supersaiyan."

Problem is, I think Bai Jiutian will still be a step ahead the whole time throughout this counter game.

Okay. Then we copy his counter-counter-counter. We're copying his movements and qi flow, not his thought process. What he does, we do. And then we bide our time to close in and fistfuck his skull.

 

[Kipeci]

Let the Zhang clan send their regards, we trashed their goons once and can do it again.

edit:

I didn't say he couldn't come up with counters for this, but I did say that it's harder for him. Heck, I'll quote treave again:

I saw the quote, but it's interesting how you spin the Japanese techniques as some sort of failsafe that will cream BJ when coupled with an almighty perception boost of plus two while access to the entirety of BJ's repertoire of moves performed at his level of skill is just all going to be blocked and worthless as he effortlessly devises counters for the counters of the counters of his moves.

 

[Absinthe]

Kipeci, did you forget the Zhang clan has Xiaoming Jiuyang manual now? EDIT: Also, I never said that was a failsafe. You read that all on your own. I said our kenjutsu also has its own benefits which you are overlooking.

Baltika9, so you will let him stay a step ahead the whole time because you just want to bide your time for that one opportunity? Giving up the initiative is bad, you know. But I think we're getting too sidetracked into a hypothetical fight. The main point is simply that Bai Jiutian is probably more able to take on his own techniques than we are while using his techs.

 

[Esquilax]

Even if we mimic him perfectly, that doesn't answer Profreshinal's point that Bai Jiutian with his high sword skill can easily come up with counters to his own techniques on the fly. We wont have that same luxury with our lower sword skill and familiarity and I suspect our moves would be very predictable for him.

It might remove the gap in technique, but I'm not so sure about removing the gap in skill.

We don't need to be a better swordsman than Bai Jiutian to defeat him. We need the mimicking abilities from WQS to be a good enough swordsman to keep BJ on his toes and overwhelm him so that we can close in on him with our unarmed techniques, where we'd have the advantage. I reckon that's what Jing would do in A1. Look, there are plenty of downsides in A1, you don't need to makeup ridiculous hypothetical scenarios like Bai Jiutian creating an endless series of counter-counter-counter-techniques on the fly to kick our ass anyways so because of that we should vote A2 and +1 SWORDS.

In any case, this is a terrible line of argumentation.

Anyways, I am strongly considering B2 at the moment; we tell Bai Jiutian that we're Lord of the Fire Temple and mislead him into thinking that we've delved into some other skill. Given that Yunzi and Armaiti are both with us, I think he'd buy it. We'd convince him that we're powerful enough with our secret Fire Cult skills that maybe he shouldn't fuck with us here, but at the same time, since we aren't (to his knowledge) in the possession of one of the Three Manuals, he might be willing to work with us to take down the Zhang family. The major downside here is that we'd have to double-cross BJ perfectly before he manages to reveal to the orthodox world that Ahura is toast.

This is a gamble, but given BJ's arrogance, I think that misleading him along these lines can really pay off in the near-future. Let him think he's won over us and gotten the truth out of us, then make him pay for underestimating us once we go to greet the Zhang Clan.

B2, though I'm still very open to flopping. There's just a ton of danger in revealing that Ahura is dead to the Fire Cult's worst enemy here.

 

[profreshinal]

We can't give BJ any info or more leads to the WQS unless we kill him right after. If BJ can confirm his suspicions then his next step is actually learning/getting the skill, we'll never get rid of him after that.

And how does he do that?

I'm sure he can think of something. If he fails to do it himself he can always tell to his scheming mommy while keeping it hidden from the Zangs.

BJ is not going to try and help us get a second legendary skill. he wants to be the strongest just like he always has been, helping someone to become stronger then him with no way to beat that person sounds implausable to me. BJ is going to want that WQS skill and trying to take it from vagabond MTP looks a lot easier then trying to grab something from the influential Zhang clan.