[LP CYOA] 傳

[Absinthe]

Nevill, what do you think of this point? As you say, according to the update, the abbot and the eighteen bronze arhats are roughly equal in difficulty. We also know that Xuxian cannot fully control his strength. Therefore, Xuxian should face the resilient abbot instead of the eighteen bronze arhats.

 

[Fangshi]

Fangshi, could you flop to A2?

Afraid not. I approach it from a different angle.

I am not really concerned with if he can win or not, I just do not think it is our fight.

Honestly I agree with the abbot.

He broke the rules he agreed to live by, he attacked the leader of his sect and he fled from his punishment. If he can not win both matches then I think he should submit to their punishment or he should not have come back in the first place.

So sticking with B, let him succeed or fail like a man.

If the monks really want to have a fight to prove our worth or something afterward then I am fine with that as well.

 

[archaen]

A2 for hobo rider!

 

[Absinthe]

Fangshi, fair enough. What about the point that winning with A means we can obtain Xuxian's legendary skill?

Fangci’s booming laugh echoes around the hall, amused by your request. “Do you think it easy, Xu Jing? This trial necessitates that you prove you are worthy of using a technique in a way that does not disgrace Shaolin’s name. It means that you must not harm or kill your opponent in the trial, that you demonstrate skill and mercy in your wugong. Are you confident that you can defeat us in such a manner, with your half-hearted mastery of martial arts, Xuxian?”

[...]

“If you succeed, I am willing to spare you on the condition that you can never impart that skill to anyone else… I may trust you to use it wisely, but any disciples you take are another matter,” says the Abbot.

So the trial is to prove that Xuxian is worthy of bearing the skills. And the reason he is not permitted to teach others is because they are not proven trustworthy. Then he tells us this:

“If you are to share in the trial, you must also share in the punishment, should he or you fail. Are you willing to do so, Xu Jing? If you fail, we will consider you as having failed our precepts, under our teachings, and inflict upon you the same punishment as Xuxian.”

Now, on the other side of this logic, it means that if we succeed, then they will be forced to consider Jing as having upheld their precepts under their teachings for Xuxian's skill.

So we would have proven ourselves worthy of the skill just like Xuxian, which in turn means Xuxian would have to be permitted to teach us.

Treave himself then disclosed this much:

You have a better chance of impressing a bunch of warrior monks and being given special dispensation to learn stuff if you fight and prove yourself in their eyes.

Uh... obviously? Did I need to spell it out?

 

[Fangshi]

What about the point that winning with A means we can obtain Xuxian's legendary skill?

A definite possibility and a reason to go with A. I still maintain though that this is something he should do on his own win or lose. It is his price to pay as heavy as it is and I suspect his master sent him back to pay it. I would prefer to let this play out one way or the other and then propose working together with the monks.


Also treave simply says that fighting the monks (by their rules) is the best way to win them over.

I have no problem setting up a fight with them afterward (when they have had time to recover) and testing our worth then. I just think we should do it separately from Xuxian's challenge.



I also have no problem working with them to find and destroy (I suspect I am in a minority there ) the skill that is out there.

Something about 'super skills' always rubs me the wrong way and some things may not be meant for mortal man so I quite like his stance on the manuals in general. His whole attitude is quite refreshing, everyone is scrambling for these texts and he is just sitting there confident in the techniques his sect pioneered. He reminds me of Zhang Jue in that regard, that complete confidence in his abilities.

I really respect that even if it is not the wisest move.

 

[Absinthe]

Fair enough.

 

[Tribute]

One of the A choices fails the trial.

I have no idea if this means Xuxian's inevitably going to fail the trial in B, or if we lose in the losing A option because of Jing.

Crap.

 

[Absinthe]

If you scroll up a bit, you'll see my case for why I think Xuxian will fail if we pick B (because he thinks he'll fail and he wants our help).

I'm convinced A2 is the successful choice since Xuxian doesn't have to worry about his control nearly as much against the resilient abbot than against the 18 man formation. The update says the two are roughly equal in difficulty so I think having enough control to avoid harming one's opponent is the deciding factor.

 

[Tribute]

Jing doesn't have a very good track record with regard to not maiming or killing people when fighting many opponents.

Then again, the only time he's tried this after learning WQS he was specifically trying to kill.

 

[Absinthe]

Jing has master-level unarmed skill (much better control) and rank 9 Xianglong 18 Palms technique (said to be the strongest palm technique in the Eight Sects) now though. If Jing decides not to harm his opponents, he can do so.

Heck, here's a treave quote about the beggar sect's techniques:

Their most renowned techniques are the Dragon Subduing Eighteen Palms, regarded as the most powerful palm technique, and also the Dog-Beating Staff Technique, which is used only by the leader of the Beggars' Sect and good at humiliating your opponent by thrashing him like a damn dirty dog.

Hey, ERYFKRAD, would you be willing to flop to A2? You voted B because the rewards for A were too low. Turns out winning with A most likely means we can obtain Xuxian's legendary skill.

Fangci’s booming laugh echoes around the hall, amused by your request. “Do you think it easy, Xu Jing? This trial necessitates that you prove you are worthy of using a technique in a way that does not disgrace Shaolin’s name. It means that you must not harm or kill your opponent in the trial, that you demonstrate skill and mercy in your wugong. Are you confident that you can defeat us in such a manner, with your half-hearted mastery of martial arts, Xuxian?”

[...]

“If you succeed, I am willing to spare you on the condition that you can never impart that skill to anyone else… I may trust you to use it wisely, but any disciples you take are another matter,” says the Abbot.

So the trial is to prove that Xuxian is worthy of bearing the skills. And the reason he is not permitted to teach others is because they are not proven trustworthy. Then he tells us this:

“If you are to share in the trial, you must also share in the punishment, should he or you fail. Are you willing to do so, Xu Jing? If you fail, we will consider you as having failed our precepts, under our teachings, and inflict upon you the same punishment as Xuxian.”

Now, on the other side of this logic, it means that if we succeed, then they will be forced to consider Jing as having upheld their precepts under their teachings for Xuxian's skill.

So we would have proven ourselves worthy of the skill just like Xuxian, which in turn means Xuxian would have to be permitted to teach us.

Treave himself then disclosed this much:

You have a better chance of impressing a bunch of warrior monks and being given special dispensation to learn stuff if you fight and prove yourself in their eyes.

Uh... obviously? Did I need to spell it out?

 

[Baltika9]

So we're good enough to not injure eighteen junior fighters, but not good enough to do the same to a tough as nails Master? Right.

 

[Absinthe]

Since treave recently confirmed that our burden isn't to beat the abbot but just to face him without harming him, I'm not so worried about Jing fighting the abbot. Jing can fight either one. Right now my point is that Xuxian isn't good enough to not injure eighteen junior fighters. Indeed Xuxian himself in the update found the prospect of facing so many without harming anyone rather daunting.

“Didn’t you beat the Abbot before? Just go even more lightly on him this time around,” you whisper.

“I am pretty sure he was holding back at the time,” mutters Xuxian nervously. “To take both him and the Eighteen Arhats on without injuring any of them… I don’t know if I can do that.”

As the abbot is a single guy with higher endurance, I think Xuxian would do much better facing him.

 

[Smashing Axe]

Also Xuxian should quickly get over his fear of the Abbott when he's trading blows with the guy. Anxiety generally goes away once you get going.

 

[Esquilax]

A quick note regarding the Eighteen Palms technique:

But in general it's probably claws > kick > palm > sword at the moment. You haven't gotten the real heavy hitter moves of the Dragon Palms yet, those come in the second half. Though there's really little difference in actual 'effectiveness' right now. They're all very capable of bringing down a regular opponent, and against a stronger fighter it's more the matter of using the right approach and technique than whatever is more 'powerful'.

Keep in mind that we're nowhere near the good stuff, given that we've only got half of the technique down. If any technique is going to help us here, it's probably the fact that our proficiency at WQS would allow us to mimic the 18-man formation. I doubt any of the individual monks have an inner strength to exceed our own, and past history has shown that we can mimic and execute formations even better than people versed in them, so that's a decent argument.

I have no problem setting up a fight with them afterward (when they have had time to recover) and testing our worth then. I just think we should do it separately from Xuxian's challenge.

Ah fuck, something occurred to me - according to this logic, wouldn't it make sense that we have to do the trial with Xuxian as well? Not to shoulder his sins, but because of the fact that we also bear a legendary technique. In fact, perhaps our sin is greater than Xuxian's, because not only did we learn a forbidden manual, we shared that knowledge with Bai Jiutian and Xuezi (though I suspect that immortals are sorta exempt from the rules here). If by some miracle we pull through, we probably have to come clean about this too.

Right now my point is that Xuxian isn't good enough to not injure eighteen junior fighters. Indeed Xuxian himself in the update found the prospect of facing so many without harming anyone rather daunting.

You're taking that comment out of context:

“Didn’t you beat the Abbot before? Just go even more lightly on him this time around,” you whisper.

“I am pretty sure he was holding back at the time,” mutters Xuxian nervously. “To take both him and the Eighteen Arhats on without injuring any of them… I don’t know if I can do that.”

He was referring to both challenges. Look, there are good arguments for A2, but this is just grasping for straws. From the way I understood it, he just found the prospect of beating both trials very daunting, and it wasn't really just about the Arhats. I read this as him being worried about injuring either the monks or the Abbot, not just the Arhats.

 

[Absinthe]

A quick note regarding the Eighteen Palms technique:

Keep in mind that we're nowhere near the good stuff, given that we've only got half of the technique down. If any technique is going to help us here, it's probably the fact that our proficiency at WQS would allow us to mimic the 18-man formation. I doubt any of the individual monks have an inner strength to exceed our own, and past history has shown that we can mimic and execute formations even better than people versed in them, so that's a decent argument.

I've made this argument before also.

Ah fuck, something occurred to me - according to this logic, wouldn't it make sense that we have to do the trial with Xuxian as well? Not to shoulder his sins, but because of the fact that we also bear a legendary technique. In fact, perhaps our sin is greater than Xuxian's, because not only did we learn a forbidden manual, we shared that knowledge with Bai Jiutian and Xuezi (though I suspect that immortals are sorta exempt from the rules here). If by some miracle we pull through, we probably have to come clean about this too.

No, because we are not subject to Shaolin's laws. Hell if we use Wuxiang Qiankun in the challenge we are also proving we can use Wuxiang Qiankun responsibly. It would be absurd for them to suddenly decide it was good enough for one legendary skill but not another.

He was referring to both challenges. Look, there are good arguments for A2, but this is just grasping for straws. From the way I understood it, he just found the prospect of beating both trials very daunting, and it wasn't really just about the Arhats.

Oh, he certainly found the prospect of beating both trials daunting, but I think we can all at least agree that when his worry is injuring his opponents, facing just the abbot would be the best option for him.

 

[Nevill]

I think this is the case where the argument repeated for a hundred times gets an appearance of legitimacy.

Really, those are terrible arguments for A2. Saying that Wuying Leipo Kick is 26.583% more effective against formations or that Xianglong Eighteen Palms are precicely enough to bring down 18 opponents (one palm for each, hurr) is just wanking to numbers on the character's sheet. The arguments in its favor should come from the update itself, especially since it was stated the clues are already there.

Choosing the opponent based on their squishiness is another thing I am uncomfortable with. 'Xuxian does not control his skill well, so it is better to assign him to an opponent who can take it?' The whole point of the trial is for Xuxian to prove that he has full control over his skill! The Abbott does not want to paralyze him or to forgive him - he wants to ensure that Xuxian is no danger to the monastery. There is no failing 'a little'. As soon as Fangci gets even a slightest hint that Xuxian is not in control, there is no way this fight ends in anything other but failure, since the Abbott will try and press Xuxian into using his skill unwisely. Not because he is an evil monster, but because that is the meaning of the challenge.

We must either place our full trust in that Xuxian is able to control himself, as he says he does, or back off.

I guess the clues are too subtle for me to pick on them. Esquilax did cite the update, and came with the following:

The update also seems to imply that succeeding in the trial and defeating the Abbot soundly are two different things, based on the different accounts of Huichan and the late Abbot Fangzhang. treave, what was the difference between their performance in the trials that they faced? As I understood it, while Huichan came out victorious, he had a significantly harder time of the trial, and perhaps the Abbot of his day allowed him a victory when he showed that he was sufficiently skilled and controlled. On the other hand, Fangzhang managed to outdo his predecessor by outclassing his Abbot completely without harming him at all. Am I getting it right? If that's the case, then it implies that succeeding in the trial and beating the challenges soundly are two very different things.

The problem is, I still can't understand which choice this argument favors.

In absence of better ideas, I guess the honest thing to do would be to admit defeat and vote B. We can't win everywhere. In case it fails, I am sticking with my gut feeling.

Flopped to B>A1.

 

[Ganymede]

Xuixan did nothing wrong!

The position he finds himself in is a direct result of Shaolin incompetence. They failed to keep the manuals under wraps. They failed to teach and guide this kid. And when, despite their best efforts, he turns out to be a pretty good sort and goes to great lengths to make amends THIS is the treatment he gets?

"Oh we're so sorry, this is so tragic that we have to cripple you for your own good. But don't worry! We'll send a monk around every day to spoon rice into your dumb, drooling gob and wipe you down when you shit yourself. Under our care you can spend the next fifty years in this living hell that we've prepared for you. Ah it feels good to be a self-righteous cocksuck! Now that we've consigned the walking, talking testament to our failure to a lifetime of torturous atrophy we can go back to getting high off the smell of our own shit!" Fuck Shaolin. If C had any legs then that's what I'd be voting for.

As it is I'm torn. This whole thing feels like Xuixan's journey, and in comes Jing at the end to steal the spotlight. B works best for the narrative of the scene, where Jing is just there to give the guy a chance but in the end he has to stand alone, like all great martial artists.

Votan B

Could be though we're not talking about the journey of a great martial artist here, just a cook who's out of his depth. Treave has shown some questionable narrative sensibilities in the past. If Xuixan goes down I hope we have a chance to bail him out rather than let him get mutilated. You know codex will go for it.

 

[Baltika9]

I dunno. Xuxian is nervous about facing the Abbot, he thinks the old man was holding back on him and the Eighteen Asshats are individually weaker, which makes it easier for his merciful nature to pick apart. It's not them he fears, is the Abbot. Says so in the update. I'm pretty sure A1 is correct

 

[Absinthe]

Choosing the opponent based on their squishiness is another thing I am uncomfortable with. 'Xuxian does not control his skill well, so it is better to assign him to an opponent who can take it?' The whole point of the trial is for Xuxian to prove that he has full control over his skill! The Abbott does not want to paralyze him or to forgive him - he wants to ensure that Xuxian is no danger to the monastery. There is no failing 'a little'. As soon as Fangci gets even a slightest hint that Xuxian is not in control, there is no way this fight ends in anything other but failure, since the Abbott will try and press Xuxian into using his skill unwisely. Not because he is an evil monster, but because that is the meaning of the challenge.

Xuxian can control his skill, but controlling one's strength to defeat multiple opponents who are more fragile without hurting them is still much more difficult than just the Abbot. Since we're helping him, our goal should be to make things easy on him by giving him the most suitable opponent.

I guess the clues are too subtle for me to pick on them. Esquilax did cite the update, and came with the following:

Well I gave you what I found to be the clues:
Clue #1. Xuxian is worried about facing so many opponents without hurting them, even though he is doing better now.
Clue #2. Both challenges are roughly equal in difficulty.
Clue #3. The abbot is clearly the more resilient opponent.
Conclusion: Let Xuxian face the abbot. (So, A2 is the right option.)

As it is I'm torn. This whole thing feels like Xuixan's journey, and in comes Jing at the end to steal the spotlight. B works best for the narrative of the scene, where Jing is just there to give the guy a chance but in the end he has to stand alone, like all great martial artists.

Xuxian himself wants our help. When Jing asked him what he wants to do he rather politely explained twice how he was really grateful for our help and could not possibly ask us to risk ourselves. Additionally, facing the abbot would give him the spotlight. Sure, we would share some of it, but it's not like we're just doing his challenge for him. Xuxian gets to face the strongest fighter in all of Shaolin. He gets his cred and he can prove his worth. Besides, we're not here to be his mentor. We're here to be his friend, and friends share their troubles.

The way I see it, B will lead to Xuxian being crippled.

 

[Fangshi]

Ah fuck, something occurred to me - according to this logic, wouldn't it make sense that we have to do the trial with Xuxian as well? Not to shoulder his sins, but because of the fact that we also bear a legendary technique. In fact, perhaps our sin is greater than Xuxian's, because not only did we learn a forbidden manual, we shared that knowledge with Bai Jiutian and Xuezi (though I suspect that immortals are sorta exempt from the rules here). If by some miracle we pull through, we probably have to come clean about this too.

Not necessarily. Our tech was never something that the Shaolin had in their possession and we have never sworn their oaths. They have nothing on us really as the abbot himself mentioned when he told us he would not instruct us on how to rear 'our child'. We are not one of them and have no wish to become one of them. The rules need not be the same at all.

Now I actually have no problem fighting the 18 man formation and the Abbot if that is what it takes to impress them but what we stand to gain or lose would be completely different I imagine. We would not be asking to learn a forbidden tech from them, we would simply be asking for access to their library (and possible a dispensation to let the girls in so they can help us search for our lead).

Essentially what Absinthe said, I agree entirely.

Edit:
(In regards to Shaolin's attitude to our tech in particular... happy Nevill?)

 

[Nevill]

I dunno. Xuxian is nervous about facing the Abbot, he thinks the old man was holding back on him and the Eighteen Asshats are individually weaker, which makes it easier for his merciful nature to pick apart. It's not them he fears, is the Abbot. Says so in the update.

I concur. It would be nice to quote the update when making statements.

I see nothing that says he is afraid to face many opponents.

“I am pretty sure he was holding back at the time,” mutters Xuxian nervously. “To take both him and the Eighteen Arhats on without injuring any of them… I don’t know if I can do that.”

He is unsure of beating them both in equal measure, and he has extra feelings weighing him down in the Abbott's case. So there is that.

Why would it be harder to control the skill against many weaker opponents than against a single strong one, I have no idea. You don't have to go over the top with the weaker opponents in the first place.

All in all, there are not enough arguments supporting either of the decisions.

 

[Tribute]

I just don't want to see Xuxian crippled permanently.

 

[Nevill]

I just don't want to see Xuxian crippled permanently.

So let's try to find these clues instead of mumbling the same things over and over again.

Essentially what Absinthe said, I agree entirely.

Even with the part that says we'll totes get the technique Fangci is desperate to keep under wraps and is not going to use even in the Temple's defense?

(In regards to Shaolin's attitude to our tech in particular... happy Nevill?)

Absolutely. I don't know why it is even a point of contention. We are not of the temple and are not subject to their rules until we say so.

 

[Absinthe]

Nevill, his worry is not facing his opponents, specifically. His worry is to take them without injuring any of them. We can all agree he would be less likely to injure the abbot, yes? Against 18 weaker opponents, Xuxian's focus is divided and he has to pay extra attention to make sure he doesn't injure his enemies (since it takes less to hurt them).

Against the Abbot, Xuxian only needs to worry about a single foe, and that opponent has some very strong toughness indeed. It's much more feasible for Xuxian to demonstrate a controlled strength against the abbot than to defeat the 18man formation without harming a single person.

 

[profreshinal]

Xuxian isn't just nervous about the abbot. He's feared to death by the abbot. Crippling fear even.

Xuxian!” he barks, causing the lad to stiffen up in fright.

“Yes, Abbot!” squeaks Xuxian

Abbot Fangci,” Xuxian says tremulously,

The only argument Xuxian makes for himself is in all his uncertainty is

“I’ve learnt to control it better now.”

which is about an equal strong argument for both fights.