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4X Master of Orion II turns 25

Discussion in 'Strategy and Simulation' started by Morblot, Nov 22, 2021.

?

The best race is...

  1. Alkari

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  2. Bulrathi

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Darlocks

    3.7%
  4. Elerians

    14.8%
  5. Gnolams

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Humans

    22.2%
  7. Klackons

    11.1%
  8. Meklars

    11.1%
  9. Mrrshan

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  10. Psilons

    29.6%
  11. Sakkra

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. Silicoids

    7.4%
  13. Trilarians

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. GreyViper Erudite

    GreyViper
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    Good game, we used to play it and HoMM 2 as hotseat a lot around 90s. Honorable mentions to Stars! Ill say this much the original is still way better then the new remake. The only game that I felt came close to invoking the same feeling I got playing Moo2 is StarDrive 2, since Moo3 was shit.
     
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  2. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
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    Capping Antarians is basically an exercise in throwing massive numbers of dudes at them until you luck out. Getting them to show up at ALL requires lucking out. Getting them to show up where your fleet actually is, even more luck. If you get some access to some of the techs early, though, they will make you basically invincible. Well, more invincible. With Antarian tech, you can build a ship capable of tanking multiple Death Stars per turn and are totally untouchable to anything LESS than that, as I've made a Titan-class ship that can facetank 300 enemies without taking any damage that isn't healed away by the next turn.

    Of course, by then, the game is really long over.

    Stars has the advantage of being MUCH more multiplayer-capable due to its turn structure, since it avoids the entire exponential uptime probability thing. I've tried to get a game going recently, but not enough people were interested.
     
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  3. Zero Credibility Arcane

    Zero Credibility
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    Yep. It can be done early enough to make a difference, but it's very much luck based. Early on only the smallest ships could maybe be captured, by throwing enough assault shuttles at them until you have about 20 marines for each Antaran. This plus whatever ground combat tech you could research/steal by that time may be enough to do the job, assuming the ship doesn't just blow up at that point.

    It's more of a gimmick than a real strategy really, but I do have fond memories of a couple times I pulled it off and then ran over the galaxy blowing up enemy fleets with impunity. Later in the game capturing Antaran ships becomes trivial, but by that time you don't really need their tech to win.
     
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  4. Morblot Aberrant Member Patron

    Morblot
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    PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
    I've never captured an Antaran ship (without it blowing up). Do you get some tech you can't get by beating the Guardian?
     
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  5. Endemic Arcane

    Endemic
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    Neutron Blasters help though, since Antarans have Damper Fields instead of shielding.
     
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  6. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
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    I remember neutron blasters, but I forget whether damper fields nerfed them at some point or not. I vaguely recall something happening in that department in a patch because neutron cannoning them made it awfully easy.
     
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  7. Zero Credibility Arcane

    Zero Credibility
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    Kinda? You only get four techs (I think) from Orion, randomly chosen. Some of those you can't even research normally, so if you don't get them from Orion the Antarans are the only way.

    Also, yes, sadly they patched Damper Fields to protect against Neuron Blaster killing marines. Now you need Death Ray for that. Of course, if you have that you won the game already.
     
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  8. Nutria Arcane Patron

    Nutria
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    Strap Yourselves In
    I seem to remember falling into this strategy out of dumb luck once because I was behind in certain techs and wanted to capture an enemy ship and then the Antarans ran right into the fleet I had built for that mission.
     
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  9. Endemic Arcane

    Endemic
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    IIRC you always get Death Ray (which the Antarans don't have) and then 3 other random techs from the following: Particle Beam, Black Hole Generator, Spatial Compressor, Damper Field, Xentronium Armor, Quantum Detonator.
     
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  10. Morblot Aberrant Member Patron

    Morblot
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    Darlok spy steals
    Darlok spy steals
    Darlok spy steals
    ...

    :rage:
     
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  11. Galdred Studio Draconis Patron Developer

    Galdred
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    From what I remember, greater numbers are all you need to capture antarian ships, but most of them will explode.
    I tried to play the game in multiplayer, but the battles make it take too long, and without these, you don't get to design your ships. I ended up finding Space Empires 4 more suited to mutiplayer, which is a shame, because MOO2 is really a great game.

    As for MOO2 making MOO1 obsolete, I don't agree. I prefer replaying the first one, because it has less micromanagement, especially when it comes to maximizing population output (because MOO2 made your citizens bang each other more frequently in backwater moons than developed planets, so you need to constantly make sure these still have room for growth).
     
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  12. Adidas-Clichèd Cringe Learned Patron

    Adidas-Clichèd Cringe
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    Insert Title Here
    One little detail I really like is how each race has a different model/skin for a scientist, spy master and military officer when gaining tech.
     
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  13. GreyViper Erudite

    GreyViper
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    Yep it has a lot of small nice details some nods and references to that period pop culture. Also id like to point out how the models look way better than remake ones from races to tech IMHO.
    Regarding Anterians, yep boarding shuttle spam is what I used to capture their ships, it was usually 50/50 but definitely doable.
    Morblot If someone picked Darlock in our hotseat game, that person empire tended to be the first to be wiped out, come to think the same thing happened to AI to funny that.
     
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  14. Storyfag Perfidious Pole Patron

    Storyfag
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    Oh yes, the atmosphere is superb.

    :love:

    BTW, does anyone remember which UI screen is framed by two multi-armed chicks? The end score, perhaps?
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
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  15. Morblot Aberrant Member Patron

    Morblot
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    Yes

    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Inconceivable Learned

    Inconceivable
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    Oh yes, MOO2. The unparalleled space grand strategy game.

    Endless Space 2, Stellaris and others are feeling neglected, alone and unplayed in my game library, because when I get that itch to be space emperor, it's really hard to walk past MOO2 and to try something new.

    Most times I play the game I feel the urge to be galactic space police, by trying to prevent any one race from completely destroying the other, so that all empires can coexist until the end of the game. I feel like this is some kind of obligation to preserve the cultural and racial diversity of the cosmos, but it also serves the in-game benefit that I get to trade more techs, and increase the chances of getting access to all technologies, the more civilizations exist to trade with (since all species except Psilons have 1-tech per field limit). Saving the Psilons from destruction and if possible allying with them is extra-important.
    Also I like to conquer at least one planet of every race that has production bonuses, so that I can super-optimize my planets with a multi-speciesmax output combination of Sakkra farmers, Psilon researchers, Klackon workers, unified in a harmonic and diverse society. I love this micromanagement aspect of this game.

    The only thing I don't like about MOO2 is that bombs are practically useless, yet the AI is programmed to use them, thereby handicapping the efficiency of his ships, which always felt like an unfair advantage to a human player who doesn't waste money and space for that.
     
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  17. Endemic Arcane

    Endemic
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    You can use them in conjunction with transporters. ;)

     
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  18. Inconceivable Learned

    Inconceivable
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    Yes, I think the AI sometimes even uses transporters to drop bombs even on other ships if I'm not mistaken? This is neat.
    But for actual planetary bombardment, normal spaceship weapons are already so effective, it's usually just not worth it to load up on bombs. So I've always thought of them as dead weight.
     
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  19. Zero Credibility Arcane

    Zero Credibility
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    So, after reading this thread I took MoO2 for another spin. And it really is as great as it was years ago. A real classic. But then it left me with a craving for more, and seeing as some people claim that MoO3 is not as bad as it's made out to be, I reluctantly decided to give it as well another try, with all the fan patches I could find. Maybe, maybe it will not be as bad as I remember it.

    Well, guess what - it's even worse than I remember it. MoO3 an unwieldy and slow behemoth that just wants to play itself, and getting the game to stop doing what you don't want it to do and do what you do want quickly becomes an exercise in pure frustration as the number of colonies to give orders to grows out of control. The entire interface is something no sane person would ever design, with basics like a build queue (if you call call something that can hold only 3 items that) buried 4 steps inside. It's also full of sliders that you have only a vague idea of what they actually do as they are never explained in any detail, and the game loves to move them around when you are not looking if you leave the AI "helper" on. Some of the controls I swear do nothing at all, like letting the AI auto colonies planets or not - it still happens even with it off. The whole thing feels like it was designed to make any micromanagement as painful as possible, so you just sit your ass back, keep pressing that end turn button and let the game play itself. And even with the latest fan patch I could find the game is still filled with unfinished half-baked features, place-holders, bugs and clumsy workarounds for more bugs. Oh, and as a cherry on top the wonderful turn based space combat is gone, replaced with this real-time abomination that offers next to no control over your ships. Who the fuck thought this was a good idea?!

    But even this, as bad as it sounds, is not what prompted me to write this hate letter to MoO3. No, that was playing MoO3 back-to-back to MoO2, and realizing just how bad they also dropped the ball when it comes to sounds and visuals of the game. There's no other way to say it - this game is ugly as sin. The wonderful atmospheric background music is replaced with this annoying background buzz with a thumping and an occasional gurgling sound that I guess is supposed to be music? And the beautiful drawn artwork is replaced with some of the ugliest 3d rendered images I ever had the misfortune to look upon. The image the game uses for humans in particular must have been used on a dare, or to prove that whoever was responsible for artwork direction hates the fans of the original games even more than whatever idiot designed the quote-unquote gameplay. There's just no other explanation on why it's in there. This game just fumbles the ball in every possible way. It is my firm belief that it is irremediably awful, not just in comparison to the first two games, but all on it's own as well. And also that anyone who had part in making this game should be rounded up and send to gulags for a couple of years, along with anyone recommending it at this point.

    Let this be a warning to anyone stupid enough to think of trying MoO3. Don't be an idiot like me, all that you will find there is suffering. Keep playing MoO2 and forget everything that came after it. Oh, and I'd like to thank the OP for making this thread to remind me to reinstall MoO2. As for those that would defend MoO3 - get on that fucking train for Siberia already.
     
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  20. Malakal Arcane

    Malakal
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    MoO3 did a few things right. Race design is awesome and way ahead of 2 and any game I played with both unique effects and different race groups offering 'chassis'. Want to play gas giant dwellers thats a basic chassis, fish, lizards, humanoids etc. Great stuff.

    Then the scale is great. It feels like you are really competing for galactic dominance, with hundreds of colonies and ships. Things you can do in the galaxy are great too, terraforming planets (and your races have their own, different preferred types), making new ones.

    Finally some good words to be said about galactic senate, division into senate and non senate races, the edicts that can be adopted.

    Unfortunately it indeed is a mess of UI, micromanagement and taxes on three separate levels (planetary, system, empire wide) plus you can inject money investment into colonies... Fun stuff if you are autistic eco nerd maybe.

    So yea, MoO2 plays better, is simpler and endearing. But I just darn wish MoO3 worked too. Such a shame...
     
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  21. octavius Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

    octavius
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    I never gave MoO2 much a chance, myself. I love MoO1, but MoO2 didn't grab me.

    It's how the Chinese would do it.
    A bit like in Cordwainer Smith's short story "When the People Fell".
     
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  22. Nutria Arcane Patron

    Nutria
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    In the original extremely overly-ambitious plans for the game, the main theme was supposed to be the limits of your ability to micromanage. You would be allowed to take a certain number of actions each turn to push your empire in the direction you wanted, but for the most part it would run itself. So you had to choose wisely where you wanted to intervene.

    This is one of many ideas that were dropped when they decided to give up and release the game half-finished. I doubt it would have worked anyway. You would need really good AI or else the player is just going to get frustrated when they see their empire doing stupid shit and they can't stop it. And nobody has ever made really good AI for a 4X game.
     
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  23. Malakal Arcane

    Malakal
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    Man that sounds great, you could have empires of ten thousand star systems fighting each other in a small (100k or so) stars galaxy. I knew the game was unfinished but nice to know where they were going with it.

    And the AI plays alright, one of the many complaints about MoO3 was the game basically plays by itself.
     
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  24. Norfleet Moderator

    Norfleet
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    If you get the quantum detonator, give it to all of the AIs. For free, if they won't buy it.

    What happens is that they will equip that stupid thing on every ship they can, and the resulting chain explosions will be GLORIOUS. In cases where the AI has failed to develop meaningful hull armor, I've seen cases where an entire 300-ship fleet goes up in a massive chain explosion after blowing up just 2 or 3.

    This one's not really a huge deal: The Death Ray has an absolutely HORRIBLE space-to-damage ratio, and the AI equipping it on their ships will effectively gimp their builds forever.

    In fact, owning this tech effectively cripples all of your starbases forever because of it.
     
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  25. Galdred Studio Draconis Patron Developer

    Galdred
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    I really liked the way they grouped ships into task forces, with pickets, escort (?) and capital ships.
    But I think handing micromanagement to the AI was misguided. It is much more efficient to abstract the things you don't want the player to five into.
    Btw, didn't Distant worlds try something similar? Does it work?
     
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