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My collected criticism on Pillars of Eternity (very minor spoilers)

Pillars of Eternity is


  • Total voters
    371

SoupNazi

Guest
Agree with pretty much everything you said. The points you mentioned were my biggest gripes, too - encounter design and C&C/replayability.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
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BG fucking sucked. Still does.

i'm happy this game is giving you nostalgia for that game that fucking sucked then
It sucked because it was linear, didn't have many choices, and role-playing revolved around "I'm good and will help you! - I don't give a shit but I'll help you! - I'll help you and then I'll kill you!".

PoE has better story, better lore, better companions, better choices, multiple solutions, better dungeons and better dungeon's design.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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I agree with most of your points but I think that PoE is far superior to BG and is good or better than BG2.

Wow, wow, wow. when did we arrive here? Just yesterday you said "I agree completely" to "while this is a success as a successor the IE-games, it does not compete with Baldur's Gate 2 in terms of world diversity and adventure or Planescape: Torment in terms of writing."

I see PoE as BG with better role-playing. So while BG2 had more cool shit (items, mage duels, etc), when it comes to role-playing PoE beats it easily. The end.

Dogs and cats. Better for you. BG2 is clearly the better game, even if PoE does one aspect (that YOU like a lot) better than it.

And to think I thought we agreed pretty much about everything.

"BG fucking sucked" <---- pfffffft

The problem with your line of thinking, VD, is that it is so obviously based on a "what is an RPG"-retardo discussion that ends in "What I like about RPGs is what RPGs are all about." Meanwhile, what the fuck does Wizardry 8 or Knights of the Chalice have that you want? Nothing. Might mean they're not RPGs for you, but to call them worse RPGs because they don't allow you to pick a multitude of dialogue options is fucking stupid, bro.
 
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Brayko

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It's pretty sad how it takes something that tries to copy something else to make the original something look "good". Everyone voted during pre-production that they wanted a Baldur's Gate, and lo and behold it turns out to be a lackluster programmed wellspring from Baldur's Gate with walls of text in every NPC. Now take ToEE, a somewhat broken game with loads of potential, I think that a dedicated team of programmers and designers working to resolve the issues there could have produced far better results but people don't look at it that way they shout "ToEE sucked no fond memoriess gimme a copy of a copy of Baldur's Gate more refined wanna relive the magic" and then complain when it doesn't live up to their expectations. Now those that love the game and truly think it's a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate and are deeply satisfied than kudos to you, play it love it and have fun. To everyone else, serves you right, you can't have your cake and eat it to.
 

Ellef

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Better dungeon design as in..pretty lights and shit? Because I'm struggling to think of many dungeons where you don't just walk from point A to B mowing down packs of random enemies. No secret doors, alternate routes, anything. No groups of enemies call for alarms, or talk to you in any manner.

There's more variety on the first floor of watcher's keep than the whole of POE :?
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Sensuki: I do think that PoE is a great game though, and clearly superior to BG1, so be careful what you brofist :M

Better dungeon design as in..pretty lights and shit? Because I'm struggling to think of many dungeons where you don't just walk from point A to B mowing down packs of random enemies. No secret doors, alternate routes, anything. No groups of enemies call for alarms, or talk to you in any manner.

I'd say they have comparable design. BG1 has Durlag's which is better than Od Nua, PoE has Skaen Cultist Temple which is better than p. much anything in BG1, really. PoE has Raedric's Hold while BG has the Ice Island.
 

felipepepe

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PoE has better story, better lore, better companions, better choices, multiple solutions, better dungeons and better dungeon's design.
yO5MW9y.jpg


C'mon VD, role-playing I'll take, but dungeons?
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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PoE has better story, better lore, better companions, better choices, multiple solutions, better dungeons and better dungeon's design.
yO5MW9y.jpg


C'mon VD, role-playing I'll take, but dungeons?

C'mon felipe, they are pretty comparable.

You are way too lenient towards the IE-games and way too critical of PoE in your OP. It's rose tinted glasses and hardcore critical analysis that makes your comparison end the way it does.
 

Ellef

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Sensuki: I do think that PoE is a great game though, and clearly superior to BG1, so be careful what you brofist :M

Better dungeon design as in..pretty lights and shit? Because I'm struggling to think of many dungeons where you don't just walk from point A to B mowing down packs of random enemies. No secret doors, alternate routes, anything. No groups of enemies call for alarms, or talk to you in any manner.

I'd say the have comparable design. BG1 has Durlag's which is better than Od Nua, PoE has Skaen Cultist Temple which is better than p. much anything in BG1, really. PoE has Raedric's Hold while BG has the Ice Island.

Mainly thinking of BG2 tbh, especially with the claim of poe dungeon design > bg2
 

Shadenuat

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Better writing and roleplaying than BG, and better combat than PST.

:happytrollboy:

C'mon felipe, they are pretty comparable.
Watcher's Keep and even Durlag's tower beat PoE with a stick, kick in the groin and send flying from the wall of southern barbican Watcher built for 1200 coppers.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Do elaborate.

I already did:

The problem with your line of thinking, VD, is that it is so obviously based on a "what is an RPG"-retardo discussion that ends in "What I like about RPGs is what RPGs are all about." Meanwhile, what the fuck does Wizardry 8 or Knights of the Chalice have that you want? Nothing. Might mean they're not RPGs for you, but to call them worse RPGs because they don't allow you to pick a multitude of dialogue options is fucking stupid, bro.

How does "it has sweeter dialogue options!" automatically outshine better itemization, better locations, better fights, more intricate encounters (mage duels), better main story line, and way, way, waaaaaaaaaaay more cool stuff to discover and find?

I get it. You like your C&C in RPGs. Hence you are able to excuse the shitty fucking combat in Fallout. I love customization and adventure, thus I'm able to excuse the basic dialogue of Baldur's Gate.
 

Grunker

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Watcher's Keep and even Durlag's tower beat PoE with a stick, kick in the groin and send flying from the wall of southern barbican Watcher built for 1200 coppers.

Did you even fucking read what I wrote before you went on autopilot? Watcher's Keep beats PoE easily (which is why I said it doesn't compete with BG2) and as for Durlag's, I wrote it in my fucking post, so you're either blind or angry:

Grunker said:
BG1 has Durlag's which is better than Od Nua, PoE has Skaen Cultist Temple which is better than p. much anything in BG1, really. PoE has Raedric's Hold while BG has the Ice Island.

Of course the two each have their best and worst dungeons, but overall, they are comparable. Like I fucking said however, BG2 obviously has both beat.
 

Shadenuat

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Watcher's Keep and even Durlag's tower beat PoE with a stick, kick in the groin and send flying from the wall of southern barbican Watcher built for 1200 coppers.

Did you even fucking read what I wrote before you went on autopiloy? Watcher's Keep beats PoE easily (which is why I said it doesn't compete with BG2) and as for Durlag's, I wrote it in my fucking post, so you're either blind or angry:

Grunker said:
BG1 has Durlag's which is better than Od Nua, PoE has Skaen Cultist Temple which is better than p. much anything in BG1, really. PoE has Raedric's Hold while BG has the Ice Island.
You edited.

you're either blind or angry
No I'm actually fairly amused. If VD is going to write and official Codex review I'll

er I don't think I can do anything, but maybe get an IE fanboy/vatnik multiclass tag or something :lol:
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Sensuki: I do think that PoE is a great game though, and clearly superior to BG1, so be careful what you brofist :M

There's no point denying that it does beat BG1 in many areas. It still falls down in exploration and I'm really over the combat at the moment.

I'd say they have comparable design. BG1 has Durlag's which is better than Od Nua, PoE has Skaen Cultist Temple which is better than p. much anything in BG1, really. PoE has Raedric's Hold while BG has the Ice Island.

I hated the Skaen Temple. It was quite literally copy paste the same encounter 15 times, with maybe some slightly different unit positions - groups of Fighters, Rogues, Ciphers, Wizards and Priests that use the same abilities. The loot was fucking shit as well, there was one item in the whole dungeon worth grabbing, and it was in some random chest in the middle.

TBH I think the dungeon would have been better off just being like the cultist room in Ulgoth's Beard - just a passageway to one room. The whole dungeon with guys in it was fucking pointless. Pretty much every other dungeon in the IE games kicks the shit out of the Skaen Temple.
 

ZagorTeNej

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I'd say they have comparable design. BG1 has Durlag's which is better than Od Nua, PoE has Skaen Cultist Temple which is better than p. much anything in BG1, really. PoE has Raedric's Hold while BG has the Ice Island.

Eh, what is actually so good about Skaen Cultist Temple? It's copypasted same groups of enemies over the whole map culminating with a boss fight that is also the same group with slightly better gear. You are talking about the one in that BB location, right?
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Watcher's Keep and even Durlag's tower beat PoE with a stick, kick in the groin and send flying from the wall of southern barbican Watcher built for 1200 coppers.

Did you even fucking read what I wrote before you went on autopiloy? Watcher's Keep beats PoE easily (which is why I said it doesn't compete with BG2) and as for Durlag's, I wrote it in my fucking post, so you're either blind or angry:

Grunker said:
BG1 has Durlag's which is better than Od Nua, PoE has Skaen Cultist Temple which is better than p. much anything in BG1, really. PoE has Raedric's Hold while BG has the Ice Island.
You edited.

Even if I pressed "Post Reply" like a second too soon and then edited it in quickly, the first post never said BG2 was superior. That was in my very first post before any edits.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
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Messages
28,024
PoE has better story, better lore, better companions, better choices, multiple solutions, better dungeons and better dungeon's design.
yO5MW9y.jpg


C'mon VD, role-playing I'll take, but dungeons?
There are plenty of alternative routes, which is 'good design'.

Watcher's Keep and even Durlag's tower beat PoE with a stick, kick in the groin and send flying from the wall of southern barbican Watcher built for 1200 coppers.
So you're saying that expansion packs focused on a single dungeon did dungeons better than a full game that had to deliver everything? You don't say.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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Sensuki: I do think that PoE is a great game though, and clearly superior to BG1, so be careful what you brofist :M

There's no point denying that it does beat BG1 in many areas. It still falls down in exploration and I'm really over the combat at the moment.

You might be over it, but it is objectively better than anything vanilla BG1 has to offer. That's fact.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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I'd say they have comparable design. BG1 has Durlag's which is better than Od Nua, PoE has Skaen Cultist Temple which is better than p. much anything in BG1, really. PoE has Raedric's Hold while BG has the Ice Island.

Eh, what is actually so good about Skaen Cultist Temple? It's copypasted same groups of enemies over the whole map culminating with a boss fight that is also the same group with slightly better gear. You are talking about the one in that BB location, right?

You're discussing encounter design, not the design of the dungeon. Besides the fights with Avarice and co., Durlag's has next to no interesting encounters either. I liked the cipher encounter and two of the Skaen groups are larger than the rest and will give you trouble on level 6 and below. As far as sameyness goes, Skaen dungeon is comparable to Cloakwood Mines. banditsbanditsbanditsbanditsbanditsbanditsbanditsbanditsbandits
 

Morkar Left

Guest
I completely agree with your observations. I had exactly the same thoughts but haven't finished the game, yet.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
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You might be over it, but it is objectively better than anything vanilla BG1 has to offer. That's fact.

Other than being fun to play for the whole game, I guess.

What a useless comment, lol. I think scratching my balls with a hot poker is more fun, so I guess you're gonna accept that as fact?

PoE's combat has a lot going for it, vanilla BG1 doesn't really have that much. It makes no difference what you and I find "fun", PoE's combat has much, much more complexity and tight design.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Do elaborate.

I already did:

"The problem with your line of thinking, VD, is that it is so obviously based on a "what is an RPG"-retardo discussion that ends in "What I like about RPGs is what RPGs are all about." Meanwhile, what the fuck does Wizardry 8 or Knights of the Chalice have that you want? Nothing. Might mean they're not RPGs for you, but to call them worse RPGs because they don't allow you to pick a multitude of dialogue options is fucking stupid, bro."
I don't call them worse RPGs and I wouldn't compare PoE to KotC because they have different aims and scope. I love pure dungeon crawlers (voted for Legends of Grimrock 2 as my game of 2014) but that's not what we're discussing here.

BG/BG2 weren't pure dungeon crawlers. They had story, lore, talkative companions, role-playing, non-combat quests, etc. Just like PoE. If you want to say that BG2 did items and location variety better, I won't argue. If you say that BG2 did lore and role-playing better, we'll have some words.

Thus, yes, for me PoE is a better game because I value role-playing more than itemization and variety.
 

Shadenuat

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So you're saying that expansion packs focused on a single dungeon did dungeons better than a full game that had to deliver everything? You don't say.
And didn't we pay for a special single dungeon from our own pockets for a package deal? And why Obsidian couldn't focus themselves on quality instead of quantity and skip with a few packs of lions and such to make more than one "stick your blazing godlike head into a pillar to remove symbols" encounter?

You're discussing encounter design, not the design of the dungeon.
Well it does bother people when, even if there is a secret wall, behind it lies crappy itemisation and encounter design. And then when we start discussing, say, architecture of the dungeon we will eventually stumble upon lore and atmosphere. You can't completely and fairly break down dungeon design into dots and lines.
 
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