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My collected criticism on Pillars of Eternity (very minor spoilers)

Pillars of Eternity is


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    372

dieu

Learned
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Aug 14, 2013
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54
(All this of course evaporates if you do the side content because you'll be wildly overleveled in no time, and crit path level scaling got shouted down at the outset. Kind of amusing that considering Josh's "balance" fetish. I hope they'll fix that; all you'd need to do is adjust the XP tables for leveling up so it's not like it would be hard.)

I'd love to see this. It was a shame to hit max level with the whole of the endless paths, a few big quests and 45k bounty XP still to go, and I stupidly did Dyrford Village content as late as possible, making it a cakewalk on Hard. Roleplaying content was still nice though. I'm heading straight there now on PotD but that will probably just trivialise Defiance Bay instead.

To put this into context: for those who've played BG1 without TotSC, when did you hit the level cap? Was there enough item progression to make up for it afterwards?
 

ZagorTeNej

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Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
Thanks to Sensuki and some other grogs, I finally learned both how to play and how to enjoy the IE games over the past couple of years. I've been playing and replaying BG2 to the point that I find myself un-ironically going "Pfft, Firkraag is easy, I just beat him in five rounds with two toons."

Dunno, I'm not finding it easier than BG2 until you overlevel past the challenge. With BG2 the main challenge before you know where everything is, is finding level-appropriate content (or, once you know where it is, setting yourself a challenge of, say, murdering Firkraag or doing the beholder cult quest first thing).

So you got advice/help from people who ran over the game numerous times over the years, you played it/replayed it and have metagame knowledge of what game's best gear is and where it's located and you finally found the game easy, well no shit.

You realize how vastly diffierent that is to finding 90% of the game way easy the very fist you play the game (on Hard), while completely new to game systems/classes/anything? Now of course this is a non-level scaling semi-open RPG so experience can vary wildly depending on party composition, what you did first etc. but those two situations are still in no way comparable.

But. I'm really, really digging the combat anyway. I think the classes have incredibly cool synergies and the blow-by-blow gameplay is arguably more tactical than in BG2.

That's the problem, I'm not finding it tactical when I used exactly same tactics for half of the game regardless of whether I faced a trash mob or a hand-placed encounter. I'm honestly not saying this to be edgy but even though I beat BG1 numerous times If I played it now I'd still put more thought into say Sarevok Acolytes encounter (even with a party that reached level cap and has all best gear) than anything I did for the last 15-20 hours of PoE (save for incredibly cheesy and buggy Adra Dragon), it was a like a video stuck on loop.
 

Delterius

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Spells aren't interesting

There's a reason why Charm outstands: it's one of the only spells effects that will force you to change your tactics. While IE games used powerful spells and hard-counter - i.e., Web ties you to the ground, unless you have a Free Action spell;/item -, PoE opts for weaker spells with only soft-counters. So now Web now only partially reduces movement, and there's no way to dispel it or safe-guard against it. Since there's nothing you can do and your warrior can walk anyway, you just ignore the spell.

And that's, sadly how most of them go. Thus, fighting enemy wizards makes little difference - their spells don't alter the tactics of any battle, you just soldier on through their effects. The big exception, of course, is Charm (or Confusion), which take control over one character away from you, forcing a change of tactics on the fly.

Another good example that displays the shallowness of the spell system is the Petrify spell. In the IE game they would instantly kill a character, but you could be 100% protected by some spells & items and, if worse came to pass, you could always buy a scroll of Stone to Flesh and save your character. In other RPGs petrify is a double edged blade, that stuns a character but also raise its defense. In WoW, for example, there are potions that allow you to briefly petrify yourself, to raise your defense and endure a powerful blast.

How does PoE handles Petrify? Worst of both worlds: there are no hard counters against it, it fully stuns the target AND it makes it take 4x the damage directly to his health. And it's an AoE spell, that lasts 20 seconds. Basically, a "I WIN" spell, with no nuance or downside. You can one-shot even boss battles with it.

There are also spells that could be cool in a very elaborate and complex system, but are simply useless here. Minor Grimoire Imprint is a Lv 4 spell that allows you to steal a random Lv 1-3 spell from an enemy wizard and cast it for free. Why waste a 4th level spell to randomly cast a lower level spell?

As with many other things in PoE, I look at this spell and see that there was a spark of creativity, but it was never fully developed.
This is unfortunate. I always felt that the whole purpose of a strategic magic system (that is to say vancian magic) was that spells could become individually powerful and interesting. If all a low level wizard can only cast a single spell, then that Sleep, Blindness or Charm might as well be game changing. That was always my favorite part of the IE games. Casting a fireball or a web spell is much more interesting than spamming coloured missiles over and over again. If the way PoE handles spellcasting in the early game is, as you said, representative of the whole picture... I'd bring the dreaded hard counters back in a heartbeat.

I'm holding out hope that PoE2 becomes analogous to BG2 in terms of content, but much of what guides the rules system seems like a poisonous strain that will inevitably cap my enjoyment of the games.[/quote][/quote]
 

jagged-jimmy

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Felipepepe nailed it. And VD should stop giving every RPG a bonus in his reviews. WTH happened. Wasteland 2 had serious system issues - awesome game 10/10. PoE lacks fun stuff and is underdeveloped in some areas - 10/10 better then BG2. And this is laughable. It's nowhere near the BG2, the comparison is even totally unfair.

The wording is just poor, a bit trollish. PoE is not a better "game". PoE indeed has better role-playing mechanics. Factions, stat checks in dialogues, skill checks in text adventures. But they all are underdeveloped. Factions do not matter, stat checks lead to no truly memorable quest experience, etc.
 

hell bovine

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This is unfortunate. I always felt that the whole purpose of a strategic magic system (that is to say vancian magic) was that spells could become individually powerful and interesting. If all a low level wizard can only cast a single spell, then that Sleep, Blindness or Charm might as well be game changing. That was always my favorite part of the IE games. Casting a fireball or a web spell is much more interesting than spamming coloured missiles over and over again. If the way PoE handles spellcasting in the early game is, as you said, representative of the whole picture... I'd bring the dreaded hard counters back in a heartbeat.

I'm holding out hope that PoE2 becomes analogous to BG2 in terms of content, but much of what guides the rules system seems like a poisonous strain that will inevitably cap my enjoyment of the games.
Low level spells could be fun too (SCS really spices up BG1 battles), but the way there are implemented currently most choices seem between useless, overpowered, bugged or both. Charm for example turns my NPCs hostile, but then they just stand there doing nothing. I have no idea if it's a bug or a feature of this spell.

And the encounter design is certainly below BG2 level. I am currently finishing with the Gilded Vale village (and side areas) and up to this point I've seen no real effort behind neither the placement of enemies, nor the story or quest design. It's just random groups of hostile fauna, bandits or mushrooms who conveniently inhabit a nearby cave when you need them. Gone are the "gather all the golden bones for a lovely surprise" quests, it seems. That was what made exploration in BG2 fun; the game didn't cater to your character level, so checking behind that locked door was risky but could potentially bring great rewards. In PoE there is little incentive to explore, which is not helped by the wtf-is-going-on combat. At this point I've just given everyone crossbows, and have them hide behind my chanter, with the occasional slapping of withdraw on the wimpy elf mage.
 

DeepOcean

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Guys, I have a great idea Obsidian ever had on their games. A really cool idea about crafting they never tought about. How about you doing pretty sick shit allowing some fun crafting opportunities? I mean, a game where you can mold souls and you being a Watcher and all... imagine that, you commit treason to all your companions and use their souls to make a super powerful medallion born out of treason? Nah... Obsidian never thought on something cool like that before right?

PoE crafting feels like "Baby's my first RPG". When a crafting system is just "let's add stuff to items that I should find instead.", it's pretty much pointless. I mean, for a game about souls, you don't having big opportunities for the most of the game to mess with said souls is a big let down, isnt it?

Another thing, people comparing this game with BG 1 and BG 2. When I was commiting genocide against trash mobs and almost sleeping on my chair, it didn't make it more fun to know that BG 1 had trash encounters too. Niggas please, this is "Baby's first RPG game.", it was fun and I don't regret supporting Obsidian, it was that or having to deal with Bioware diarrhea but its obvious this game wasn't made for people with some experience with Infinite Engine RPGs and the criticisms are totally valid.
 
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Haba

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Codex 2012 MCA Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
I like the fact that I can make an early game item last me through the game. But more truly unique game-changing items (and hidden powerful enchantments) would have been more than welcome. As it is, nothing is really memorable. But that seems to be core design for PoE: file out all the sharp edges and make sure nobody gets offended.
 

felipepepe

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Guys, I have a great idea Obsidian ever had on their games. A really cool idea about crafting they never tought about. How about you doing pretty sick shit allowing some fun crafting opportunities? I mean, a game where you can mold souls and you being a Watcher and all... imagine that, you commit treason to all your companions and use their souls to make a super powerful medallion born out of treason? Nah... Obsidian never thought on something cool like that before right?
The sad thing is that in PoE there's a secret enchantment that allows you to use a fragment of your soul to create a unique item. But it's a shitty enchantment:

mewDUpJ.jpg


Just like the Blade of the Endless Paths it comes with that "+10 Accuracy to Ally" enchantment. WHO THE HELL thought that this was a bad-ass power that sh0uld be present in legendary weapons? FFS!
 

Athelas

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Well, considering 'select all -> attack same target' is the most predominant tactic in the game, that's actually one of the most useful buffs you could have.

:negative:
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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Felipepepe nailed it. And VD should stop giving every RPG a bonus in his reviews.
I don't have much time lately, so I review games I like (which is why I didn't review Skyrim, DA:I, Blackguards 2, or even D:OS).

WTH happened. Wasteland 2 had serious system issues - awesome game 10/10.
From the WL2 review:

If Fallout was about exploring the ethics of a post-apocalyptic world, Wasteland is all about having fun.
...
For instance, the main issue I have with it is that the skills are completely disconnected from the stats. The stats don’t determine the starting values of skills (which would have made the stats more useful), don’t give bonuses to skills and don’t play any role in non-combat activities. ... Another issue is that not all stats are created equally....
...
One of the issues I have with the game is random loot. Every time you open a trapped strongbox, a well-locked safe protected by a state-of-the-wasteland-art alarm system or dig out someone’s stash, invisible dice will be rolled, determining which pile of crap to reward you with this time. ... Basically, it’s a good example of a minor decision undermining the character system instead of strengthening it the way everything else does.
...
The combat system is fairly straightforward: attack until you run out of action points... Thus, your choices are limited to positioning and weapons.
...
Design-wise, the true power comes not from skills (they boost your accuracy and critical chance) but from better weapons and having enough hit points to match the ever-increasing damage coming your way.
...
The biggest problem is that the AI is often at odds with itself – enemies act as (suicidal) individuals rather than as a group. It cannot form cohesive strategies, like maintaining positions or targeting individuals, which means that the game needs to rely on increasingly larger numbers – more damage, more hit points, more enemies – instead of smarter strategies.
...
Unfortunately, the skill checks are fairly sporadic and stat checks are extremely rare.
...
Unfortunately, quite often, the quests feel like uncomplicated, post-apocalyptic versions of the TV show Cops. You're instructed to do something – save the AG Center, set up the radio, clean up the prison, save the L'eve Lupe Mines (nobody needed this pun FYI). ... In many cases, these well-worn formulas aren’t used in new or interesting ways, but merely occupy game space, giving you ‘stuff to do’. The contrast with truly exceptional areas couldn’t be starker.
...
Does it mean that you’re going to like it? It depends entirely on your expectations. If you expected a long overdue sequel or a game that allows you to chart your own course, I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised. If you expected a game like [Fallout / Jagged Alliance / ‘best game evar’], you might be disappointed.​

Yeah, 10/10, can't improve the perfection!

PoE lacks fun stuff and is underdeveloped in some areas - 10/10 better then BG2. And this is laughable.
Because BG2 is 9/10?

I've always called BG/BG2 action-adventure games and never really praised them.

The wording is just poor, a bit trollish. PoE is not a better "game". PoE indeed has better role-playing mechanics.
Which makes it a better role-playing game for me.
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,026
To cut short the discussion, and make a point, I leaves this here, draw your own conclusions:
Baldur's Gate 1998
Baldur's Gate II 2000
Pillars of Eternity 2015
 

Kz3r0

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
27,026
:balance:

Yeah I hate to add to a choir that is quite often made of ramblings, but Saywer's ideals have brought us a net loss, I fear.
He made a bland magic system with an hanful of spells broken as fuck, BALANCE!!!
And the next patch probably will just nerf them and nothing else.
 

Stompa

Arcane
Joined
Dec 3, 2013
Messages
531
The sad thing is that in PoE there's a secret enchantment that allows you to use a fragment of your soul to create a unique item. But it's a shitty enchantment:

mewDUpJ.jpg


Just like the Blade of the Endless Paths it comes with that "+10 Accuracy to Ally" enchantment. WHO THE HELL thought that this was a bad-ass power that sh0uld be present in legendary weapons? FFS!

That one has different enchantments depending on what you say to stone heads before that.
 

J_C

One Bit Studio
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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Reading VD's posts, this Codex review will be glorious. :bounce:

It needs those hundreds of tiny C&C details that most players will never see. It needs those secrets people will take years to uncover. It needs those optional paths like "Imma kill Gilbert Bates!" that only retards like me will try.
No, PoE doesn't need that at all to be a good RPG.

With the exception of PST, the other IE games have barely any meaningful C&C. Yes, they have hundreds of tiny C&C which ammount to nothing, so what? They need those secret which take years to uncover? Why? So a dozen uber-hardcore RPG players can uncover them, but 99% of players won't care about them?

I love the IE games to death, but it blows my mind that people think they are some tactical masterpieces, when it comes to combat. No, they are not at all. Being a RTwP games, they can never be. They have decent combat, which is fun. But PoE also has decent combat, which is also fun.

Also, whatever people say about Josh, PoE allows to build different types of character, compared to the IE, which only allowed to build basicly one type. Fighter types always go with high str/dex/con, thief with high dex, wizard with high int, and there was no reason to play any other.

There are a lot of annoying design decision in Poe which I don't like (group stealth, shit traps, some MMOesque skills), but I don't think it failed as an IE successor. Unless people wanted a carbon copy of D&D in PoE, which obviously it does not have.
 
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MTwolves

Educated
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Jan 8, 2015
Messages
32
WARNING: MAJOR SPOILERS in this post
This is going to be a long post. I really shouldn’t be spending this much time on it, but I just feel like there were some things that I wanted to say about the game.
Felipepepe wrote up a very good post so I am going to be repeating/citing/plagarizing some of his criticisms and adding my own thoughts on it.

Engine & Presentation

The game is beautiful and the soundtrack is solid. The 2x speed button is a great addition and having the secondary weapons appear on the back/waist showed an attention to detail.
The map backgrounds were gorgeous.
But the overall sense I got from the backer beta feedback and even after release is that maybe more art could have been put into the game, such as including more portraits or concept art.

Choice and Consequence

In Pillars, you have a lot of personality nuances, but it doesn’t really alter the endgame that much. You end up a bit of everything, get a few different dialog choices, and that’s it. That tends to make it difficult to replay it again, because there’s nothing necessarily game-changing.
Games like Arcanum and KOTOR allowed you to go to the very extremes. Pillars doesn’t seem to allow you to do that.
Races and classes could also be used a little bit more. I played as a Pale Elf, and I didn’t really get much of a response from my race at all. Contrast that to Arcanum, where there is a strong reaction to your appearance and race.

Enchantment & Itemization

I am going to quote felipepepe directly here:

“Oddly, the systems logic isn't bad per se; you can enchant weapons and armor with a few bonuses, while unique named items usually come with unique, more powerful enchantments. What's unexplainable is how the designers used the system.
For example, about 1 hour in you can recruit Éder as a companion, and he comes with a magical Saint's War Armor that once per battle will "revive" the wearer mid-combat if his endurance drops to 0. ****ing amazing, you can't add that to regular armors, so it's a very special and useful item you'll probably keep until end-game, with a few enchantments of your own on top.
But that's an exception. Éder's armor is one of the best & most unique items in the entire game, more often than not you'll just find uninspired magical items, very similar to the ones you can craft. There's no sense of progression here, at end-game I was finding unique items that were just like the ones I had purchased & enchanted myself, just with an extra ability like "Ignores 3 DR". Yes, it's a nice ability, but one would expect a bit more after 40 hours of play, especially in a game where you can sit down and craft a Spirit-Slaying Blade of Fire +3 at any moment.
The worst offender is by far the Blade of Endless Paths. You must find its fragments spread out through the huge 15-level dungeon to reforge it, just like in Baldur's Gate 2. But while in BG2 you would get legendary weapons such as the Flail of Ages, The Equalizer, Crom Faeyr, the Vorpal Blade, the Wave or the Short Bow of Gesen - all unique weapons with distinct powers - PoE gives you a boring Estoc that's 20% faster, gives +10 accuracy to one ally attacking the same target, and cannot be enchanted any further. WOW! Not only other unique weapons have these abilities, but you can buy any Estoc in a shop and enchant it into a more powerful blade if you have the proper ingredients.
On this subject, each item can be enchanted up to 12 "slots". Each enchantment use from 1 to 6 slots, so there's a limit to the enchantments you can add. But it makes little sense. The aforementioned ability to revive characters mid-combat occupies only one slot, while the inane "+10 accuracy for ally" takes two slots! Moreover, the whole system seems designed solely to stop players from adding the "Superb" enchantment to already powerful weapons, since it takes whopping 6 slots. And that's about all that the system does really, you'll rarely run into the cap otherwise. This could be such a rich system, if there were secret and powerful recipes to uncover so you could add exotic enchantments, or if it made you weight the "size" of each enchantment carefully, but it's horribly underused.
Apart from that, there's a serious lack of some types of magical items in the game. PoE overflows with magical cloaks and necklaces (both which use the same slot), but has very, very few magical belts, rings, helmets and hats. Two of my characters finished the game with regular, non-magical (but stylish) feathered hats, simply because there was nothing better for them to wear after 50 hours exploring.
You see, since there are no hard-counters, items can't give you "Free Action", "Protection from Charm" or anything like that. So they mostly give bonuses like +1 to Might, +3 to Deflection, etc. But these do not stack - you cannot have a +1 Might ring and a +2 Might helmet. As result, my PC finished the game wearing the prestigious CRPG ring, as all the other rings available had similar bonuses to the ones she already had and wouldn't have any effect.”


One thing I will say in praise of Pillars is that there does seem to be a wide variety of available weapons. There seemed to be a fair representation of clubs, swords, and wands.
The other criticism that I would add is that in order to craft superb items, you have to have a dragon component, which basically means that you have to fight the dragons. To my knowledge, the dragon components can’t be bought in stores.
Getting rid of the arrows and bullets was a good decision, because It was a pain in the neck to constantly replenish your ammunition. But the problem now is that you can’t really customize the ammunition. You can’t really choose between +1 or normal bullets or flame/lightning/ice arrows anymore.

Gameplay and Classes

The classes still need some polish. In my opinion, ciphers are overpowered and fighters don’t have a lot of active abilities. When I use Eder, I send him to engage enemies. He has a few knockdowns and a clear out. That’s it. Otherwise, he’s just hacking away at the enemies.
Regarding the wizard class, I never switched grimoires with Aloth. He used the same 4 spells that I found the most useful over and over again.

BTW, as a side note, it would be amazing if someone could mod the chants so that you could actually play your own music or audio for the chants.

One really minor thing is character introductions. Eder is just hanging out in front of the gallows tree. Sagani is just waiting by the crossroads. Durance is standing by the statue. Kana is just chilling in front of the stronghold. Not terribly memorable.

Books aren’t really used for anything except background. You can’t increase your skills or attributes if you find them. The one use they really had was when you were praying to the gods. Other than that, they didn’t reveal any hidden recipes or secrets or schematics.

The attributes system didn’t really feel any different from the Baldur’s Gate series. One of the oft talked about points of the game was the idea of a “muscle wizard’. The problem is that it doesn’t seem to work in practice. On top of that, there doesn’t seem to be much of a difference with the attributes and the standard SCDIWC. I mean, resolve is literally charisma. If you look through the dialogue options, it’s exactly that.

Some of the battles in the game don’t feel satisfying. When the player fought against and defeated Firkraag in Baldur’s Gate 2, they got an Holy Avenger out of it. When I was looting the Adra Dragon’s horde, I didn’t really find any useful weapons or items. The battle also didn’t feel very satisfying because I felt like I had to cheese my way to victory. I used tons of Scrolls of Paralysis and set up Seals to defeat the dragon. There wasn’t the same sense of satisfaction.

There’s got a better way to sell excess items in my Stash. By the time I finished the game, I had about 3 pages full of weapons that I would never need or use. Isn’t there a way to select all or sell off a group of armor?

The scripted interactions didn’t feel very original. As long as you had a hammer and chisel, grappling hook, and prybar, you could pretty much successfully complete most of the scripted interactions. It didn’t feel like there was a random element outside of those tools. I think there were a very checks on Athletics, but that was it.

Mechanics is completely overrepresented in the game. You use it to detect traps, hidden switches, and unlock the doors. The other skills just aren’t as useful.

I feel like you level up way too fast in the game. The bounties, unlocking doors, defeating enemies, disarming traps, and finishing quests all add up too fast. And when the level cap gets hit, there isn’t any additional improvement that can be made on the existing characters.

The Stronghold isn’t very satisfying either.

· There’s really little to no payoff, other than the Warden building, for upgrading the keep. You don’t really get a bonus for completely upgrading the keep.
· The bandits can tear down your walls. So why build walls at all if it’s a money drain?
· The dungeon is built in such a way that you can’t really prevent prisoners from escaping. You only have the option of releasing them. You can’t execute any prisoners.
· The adventures are guaranteed victories. You just send off one of your hirelings, wait a few days, and get money or experience back.
· Resting in the keep feels more inconvenient than resting in one of the local inns because you only get bonuses in one attribute, and it only raises the attribute by +1, when you can pay for +2 increases in inns for a nominal fee. You also have to trek all the way to Brighthollow and then go up the stairs to sleep. It’s an inefficient use of time.
· You don’t really get a discount from the merchants at the keep and they don’t really offer many unique items. You can get discounts from merchants elsewhere because you can have a good reputation in places like Gilded Vale and Defiance Bay.
· There’s not a lot of interactivity with the upgrades. You can’t go into the maze. There’s really nothing special about the buildings that you can’t get already from the merchants in other places.

The reputation system is OK in the game. But I wish I could have collected certain titles and reputations like you could get in Arcanum, like “The Butcher of Stillwater”, etc. I can easily think of a few off the top of head like, “Exorcist” for clearing the lighthouse or “Master Detective” for solving the murder mysteries or “Headhunter” for completing all of the bounties. Sort of like the Steam achievements, but in game.

Story

The story is the strength of the game. The only thing that bothered was in the end, when after you had this long conversation with Iovara about the gods being constructed by the Engwithans, and finally beaten Theos to a bloody pulp, and you end up in front of the Engwithan soul container, and you end up having to choose from the choices that the different gods. You don’t have an option to really go against what the gods want.
There was this long discussion with Iovara and Theos about whether or not the gods existed and whether or not people should have a right to know, and then your final choice ends up choosing between what the gods want. It's almost an admission or concession that you, the player, don't really have much control, because while the choices that you make are yours, they're also the choices that the gods want you to make.
Even trying to break the pantheon, by serving Woedica, is actually helping a god.
What I am trying to say is that even with the knowledge that the gods don't really exist, you are still somehow bound by the gods' rules. I wish that Obsidian could have put in an option where you could have made a choice like Iovara's.
 
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Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
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Messages
28,039
There's also the matter of your co-reviewer's butt...
The sneak preview quote that caused all that rectal bleeding was approved by my esteemed co-reviewer. We're exchanging notes on a daily basis, so in general we're in agreement.

The only thing we disagree on is whether or not it's better than BG2, which isn't a very important issue.
 

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