My collected criticism on Pillars of Eternity (very minor spoilers)

[Vault Dweller]

Of course it is! You should throw a hissy fit that it is not a carbon copy of the IE games. Start every sentence with "but in the IE games".

Funny thing is, I only see the apologists always bring out 'BUT IN THE IE GAMES' when something is criticised here.

Considering that this whole episode started when I said it's better than BG...

People have legitimate arguments, and whether you like it or not, IE got more decisions right than wrong.

Highly debatable. See the discussion from 2003 I linked to.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Considering that this whole episode started when I said it's better than BG...

Aka 'it's better than a shit game - 10/10'

'What do you mean the writing is bad? IT WAS BAD IN BALDUR'S GATE TOO'

'Tired of endless kobolds xaurips? WELL THEY WERE TIRESOME IN BALDUR'S GATE TOO YOU HATER'

'You say the game has bioware dialogues? BALDUR'S GATE WAS LITERALLY MADE BY BIOWARE!'

'The crafting is lacklustre? BALDUR'S GATE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE CRAFTING OMG!'

'You find the setting generic? PFFF FORGOTTEN REALMS WAS GENERIC AS FUK TOO, ASSHOLE'

 

[Sensuki]

Combat is worse, encounters are worse, itemization is worse, exploration is worse. That's all that really matters to me.

To be honest though, I'm most disappointed with the writing, of all things. Comes off as trying really hard to be good, but it just isn't. Couldn't care less about most things going in the game.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Considering that this whole episode started when I said it's better than BG...

Aka 'it's better than a shit game - 10/10'

'What do you mean the writing is bad? IT WAS BAD IN BALDUR'S GATE TOO'

'Tired of endless kobolds xaurips? WELL THEY WERE TIRESOME IN BALDUR'S GATE TOO YOU HATER'

'You say the game has bioware dialogues? BALDUR'S GATE WAS LITERALLY MADE BY BIOWARE!'

'The crafting is lacklustre? BALDUR'S GATE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE CRAFTING OMG!'

'You find the setting generic? PFFF FORGOTTEN REALMS WAS GENERIC AS FUK TOO, ASSHOLE'

I have no intentions of comparing it to BG at every step (doing it on a forum in a 'BG vs PoE, which is better and why?' is one thing, in a review - another). I don't think it's a 10/10 game. There are plenty of things I don't like.

I mentioned BG in my snippet to indicate that it's not Fallout or Torment.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I have it good. I've 100% expected the game to suck giant donkey balls. That's why I'm not disappointed and as it turns out it sucks way less than anticipated. 7/10
You could immediately improve it by a large margin by making it DnD 3.5. Would solve character system, itemization, encounter design (just look up the DMG if you can't design decent encounters yourself, worked for Pierre Begue) Cipher is a good new class though.

 

[Athelas]

I have it good. I've 100% expected the game to suck giant donkey balls. That's why I'm not disappointed and as it turns out it sucks way less than anticipated. 7/10
You could immediately improve it by a large margin by making it DnD 3.5. Would solve character system, itemization, encounter design

Yeah, NWN2 is really known for its stellar encounter design and itemization.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

I have it good. I've 100% expected the game to suck giant donkey balls. That's why I'm not disappointed and as it turns out it sucks way less than anticipated. 7/10
You could immediately improve it by a large margin by making it DnD 3.5. Would solve character system, itemization, encounter design

Yeah, NWN2 is really known for its stellar encounter design and itemization.

Itemization is certainly miles above that one here and for encounter design I can refer you to KotC.

 

[Darth Roxor]

TERRIBLE ENCOUNTERS AND ITEMIZATION? LOL HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED BALDUR'S GATE NWN2?

 

[Athelas]

TERRIBLE ENCOUNTERS AND ITEMIZATION? LOL HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED BALDUR'S GATE NWN2?

Are you really that unbelievably stupid? My point was that the rule set isn't the determining factor for quality of encounter design. I wasn't defending the encounter design and itemization in PoE, I was condemning it. Try and read the posts you're replying to for a second before making an idiot of yourself.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Ok, can someone explain to me the reasoning behind this mechanic? This is the character reputation, not personality - so I can be known to be a cruel deceptive aggressive bastard and a benevolent honest diplomat at the same time? Not only does it hurt replayability as OP has already stated, what kind of sense does this thing even make? Why the fuck wasn't it a scale from deceptive to honest, from cruel to benevolent instead of this mess?

Putting these things on a single scale is garbage, as has been proven in the past.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_reputations#Reputation something that works.

How is the current mess improvement over a scale of opposites? Look, if you have a reputation of someone who lies just as much as telling the truth, you do not in fact have an honest reputation. Nobody is going say, well this man is honest, I can trust he is telling the truth when he says god told him to hide our sacred text. Why the fuck would they?! This system only ends up hurting the game by allowing you access to almost every dialogue option. I honestly thought that this was a bug or an oversight the first time I noticed it.

Basically, the idea to let you define and maintain your reputation and then check it in dialogues is definitely a good one.

Certainly, the idea is good and I like it. But the current implementation is just not very good.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

My point was that the rule set isn't the determining factor for quality of encounter design.

And my point was that when using DnD 3.5 you can look up the dungeon masters guide to set up good encounters (as evidenced by KotC) if you're unable to produce good encounter design yourself (as evidenced by PoE). Take your own advice regarding reading posts.

 

[Infinitron]

The Pronouncement of Two Skies was when the Codex race fractured into the gith-indie and the kick-zerai.

After the People destroyed the popamole empire, Sensuki, a warrior-queen and leader of the rebellion, declared that the People would not rest until they had discovered and destroyed all remaining Decline in the multiverse; then, the People would be free to conquer all of the planes of existence and bring war to all other races. Many of the People’s hearts shared this goal. Vault Dweller argued that the People already knew freedom and should begin to mend the damage done to their race. He too expressed a goal that was in the hearts of many of the People. Still, Sensuki insisted that hers was the only path and that they would be “under the same sky” in the matter.

Vault Dweller then told Sensuki that there “cannot be two skies.” This became known as the Pronouncement of Two Skies, a declaration of war that splintered the People into the races of gith-indie and kick-zerai. Battle was waged in the General RPG Discussion board, and the gith-indie retreated to the Underrail thread while the kick-zerai withdrew to the chaos of the Pillars of Eternity subforum. The two races have remained enemies ever since.

 

[Darth Roxor]

TERRIBLE ENCOUNTERS AND ITEMIZATION? LOL HAVE YOU EVER PLAYED BALDUR'S GATE NWN2?

Are you really that unbelievably stupid? My point was that the rule set isn't the determining factor for quality of encounter design. I wasn't defending the encounter design and itemization in PoE, I was condemning it. Try and read the posts you're replying to for a second before making an idiot of yourself.

Redding is teh hard? BALDUR'S GATE NEVER EVEN FORCED YOU TO READ!

 

[Athelas]

My point was that the rule set isn't the determining factor for quality of encounter design.

And my point was that when using DnD 3.5 you can look up the dungeon masters guide to set up good encounters (as evidenced by KotC) if you're unable to produce good encounter design yourself (as evidenced by PoE). Take your own advice regarding reading posts.

Well, my post wasn't actually in response to you. But what makes you think they would do that? It's not as if PoE took much inspiration from the most challenging fights in BG2.

 

[Ulminati]

so I can be known to be a cruel deceptive aggressive bastard and a benevolent honest diplomat at the same time?

Sounds like a description of many real life politicians

No matter what: lenient review incoming.

I don't think it'll be any more lenient than this

Because making a poll on day1 when everyone is hyped and half the voters haven't finished downloading will give you accurate results. :3

Worse than BG2 does not sound like 9/10.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

In general though, if you lied to 9 men but were always honest with one guy, this guy would say that you're the most honest person you've ever met and would probably think that those 9 guys are making shit up.

Except that the reputation check wouldn't occur for the one guy you were honest to, but for npc's you haven't interacted with yet. To them you have a reputation of someone who tells 10 lies for every truth, yet inexplicably they find you more trustworthy than someone who has no reputation at all.

Unless what you've said before that is true and Honesty checks only occur in tandem with Deceptiveness checks, but in that case you might as well just have a Deceptive-Honest slider to begin with.

 

[Infinitron]

Hey, the average score is 8.1, almost a full point less than the game's Metacritic score. Codex edginess reputation: preserved.

 

[Ulminati]

Does a score less than 8.5 mean Obsidian won't pay the codex their contractual bonus?

 

[Kz3r0]

so I can be known to be a cruel deceptive aggressive bastard and a benevolent honest diplomat at the same time?

Sounds like a description of many real life politicians

No matter what: lenient review incoming.

I don't think it'll be any more lenient than this

Because making a poll on day1 when everyone is hyped and half the voters haven't finished downloading will give you accurate results. :3

Worse than BG2 does not sound like 9/10.

Also the key word is Doritos, I will give it 10/10 Doritos too, for catering to the casual masses.
My Codex vote however would be more like this:

 

[SoupNazi]

I will ask Avellone how it works but if I have to guess (if I were the designer), I'd check for both. For example, to pass a certain check you'd need Honesty more than 3 and Deception less than 2.

In general though, if you lied to 9 men but were always honest with one guy, this guy would say that you're the most honest person you've ever met and would probably think that those 9 guys are making shit up.

Unfortunately, it's more like

Watcher has 2 honest, 3 deceptive
Conversation has 5 options:
(3 deceptive): "You know I lie a lot, I will lie to John for you."
(2 honest): "You know I am honest, and I will help you."
(2 aggressive): "Requirement not met."
(No check): "How can I convince you that I'll do it?"

So you get to choose whether in this case you want to use your reputation for being deceptive or for being honest. I had that case, when ambushed by Thaos' wizard lady at the beginning of Act 3, where I could convince her and her goons to surrender - and either option worked.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

That's just incredibly stupid, and I thought the disposition system was the game's big C&C-hook. tuluse defend the system to me, or don't if you have something better to do.

 

[One-and-a-half-Ivan]

I will ask Avellone how it works but if I have to guess (if I were the designer), I'd check for both. For example, to pass a certain check you'd need Honesty more than 3 and Deception less than 2.

In general though, if you lied to 9 men but were always honest with one guy, this guy would say that you're the most honest person you've ever met and would probably think that those 9 guys are making shit up.

Unfortunately, it's more like

Watcher has 2 honest, 3 deceptive
Conversation has 5 options:
(3 deceptive): "You know I lie a lot, I will lie to John for you."
(2 honest): "You know I am honest, and I will help you."
(2 aggressive): "Requirement not met."
(No check): "How can I convince you that I'll do it?"

So you get to choose whether in this case you want to use your reputation for being deceptive or for being honest. I had that case, when ambushed by Thaos' wizard lady at the beginning of Act 3, where I could convince her and her goons to surrender - and either option worked.

Can you provide an actual example? I've never seen a dialogue like this in the game.

 

[Infinitron]

That's just incredibly stupid, and I thought the disposition system was the game's big C&C-hook. tuluse defend the system to me, or don't if you have something better to do.

How about this: People know you have a reputation for being honest with some people, and being dishonest with other people. By talking in a certain way, you can convince them that you're currently operating in one mode or the other.

So, a person with a dual reputation might put on his shifty smirking face when saying a line that requires the "Desceptive" disposition, or look deep into the other person's eyes and speak with a soft voice when saying a line that requires the "Honest" disposition.

"Oh, I've heard of this guy, when he talks like that, that means he's being serious."

 

[Ellef]

Of course he can keep up this elaborate act with 3 intellect and resolve. The personality system is all choice and no consequence anyway.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

PoE beats first Baldur's Gate quite confidently...

In areas like character creation/customization/development, roleplaying, lore, much better written companions, more options in combat, reactiivity etc. sure but hand placed/special encounters are better for me in BG (including the end boss fight), so is itemization (one of PoE's biggest flaws for me), the wilderness areas were bigger and more developed (almost every one contained a unique encounter) and I preferred some BG settlements as well, especially the city itself which I found to be much more developed and atmospheric compared to largely underwhelming Defiance Bay and Twin Elms (I enjoyed Gilded Vale and Dyrford Village a lot more than those). I'd rather they stick to designing one big city in future installations but to really make it feel like one. Just my 2 cents anyway.