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KickStarter Monomyth - A first person action RPG/dungeon crawler

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by RatTower, May 7, 2017.

  1. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Dude we had this argument before.
    This is a videogame, which means realism does not correlate with good game design and fun gameplay.
    Doom and Ninja Gaiden are very silly unrealistic games but they have infinitely better combat than "realistic" stuff like Battlefield and Kingdom Come.

    As from a gameplay perspective. Shields are an inherently passive tool, they're never going to have the same versatility a weapon can have. So it's best function is for the players to use it as a way to appropriately manage threats, and there's alot of ways to challenge that function (specially this being an rpg and all): stamina, poise, attacks with guard break properties, spells, enemy groups (or nimble enemy types), AoE moves, shield durability, etc...

    Ehhh... Dark Messiah has action combat as far as I know.
    Aside from that, what's the problem with action combat?
     
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  2. V_K Arcane

    V_K
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    I meant Dungeon Master.

    For me personally? I'm shit at it and don't enjoy it. Non-action RT combat doesn't require as much reflexes and is over faster.
    There's also a point to be made how action combat is contrary to RPG principles because player skills yadda yadda, but I'll let someone else make it.
     
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  3. luj1 You're all shills

    luj1
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    Morrowind is a worthy ideal, that alleviates my concerns a little.
     
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  4. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    It's not an argument, you just like games with terrible, juvenile combat systems that aside from being unrealistic, are not fun for most mature people, and are the reason why V_K thinks he doens't like action combat. Games where you spin through the air like a retard in an arcade cartoon, and the gameplay is about twitch reflexes more than anything.

    I, on the other hand, have always claimed that a good mature action combat (like KCD for example) doesn't have to be so twitch oriented, it's fairly cerebral. You have to respond in a timely manner, but that's different from having to hit 5 keys in .5 seconds while spinning 3 ways. The system is more about the technique, understanding moves, defenses, combos, etc. That's what any aRPG should aim for.
     
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  5. V_K Arcane

    V_K
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    Yeah, no.
     
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  6. Bad Sector Arcane Patron

    Bad Sector
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    Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex
    Fun fact, the first TES (Arena) and most likely the second too (Daggerfall, though i have played that very little so i'm not 100% sure) allows warriors to simply bash doors by hitting them repeatedly until either the door or the weapon breaks. Too bad this was removed in Morrowind.

    FWIW i feel this was tacked on in Morrowind because they ran out of time or whatever because the only thing that "severed thread" really stops is the flow of information about what to do next. Things aren't really that hardcoded nor tied together that tightly, so i guess the only reason the thread thing exists is that they didn't had time to add alternative sources of information to keep the quest moving forward. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a mod out there that gets rid of the thread completely.
     
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  7. Zed Duke of Banville Zo Kath Ra Patron

    Zed Duke of Banville
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    Yes, Daggerfall also allowed the PC to bash doors open with weapons, except in cases of magical locking.

    The message about having "severed the thread of prophecy" exists in Morrowind as friendly warning to a player who inadvertently kills someone necessary for the progression of the main quest line (intended to appear if an NPC dies before their use in the main quest is finished, although the game's essential flag is too simple to differentiate). The developers did add a backdoor route allowing the player to bypass most of the main quest, via killing Vivec to obtain Wraithguard and then gaining additional information from Yagrun Bagarn the Last Living Dwarf, but they didn't want to force an unwitting player into this route without fair warning, though I suppose they could have reworded the "severed thread" message to hint that a path to stop Dagoth Ur still exists.
     
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  8. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    That does apply to all sub-genres of RPG's except the ARPG's, where the character skill should ideally be of equal influence as the player skill.

    [​IMG]

    So Doom is bad because it's juvenile and unrealistic. So I guess modern military shooters are the true patricians choice when it comes to shooters. :lol:
    Also bitch please, we're talking about videogames here, "mature" doesn't got shit do with any of it, specially when talking about game design.

    I am going to repeat myself. Realism = Good, is a fallacy.
    This is true even to other mediums such as books, film (traditional narractive structuring and characterization beats realism every time).
    Videogames aren't an imitation of reality, they are an exageration.

    You're showing how ignorant you are in this matter by saying that pure action games are mainly about twitch reflexes.
    Saying devs of these games have put more cohesive thought in some of the bosses, than the devs of KCD put behind their combat system, wouldn't be far from the truth.
    Mastery in these games doesn't come by pressing buttons really fast. In fact mindlessly spaming shit means the player isn't using their abilities in a effective manner, which doesn't get you far in any difficulty above normal (i.e. the training wheels difficulty). Mastery in these games, only comes by a full understanding of the game's systems, the tools it provides you with and the challenges you have to face with, all of which have a purpose. Only them do the fast inputs help you and admittedly give you a satisfying adreneline rush.
    Because of their extremely focused design, their mechanics ended up becoming insanely tight, solid and polished. Nothing about them is superfluous, questionable or contradictory to the intended experience.
    This is why even decades later, people still play Doom, still make combo videos, still hold competive tournaments for figthing games.

    In that regard they are similiar to games like the first 4 Wizardry's, where the dungeon is the entire focus of the game and everything else is just there to complement it (only in these cases, the combat is the focus).

    I won't go over why KCD combat is anything above mediocre, that would be far to long a post and this is not the place for that kind autistic analysis.
    But I'll say that in end, since KCD is an RPG after all, the combat is just one part of a greater whole and not the focus of the experience. So it's obvious that whatever system they would've done, would never be as good as pure action games. That's why I don't usually bring it up on discussions regarding the game. It's a bit unfair to rip on it too much not to mention unproductive, since there's other more important aspects the game didn't quite get rigth.

    Same here with Monomyth.
    Even if RatTower doesn't make anything beyond functional or decent, that's totally fine since it's not what the experience is about and there's many more pressing aspects to get rigth.
     
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  9. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    Why don't you link that video you linked before of some twitch game you liked? With the guy spinning like a turbo-top in the air, spamming some crappy attack and using reflexes to twitch rhythm dance around his opponents. Drink some more ritalin and pretend like there's anything there beyond spamming and twitch reflexes. I will stick with games like Dark Souls, KCD, Sekiro, and BotW.
     
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  10. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Maybe read the post first dumbass.
    Those guys can do those whacky shit because they have an excellent understanding of the game's workings, not because "twich skills".
    Any game can be "fast-paced" and even a nutless monkey can develop "twich skills". But not every game has a set of gameplay mechanics so powerful that the skill ceiling is virtually infinite.
    Whatever you like more or not is irrelevant, but the truth still remains that KDC and Dark Souls combat system is nothing special or that good. But again in the end it doesn't matter because it's not the point of those games

    Also lol at your whole "muh spamming and twich rhythm games" logic despite the fact you play Sekiro and think it's good :lol::lol::lol:
     
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  11. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

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    You seem upset.

    Even if we put aside the obvious fact that your preferred combat systems look like absolute juvenile shit (the same way that movies look retarded once people start spinning around in the air, like in Crouching Tiger or Comic Book movies), you keep ignoring the equally obvious fact that there is no room for most normal people for technique in your horrible games for the simple reason that everything happens too fast. Enemies attack so fast, that you have to respond in tiny fractions of a second, which for most people (i.e. older than 25, with average or worse reflexes, etc) is impossible, so they are left with either spamming or something equally cheesy, or just not playing a shit game like that. So whatever technique you claim is there is absolutely irrelevant for most people, whether or not it actually exists.

    Games like KCD, Dark Souls, Sekiro, on the other hand, are deliberate enough that a regular person can play them, and actually have the space to perform advanced techniques. I bet you don't even understand how combos work in KCD while trashing its combat.
     
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  12. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    Enough with this fucking autism already.
    If you want my take on why the systems of those games aren't good, then pm me in their respective threads.
    But this shit has gone for too long here.
     
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  13. V_K Arcane

    V_K
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    Wasn't there a video of a guy finishing Dark Souls without ever leveling once? I'd say that takes the balance a bit too far.
     
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  14. Harthwain Cipher

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    I used "sword'n'board" playstyle (well, spear'n'board, to be precise) in Dark Souls and I found it interesting in its own right, as opposed to parrying or dodging (the first was annoying to get right, the second was simply overpowered), because you had to invest in stamina and manage how you "spent" it (when to block and when to recover). I am saying this, because you seem to be very eager to try and evaluate what constitutes "good" or "cheap" or "boring" combat/builds when - in fact - it's all down to individual opinion and playstyle and that can hardly be easily disregarded or even argued (since "de gustibus non est disputandum").
     
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  15. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

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    Meh, to me it's pretty self-evident that the majority of people enjoy reactive combat as opposed to stamina management combat, but of course people will argue anything. To each their own...
     
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  16. Harthwain Cipher

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    You think stamina management ISN'T reactive? I don't know like you, but when one blocks he's being THE MOST reactive, because he makes the enemy commit to an action before finding an opening to make his own move (often right after making the block), whereas the non-blocker is trying to make his move by acting first, as he isn't focused on defense. Unless we understand the word "reactive combat" differently:

    Also, statements like "it's pretty self-evident that the majority of people enjoy reactive combat as opposed to stamina management combat" are purely a matter opinion and don't make for a good argument without actual numbers to support them.
     
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  17. DJOGamer PT Arcane

    DJOGamer PT
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    And that is an argument that can be used to justify the opinion that Dark Souls isn't really an RPG.
     
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  18. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

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    Well, 2 things:

    1. If you miss a timed parry/dodge, you get hit, and if the game is good/difficulty is right, you take a lot of damage. Stamina management is almost never that binary, you generally have a lot more leeway. If you spend too much stamina, you then have to spend less in the next few seconds to compensate, but it's not like you mess up one move and suddenly have no stamina. So stamina management is spread out more over time, and is not like the sharp, exact mechanic that timed parries/dodges are.

    2. Because with constant blocks, you can hold up the block whenever, they just lack the intense, visceral feel of tight reactive moves.

    So anything is reactive in a way, but in the context of aRPG combat, chess is not reactive the same way as basketball.
     
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  19. Harthwain Cipher

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    That depends on how much it costs to block an attack, how punishing it is to get your block broken (either via a combat move or lack of stamina), how fast it takes to regenerate your stamina and how fast you can move around (both when blocking and not blocking). So it's all down to values, not the mechanic as such.

    If it's feasible to hold up block forever (because either the enemy doesn't hit enough for you to care about managing your stamina levels or/and you don't lose stamina from holding block forever), then something isn't right. But that's - again - the question of balance/values, not the mechanic.

    First you claim that blocking isn't reactive. Now you're going Animal Farm and literally say: "Anything is reactive, but some actions are more reactive than others", and - to top it off - compare CHESS to basketball when it comes to discussing aRPG combat? WTaF?
     
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  20. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

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    You are just being pedantic now. Everything is everything, if you are autistic enough. Waiting for 5pm at work has reactive elements too. But you know exactly what I mean, so stop playing stupid.

    And there have been enough combat systems in RPGs with stamina management by now that we can say with certainty it is always a mechanic spread over time, never a tight, truly reactive mechanic.
     
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  21. Harthwain Cipher

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    Perhaps it's you who should stop being disingenuous and simply admit you have made a mistake (which is a natural thing to do. After all errare humanum est), but I guess that's not happening. Yet you dare to say I am "playing stupid"? Perhaps it's you who is not just playing stupid, but actually are?

    Is that a royal "we" I see in there? Or are you falling back to the level of "pretty self-evident" claims about "the majority of people" talk with nothing to back it all up? Because that's exactly the same kind of argument you're trying to pull off here. I've already proven that stamina management through blocking is a reactive mechanic. So now, that your original statement about stamina management not being reactive mechanic has fallen, you are trying to use graduation to say it's not "truly reactive mechanic"? That's called sophistry (and proves you're being disingenuous).

    Shame on you.
     
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  22. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

    PorkyThePaladin
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    You know what they say about arguing with an idiot... :)
     
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  23. Harthwain Cipher

    Harthwain
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    There is also a saying about yielding to the stupid that is rounded out with the words: "...and that's why the world looks like it does".

    Which is why I don't really mind correcting an idiot.
     
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  24. PorkyThePaladin Arcane

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    You do you, gf...
     
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  25. SophosTheWise Arbiter

    SophosTheWise
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    Please stop this shit, I get a notification every time and I don't give a shit about your petty fights, I just wanna follow this game
     
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