[LP CYOA] 傳

[Jester]

We didn't come here necessarily to help him out. I missed out on all the discuss for going here in the first place, but it seems to me that everyone just has a hard-on for legendary skills.
Besides, Jing has shown on numerous occaisions that he is perfectly willing to throw his friends under the rug when they explicitly ask him for his help (Shun) or never opt to visit them when he has had multiple opportunities to do so (Guo Fu).
I know that I am getting a bit away from the matter at hand, but I don't think that "Xuxian is a bro" is anywhere near a good enough reason possibly to ruin ourselves over. I don't think that the pros are in any way good enough to outweigh the cons and uncertainty.

Every time any of our friends were (or it looked like) i am in deep shiet situation Jing gone to help. Shun with his dad, Jing first wife, Minamoto clan, Yu, Yunzi in Ashina tribe etc We never throw under rug person we know are in trouble and we did not try to get to Gou now because we got a powerful people on our neck and leading them to friend whos first born arrived couple of months ago is NOT BRO.
Write i dont wish to risk it instead of giving untrue excuses, true we didnt investigate 8 sects after Tufan but we did have pressing matter in Fire temple and Shun had Constables (it was more like rule empire instead of save me Jing mission IMO). And our bad reputation would make us kinda bad match to his mission.

 

[Kayerts]

I think that we're a better matchup for the Abbot for reasons that Esquilax has articulated. I think Absinthe is overstating his case, but his core arguments are reasonable. Since the result of a loss is a game over, and it seems like the margin of uncertainty is significant here, I'm inclined to go with B. However, given that we're now the sworn enemy of Clan Zhang, avoiding dangerous situations that would afford us a sizeable power-up may also be dangerous. (For the record, I thought sneaking into the Fire Temple was unnecessarily risky, too, and that was by far the biggest power-up we've had.)

My very hazy impression of the combat value of Big Wang-level neigong is that more talented martial artists will be able to find specific skill-based counters to it, whereas lesser ones are likely to be overpowered by it. For this reason, and for Xuxian's established record in dealing non lethally with Shaolin mooks--less skilled than the 18, but still presumably not novices--and for the psychological edge, it seems like a better matchup.

A1

Our very own Dak'kon.

Well, Xuezi seems to be shaping up to be our very own Morte.

 

[Absinthe]

Kayerts

I think for the psychological edge, facing 18 people is harder than facing 1. You're also underestimating the fact that this is not just an 18 on 1 fight. This is also a full on formation technique, and I do not believe Xuxian has the skill to take on the whole formation without harming a single one of them. Jing, however, does. At the same time, yes, I think Shouwang Claws are a terrible idea to use in this challenge. Even if the abbot can handle the claws, we should not use our lethal techniques against him just because we're hoping he's strong enough to take it, lose to it, but not be harmed by it. The theme of the trial is restraint, so going in thinking "oh yeah we should totally use everything" is really doing it wrong.

I know you want to believe that these 18 are just like any other 18 random dudes so Xuxian should be able to handle them, but that's just not the case.

 

[ChumBucket]

Addendum to my vote: A1>A2, I just don't want B to win. That is the cowards way out, and not a good representation of Man Tiger Pig. Any Pugilist worth his salt would jump at the chance to test his mettle against the best the Shaolin Temple has to offer.

 

[Kayerts]

If I were to argue for A2, the argument would be that superior neigong would allow Xuxian to bring down an individually more skilled foe, since even a skilled foe has weaknesses which superior power can exploit. Whereas the diverse strength and weaknesses of the 18 would make that difficult; also, veteran pugilists, accustomed to fighting together, would be able to support each other in a manner not well-suited to Xuxian simply overpowering them.

I don't think this is a bad argument, but then, neither is the argument that Zhang Jue-lite will be capable of finding a technique that wrecks a stronger foe, especially one who feels guilty about his previous clash with him.

 

[Absinthe]

I don't think the Abbot's goal is to beat Xuxian senseless. He just wants to face him in a non-harmful fight and see whether he is truly capable of wielding it in accordance with Shaolin principles. If we look at the example of Reverend Huichan as opposed to Fangzhang, you see that Huichan was able to pass the trial without soundly beating the current abbot. So Xuxian just has to convince the abbot in the trial. He doesn't need to beat him.

And I think the Abbot is really Xuxian's responsibility anyway. Xuxian has a burden to show he learned from his mistakes, so confronting the abbot again without harming him would the way to prove that.

As for techniques that wreck a stronger foe, that's Wudang's specialty, not Shaolin's. At any rate, Xuxian was able to beat the Abbot before, so I think he's capable of confronting him.

 

[tropic]

Going with A2 for three reasons:

1. Xuxian is more likely to lose to the 18, evinced by the facts that he has already beaten the abbot and had combat experience in the meantime.

2. If he fights the 18, there is a greater chance that someone will be wounded in the melee.

3. He is not likely to hurt the abbot, who is quite sturdy.

 

[ChumBucket]

Just thought of another factor. If the 18 are not beaten, there will be no fight with the abbot, and the man that needs convincing is the abbot himself. Switching to A2>A1. You are quite persuasive Absinthe.

 

[treave]

FINE! A2 I'm blaming treave for this.

Blame this on the misfortune of your birth!

 

[Absinthe]

Updated voting tally:

Spoiler

Kz3r0 B
Kipeci A1
The Brazilian Slaughter B>A2
ERYFKRAD A1
Akkudakku A2
Smashing Axe A2>B
profreshinal B
Azira A2>A1
asxetos A1
XenomorphII B
LWC1996 A1
Jester A2
Esquilax A1
Baltika9 A1>B
Rex Feral B>A2>A1
Nevill B>A1
Elfberserker B
Tigranes A1>B
ChumBucket A2>A1
Kashmir Slippers B
Tribute A1>A2
Fangshi B
Absinthe A2
Grimgravy A2>B
tropic A2
Kayerts A1
Sunnmøring C>A1
ScubaV A2>A1
m4davis B
Random Word A2
archaen A2
Ganymede B
Zero Credibility B

A1 - 9
A2 - 11
B - 12
C - 1 (with conditional flop to A1)

 

[tropic]

The first post is not updated with the latest chapter.

 

[profreshinal]

Xuxian has an unfair burden he cannot handle by himself. Lets face it, there is no way he will succeed with B. At this point we just prove we are not willing to risk our own skin to save a friend. That's not who Xu Jing is. Xuxian's responsibility is to confront the Abbot, with A2 we let him do that.

I think Both Jing and Xuxian have the capabilities to beat both parts of the challenge. Xuxian however lacks confidence in his own abilities and that's what Jing would try and improve in B. A small improvement to his control combined with some pep-talk can make Xuxian believe in himself and his control of his powers so he can go in without fear of accidentally hurting anyone and with confidence to face the abbot.

 

[Absinthe]

We still have that time to prepare either way. In fact, if we go with A2, Xuxian might even gain some more prep time with Xuezi because we're going first.

 

[Esquilax]

Xuxian was never a skilled martial artist. He may have become much better by learning these techniques, but that was largely an increase in raw power. Even if his skills have improved, you're trying to suggest his skills are good enough to face the entire 18man formation, which requires some master-level skill. Stop trying to downplay the word "formation" to mean "a bunch of guys fighting Xuxian together." This is some serious teamwork where all 18 fight as one. And we all know that Jing has much more experience facing large numbers of enemies at the same time and dismantling formations. Sure, we haven't seen or learned this one before, but that hasn't stopped us from breaking other formations either.
...
In the end, A2 is the clear option. Xuxian has defeated the abbot before. He can defeat the abbot again, and better control means he's more able to refrain from injuring the abbot this time. At the same time, Jing can face the 18man formation. Not only can we use Wuxiang Qiankun on the formation, but we also have a lot of experience facing formations and multiple opponents in general, so we know how to handle these kinds of things (unlike Xuxian who would be overwhelmed). Both of us go where we have the most experience (facing abbot for Xuxian, facing formations for Jing) and both of us can afford to hold back there (If Xuxian defeated the abbot before, he can afford to practice restraint, and if Jing faces weaker individuals, he can afford to avoid using his Shouwang Claws).

I had never intended to downplay it - there's no doubt that this formation is indeed very tough if it's going to be just as hard as facing Abbot Zhang. My point was to state that just because you are good at breaking one type of formation, doesn't mean you have the experience and the skills to counter a different one. Just like individual techniques, there's a huge variety of them, so saying that "Jing is great at breaking formations" is vague as saying "Jing is great at countering techniques". Okay, which ones, in what context, and how strong are the practitioners and the technique themselves?

There are good arguments for A2 that Kayerts outlined, but this isn't one of them.

No, dude. The philosophical outlook of this is complete shit. The trial is about learning to control your strength, not "how to go balls-out crazy and hope to somehow defeat your opponent without injuring him too much because hopefully his defenses are in the perfect sweet spot of being weak enough for you to overcome yet strong enough to endure your onslaught without injury." That's not only some massive wishful thinking, it also shows that you have completely failed to understand the point of the trial.
...
Sharing responsibility is well and good and all, but facing the Abbot is part of Xuxian's personal journey for growth, and we shouldn't take that away from him.
...
Letting loose is exactly what we are not supposed to do. This is how we will fail the test in A1. A2 we can overcome with cleverness and other techniques like the Wuying Leipo Kick (which moves in a way formations are weak against) and rank 9 Xianglong 18 Palms (which is said to be the strongest palm technique in the 8 sects). Just by quickly taking down a few guys we can really break apart their formation.

This is a test of restraint, you're right, and we will have to show that we are as controlled as we are powerful, but the update states that we can afford to let loose a bit more against him as well:

You face Abbot Fangci. Xuxian seems to fear him plenty, and that may be a mental block if he is to duel the Abbot. His comment about being weaker than Fangzhang does not necessarily mean he is weaker than the Arhats, too. He also seems like the beefy sort who is less likely to be injured by your techniques, compared to the rest of the skinny monks.

I'm not saying we need to go all out with killing intent when we face the Abbot - fuck no, that's a horrible idea - just that we can worry less than we would against the 18-man formation. As for Xuxian's personal journey for growth, that's an interesting point, but isn't knowing not to hurt his peers equally important to his personal journey? The moment we join the trial, his journey becomes ours, so it's up to us to pick the fight that suits each of us the best.

 

[Absinthe]

Well, more to the point, our Wuying Leipo Kick usually proves to be a technique that works well against formations by catching them off-guard. We also have master-level unarmed skill which improves our ability to face a large formation like this. Xuxian might be able to beat the formation, but I have my doubts about him doing so without harming them.

As for a test of restraint, I don't think we can both hold back against the Abbot and subdue him. We're not that good. In the end, facing the abbot is bait for us to be drawn into a serious fight where we get sloppy about the "no harming others" rule. When it comes down to it, I think Xuxian benefits more from confronting a single resilient opponent than us.

With regards to Xuxian's personal journey, Xuxian injured the abbot when he escaped. He also needs to prove himself to the abbot. I think the fight with the abbot should be his.

 

[treave]

If you guys want to have lengthy discussions about this choice, most of the clues can already be found throughout the update itself.

 

[Absinthe]

Well, I've already posted analysis on why I think winning A qualifies us to learn Xuxian's skill. Might as well get some other quotes then.

Why I think B will fail:

“Didn’t you beat the Abbot before? Just go even more lightly on him this time around,” you whisper.

“I am pretty sure he was holding back at the time,” mutters Xuxian nervously. “To take both him and the Eighteen Arhats on without injuring any of them… I don’t know if I can do that.”

So here he explains he doubts he can handle all of them. Side-note: he has doubts about taking on the eighteen arhats without injuring any of them, so he doesn't trust his control against a whole formation. Good sign we should vote A2.

You look at the sweating Xuxian. “What do you want to do?”

“I… I’ll give my best and fight, but I cannot expect you to risk your own wugong to assist me, Young Master Xu. Just the help you rendered in providing this chance for a trial by combat is sufficient. Asking you for more help at this point would be improper,” he says.

And here he emphasizes how he cannot ask Jing for help twice over when we ask him what he wants to do. That means yes he does want help. Profreshinal, what do you think?

 

[Sunnmøring]

Righteous stuff

Can anyone tell me how to properly brofist someone, by the way?

I'm going to vote C>A1. We can't afford to let Xuxian's powers get wasted, and though I'd prefer to just book it out of here (relatively little risk to us, Xuxian's power is saved, he has no restriction on reteaching the stuff) that's obviously not going to win and A1 looks like the least stupid way out of this. The Abbot is strong enough to take the blows (remember how Xu Jing's claws intended to tear through tendons like tissue paper didn't even break through Guo Fu's skin, and that was when he wasn't using protective techniques?) while Jing's maimed or killed at least one person for most of the tag teams he's faced since the earliest days of his training, especially when he faces many at once.

also to treave again since he can't possibly have enough bro-fistings

 

[Jester]

Righteous stuff

Can anyone tell me how to properly brofist someone, by the way?

After year brofist you can.

 

[Tribute]

The Abbot is strong enough to take the blows (remember how Xu Jing's claws intended to tear through tendons like tissue paper didn't even break through Guo Fu's skin, and that was when he wasn't using protective techniques?) while Jing's maimed or killed at least one person for most of the tag teams he's faced since the earliest days of his training, especially when he faces many at once.

Jing's quite a bit better with Shouwang Claws than he was when he fought Guo Fu.

Then again, the Abbot should also be better at Iron Body Skill than Guo Fu was.

 

[Absinthe]

Sunnmøring, in a contest of power, I'd rather have Xuxian go up against the resilient abbot. Xuxian's problem was his lack of control, and while he's improved it, defeating an entire 18-man formation (roughly as strong as the Abbot) without harming anyone requires far too much control for him.

Jing, on the other hand, has the moves and skill that would allow him to defeat the formation without harming them.

 

[ScubaV]

A2 > A1

 

[Absinthe]

Esquilax, Nevill, how do you respond to this argument? According to the update, the abbot and the eighteen bronze arhats are roughly equal in difficulty. Furthermore, Xuxian has some difficulty controlling his strength. Therefore, Xuxian should face the resilient abbot instead of the eighteen bronze arhats.

 

[Jester]

change my conditional into A2 only

 

[Absinthe]

Done.