Myth: A New Age CYOA

[Erebus]

Can we take a minute to finally ask them why they attacked us ?

Neith has a completely different interpretation, she speaks of the goddess as a manipulator, a spinner of webs

 

[Fangshi]

Can we take a minute to finally ask them why they attacked us ?

Casgair simply points at Neith. He tells you that she arrived a few days ago with the entire Silver Order and warned him about an attack that was coming. She told him that a party of dwarves was making its way to their fortress (the offices) through the tunnels in the dwarven quarter. It was her horde of spiders that you fought off when you saved the dwarves. She mobilized her Order in case the spiders failed and the dwarves made it into the tunnels. When he found out he sent out a war party to crush the invaders (you) and you know what happened from there.

 

[Nevill]

They are certain that whatever power Miosguinn is in contact with can not be her as she would never attack her faithful followers...

How cute. They never did anything for their goddess, and yet the expect her not to favor Miosguinn (who offers her the entire surface world) over them.

But there may be truth in what they are saying. The book might be a conduit to the other Dark God who only uses Miosguinn's fanaticism as a way to make him subservient.

Still, that does not explain how the Blues got their hands on transformation magic. They have been amassing this army for a while, and the book had been found only recently.

A pity we didn't go with the necromancy book. We could have had an army of our own now.

Can we take a minute to finally ask them why they attacked us ?

Oh, and about the ring that we tossed out, too!

Apparently, it was from the Silvers, after all. Blues would probably not want us down here.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Zero Credibility, Erebus, Grimgravy, Kz3r0, Azira? What do you guys think about our chances in D?

Well honestly, I don't know. I agree that forcing his forces in another charge right now could be a good idea, but I'm not sure of the best way to accomplish that. The general description of the idea I have no problems with - offer battle, withdraw and set off traps. But the details of how this would be done are problematic, too many unknowns on a battlefield when it comes to a master of illusions. For instance, he could hide his troops for a quick strike at our forces acting as bait, before we could pull them out. The longer we let him plan the more tricks he can pull like that. Maybe a direct assault could work - convert a few stones into anti-magic grenades and sally out in force. Right now we can probably take him, but without the walls to hide our forces he may realise that as well and withdraw. Unless we force his minions to attack with a mass suggestion.

Evacuating also might be an option, with everything we can carry to avoid arguments. It looks like his control over his minions is problematic at best (and how far can he maintain his spells anyway?), and he can only be in one place at the same time. So if by the time we are ready to move out he is still outside (and we can probably check that with Nine), he can't be in the tunnels setting up an ambush. He could have send some of his forces there, but with their limited numbers and without him around they should be no problem. So we just leave, with a trail of traps behind us as we go. And put a few in the vault as well, he will have to check if we cleaned it out or not - he probably won't fall for that one personally, but a few of his minions will.

Or maybe we could fortify instead. Trap the tunnels leading to our positions to hell and back. Illusions don't set off traps and with his numbers right now we could cripple him.

What I do know is that I'm against C (1 or 2) as I just don't see it working. There is just no reason he would put himself at the risk of coming openly to negotiations. So, I'm putting my vote as:

Bv (full evacuation, head through the tunnel we came here from unless the locals have a better idea) > A (fortify for now and set up traps in the tunnels to further reduce his numbers > D (hopefully we will have a way to detect hidden troops or discerner if the attackers are all illusions before we spring our trap - maybe set up some traps in the tunnels leading to our men? He would expect as much and doing so would make this look less like an obvious trap it is).

B5 > A > D

edit: make that E (make anti illusion grenades, disguise our men and CHARGE!) > Bv > A > D

 

[Fangshi]

Oh, and about the ring that we tossed out, too!

Well if you really want to know...

You manage to catch Neith alone and decide to take a gamble and ask her about the ring. She tries to stare you down but when it becomes clear that you will not let the subject go she cracks and sighs... "Well I suppose I may as well tell you. I sent it to you. It was my hope that the dwarves could reduce the Reds enough to allow the Silver Order to become truly dominant. We have never had the numbers to fight the Reds but if they needed our magical abilities to survive, over time we could take full control. It was going so well too and then the Blues attacked..." She hangs her head and asks you not to tell Casgair. She says it would just drive a wedge between your forces at this critical moment.

 

[Nevill]

For instance, he could hide his troops for a quick strike at our forces acting as bait, before we could pull them out.

Why? He does not expect us to come out. He knows that the Reds, the Silvers and the Dwarwes are in no condition to fight them on open grounds - that is why he is laying siege to us. He does not know Derryth with her group - who accounts for 50% of our firepower - is here. When the gates open, the plan will commence in a matter of minutes. It is impossible for him to execute some clever maneuver if he did not prepare for that eventuality beforehand, and there is no reason for him to expect that.

Unless we force his minions to attack with a mass suggestion.

There will be this, as well.

Or maybe we could fortify instead. Trap the tunnels leading to our positions to hell and back. Illusions don't set off traps and with his numbers right now we could cripple him.

But if you fortify and just wait, then what? Why would you not utilise your numbers and wait for him to make the next move instead? He can just make more of his minions as time passes by, in fact, that is what he will be doing, since he needs the army to take on those creatures in the central city. The more you wait, the more powerful he becomes.

We can utilize the surprize factor here, but in a few days it won't matter anymore. We have to act.

D (hopefully we will have a way to detect hidden troops or discerner if the attackers are all illusions before we spring our trap - maybe set up some traps in the tunnels leading to our men? He would expect as much and doing so would make this look less like an obvious trap it is).

Why would we need to discern between illusionary and real foes? Once the gates close, Miosguinn would not be able to maintain his illusions. And the real creatures would be fooled, too - if suddenly 80 illusory foes charge us, what would make the real ones stay back? They are jealous and bloodthirsty. We catch them all inside, then we close the gates and disrupt Miosguinn's line of sight, then we dispatch them.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Why? He does not expect us to come out. He knows that the Reds, the Silvers and the Dwarwes are in no condition to fight them on open grounds - that is why he is laying siege to us. He does not know Derryth with her group - who accounts for 50% of our firepower - is here. When the gates open, the plan will commence in a matter of minutes. It is impossible for him to execute some clever maneuver if he did not prepare for that eventuality beforehand, and there is no reason for him to expect that.

He had no reason to suspect we would be able to take out the command group before, yet he prepared for this. Now he knows he is much more vulnerable, knows we have explosives experts and explosives. Once he sees the doors opening he is going to see a trap right away and will not order an attack after what happened to the rest of his army. The only hope we might have of catching anyone like that is our suggestion spell. Instead he will wait and when nothing happens he will send out some hidden scouts to find out what we are up to.

But if you fortify and just wait, then what? Why would you not utilise your numbers and wait for him to make the next move instead? He can just make more of his minions as time passes by, in fact, that is what he will be doing, since he needs the army to take on those creatures in the central city. The more you wait, the more powerful he becomes.

We can utilize the surprize factor here, but in a few days it won't matter anymore. We have to act.

Can he create more troops easily? Are they merely transformed cultists or can these things reproduce somehow? If former then he is stuck with what he has, if latter it will still take some serious time for the little spiders to grow up. In any case, if you wish to utilise the surprise advantage, go for the throat while he is still on reeling from the hit. Prepare a couple of anti-magic grenades, disguise our men in cultist cloaks so that he doesn’t realise we are there until too late and sally out. If he tries to retreat, use the suggestion spell to force a fight. Then throw the grenades and take them out. The greatest advantage he has are his smarts and his tricks. Deny him that and he falls just as easily as anyone.

In fact, I'm making that my preferred vote. Don't try to trick an illusionist - dispel his illusions and run him down. Let's call that E - CHARGE!

 

[Smashing Axe]

I don't want to waste the anti-magic stones on a fight like this. They're more useful retaining for future mage battles, since it has been stated that shielding magic is practically non-existent, it's pretty much our only means of surviving a mage duel.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Well sure, (mis)using a very useful magical item like that sounds almost criminal. Hell, when I'm playing a crpg I rarely even use items with limited charges. But we have to ask ourselves, what is more important - the magical items or a quick victory here? Personally, I think we can always find more items, that's what are here for after all.

Anyway, we do have four of them (not counting the one we could be taking back from Miosguinn), right? So we can use two or even three and still have a little personal edge when it comes to magic duels (and that is pretty much the only time we could expect to use one, it's just too inconvenient to carry these things in our mouth all the time).

 

[Nevill]

He had no reason to suspect we would be able to take out the command group before, yet he prepared for this.

Neith. One-shot-kill spells.

Once he sees the doors opening he is going to see a trap right away and will not order an attack after what happened to the rest of his army.

That depends, really. If the setup is believable enough, he might decide to just wait and see before taking action. And that is exactly what we need of him. As I said, my plan does not hinge on him ordering the attack. This is a trap designed for his minions, not for Miosguinn.

Can he create more troops easily?

Easily or not, he can.

If need be he can leave a force to contain you while he creates more soldiers, he could then come back with overwhelming numbers and wipe you out...

And that is a fairly quick process:

In a few short weeks he would even have the numbers to challenge that abomination in the center of the city

In any case, if you wish to utilise the surprise advantage, go for the throat while he is still on reeling from the hit. Prepare a couple of anti-magic grenades, disguise our men in cultist cloaks so that he doesn’t realise we are there until too late and sally out.

Well, you are free to suggest that, but that is neither A nor D.
The advantage we have is that he thinks he got us now. If we show in greater numbers, he will just retreat. And then he will build the numbers until they are strong enough to challenge us.

As for suggestion spell... it is possible, but it goes against the nature of these creatures that want to kill and feed.

If we try to manipulate these creatures despite Miosguinn's commands in D/E, would the spell not have a greater chance of success if we order them to do what they want to do?

Besides, charging at the driders that can climb walls and ambush you... I'd rather not.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Look, he isn't going to fall for that trap, no way, no how. He knows we have explosives, he'll know what than means. Why else would we open the bloody doors? The only thing he might send to attack are just illusions to see what we are going to do. Or move to the tunnels to scout our positions through there with hidden troops.

No, the only way that might work is if we pull in his troops against his orders because of their animal bloodlust. But if that is doable at distance when all they see is an open doors and our men inside, why wouldn't it be when they see our men charging at them screaming LEEROY JENKIS!

Sounds risky? Yes, but it denies him his magic, his tricks. Without that he is fucked. So we close in, drop the grenades, his illusion army goes down, we fire the rest of our ammunition at them (including our mortar rounds), take out the rest in melee and call it a day.

 

[Nevill]

Look, he isn't going to fall for that trap, no way, no how.

I have a different opinion on the matter. But in the end, we don't need him to.

He would not fall for it if we just opened the doors and stayed still, but that's why we try and put some act - and not only for him, but for his minions as well.

Why else would we open the bloody doors?

Because we don't have supplies to last for a siege, that's why! Or so he thinks. If we face the prospect of eating each other, we'd rather die. It would be normal to assume that we are just desperate.

The only thing he might send to attack are just illusions to see what we are going to do.

And his minions will absolutely not follow when a wave of their rivals goes for the fresh food that flees at their sight. They will go for the kill as well, regardless of his orders. Come on, with a mindset like this:

Instantly it thought of betrayal. Had its companions locked it outside? Unwilling to share the warm, fresh meat that awaited inside? Rage bubbled to the surface of the creature's mind, it would find a way in! It would eat!

do you think anything else would happen?

Or move to the tunnels to scout our positions through there with hidden troops.

That would be rather difficult if his troops charge at us.

No, the only way that might work is if we pull in his troops against his orders because of their animal bloodlust. But if that is doable at distance when all they see is an open doors and our men inside

Not only that, they will see our wounded and children running for their lives and dropping weapons. That's the act we intend to put.

That is a much more desireable target than the one that comes at you screaming 'LEEROY JENKINS' at the top of his lungs.

Besides, closing the gates cuts them off from Miosguinn's support spells. It is plain easier to get rid of them that way.

Sounds risky? Yes, but it denies him his magic, his tricks. Without that he is fucked. So we close in, drop the grenades, his illusion army goes down, we fire the rest of our ammunition at them (including our mortar rounds), take out the rest in melee and call it a day.

Well, there is the problem. Your group is strong enough to scare them off. And if you are going to use magic-suppressing grenades, don't count on your mind spells to make them stay and fight.

Miosguinn will just retreat and take his minions with him.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Why else would we open the doors unless we are inviting him in? How is opening the doors in front of his nose going to help us with our supply problem? Come on, he's not stupid. It's an obvious trap.

Oh, and even if we manage to pull in his troops with magic, there's an easy way of him putting a stop to that. Once he realises he can't control his men, he'll just cast a simple illusion - the doors are closed, there is no doors. Even if we put someone out there playing bait, they will not chase them through what looks like a solid wall. Simply put, he can control his troops through illusions and we have no easy way of countering that. And you can bet that a master of illusions would know this trick and more. Like sending hidden climbers through the open gates and on the ceiling of the courtyard. And when he has enough of them in place, he will spring his own trap on our bait.

As for using the grenades in the charge of the light brigade plan (also know as E), yeah, that's one problem. But once we are in position to drop them we will be in spitting distance of the enemy, so hopefully we can take advantage of the element of surprise and prevent their retreat.

 

[Nevill]

Why else would we open the doors unless we are inviting him in? How is opening the doors in front of his nose going to help us with our supply problem?

It is in the description. We allegedly intend to go on a suicide charge (NOT to invite them in) - because we don't have anything else left to do (that is how is helps us with the supply problem - we either win or we die), when our ranks suddenly break. While it is indeed a trap, it is not an obvious one.

Oh, and even if we manage to pull in his troops with magic, there's an easy way of him putting a stop to that. Once he realises he can't control his men, he'll just cast a simple illusion - the doors are closed, there is no doors.

Then that is where the dispel grenade will go. There would be no need to compel his minions to attack if their bloodlust takes over, so we will make do without suggestions.

 

[Smashing Axe]

The problem I have with D is that even if we can lure the minions into a trap, they don't really matter. Miosguinn matters, he's the ringleader, he's the one capable of creating more minions and he is the one who has tapped a seemingly endless magic source. The minions are utterly irrelevant beyond the threat they pose to our fighters, and if the minions go, Miosguinn retreats and rebuilds. And with an endless powersource, I suspect rebuilding his army won't be too difficult, what with the number of corpses about and the abomination cultists being available for "recruitment".

 

[Nevill]

The minions are utterly irrelevant beyond the threat they pose to our fighters, and if the minions go, Miosguinn retreats and rebuilds.

Then we track him down and kill him. It is trivial when he does not have bodyguards, and we have pathfinders with us.

If he uses magic to conceal his tracks, Nine will pick up his scent. If he doesn't, Ari and Bari will.

And without his minions, he is powerless to stop us from returning to the surface and warning the king.

As for using the grenades in the charge of the light brigade plan (also know as E), yeah, that's one problem. But once we are in position to drop them we will be in spitting distance of the enemy, so hopefully we can take advantage of the element of surprise and prevent their retreat.

They are faster than you, though. You won't catch them if they don't want to be caught.

And you can bet that a master of illusions would know this trick and more. Like sending hidden climbers through the open gates and on the ceiling of the courtyard. And when he has enough of them in place, he will spring his own trap on our bait.

He does not have enough troops to confront the group of our size, but he does not know it yet.
Any trap he intend to spring will be directed at the few remnants of the Reds and the Silvers, while we have the whole group waiting in abmush. It will fail miserably.

 

[Zero Credibility]

So we fake a suicide charge? Ok, but there need to be some contingency plans in place. What happens if he doesn't fall for it? If he starts pulling back away to lure us in, encircle and destroy? If he casts an illusion that will make it hard for our bait to return to safety? If he has hidden troops outside the walls waiting? There is nothing in D about preparing the grenades and they are our only chance at taking down his illusions.

 

[Smashing Axe]

We can't track him down and kill him, he's an illusionist with a vast magic supply and very familiar with the current terrain with no dependents. Furthermore he is used to stealth and reconnaissance, having been a lone operator making trips to the surface. The best time to strike him down is now while he's still confident and in the open (relatively). We've a wagon and dwarves with stubby short legs. Pursuit will be difficult to impossible. He has a lot of places to slink away to, and we've many other concerns to be worried about. Following him with the wagon is a bad idea, as is leaving it with these cultists.

Nine, being a disembodied head, who has lived several lifetimes as a mage, while capable of piercing Mios' illusionary veil, would likely be very bad at identifying any tracks Mios leaves, and scouting/hunting him down will require splinters from the main-group if it's to be done in any reasonable timeframe, such that she won't be able to cover everywhere.

We don't know how fast Mios can reproduce his minions, yet I suspect it will be much faster now with his powersource.

 

[Nevill]

So we fake a suicide charge?

Yes, but we don't go far. Look, I've described the plan before. We arm the children and the wounded to appear that we are going all-in and making our last stand. We force some of the creatures to run at our group with a few suggestions, the children scream and run for the chapel, our ranks are broken, the Reds try to rein the people in - you get the picture. We don't get far from the building before all of this happens. We pull back to stop the panicked retreat, and we don't manage to close the gates behind us.

At this point I expect to have all of the minions charge at us, because why the hell not? It's a free meal.

If - somehow - Miosguinn manages to stop the horde, which I don't think he can, BTW, we just close the gates and think about something else.

We will definitely not get lured in attempting the actual suicidal charge.

There is nothing in D about preparing the grenades and they are our only chance at taking down his illusions.

The grenades can only be prepared if we are sieged. That is A, D and E (if it does not take place immediately).
But only if we want to make them. I guess it can be put to a vote.

We can't track him down and kill him, he's an illusionist with a vast magic supply and very familiar with the current terrain with no dependents.

So how would he hide from the pathfinders? Illusions don't work if you are not there to maintain them. And if he tries to hide with magic, Nine should feel him manipulating the energies. One dispel grenade thrown at where this manipulation manifests itself the strongest, and he is done for.

Look, you are not tricking him with C2. His goodwill extends as far as his warning to us. If we didn't heed it, too bad for us. He will not believe that a bunch of do-gooders like Gareth and/or Tyrvard who are war vets will betray the king they fought for, and he will never belive Derryth will be okay with putting them to death. There is no reasonable bluff that would work. So if we ever attempt Miosguinn diplomacy, we will be the ones walking into a trap, not him.

 

[Smashing Axe]

As for alternatives to using the anti-magic grenades or trying to lure the enemy into an obvious trap, how about this...

C2

Thais does her thing, pretending to negotiate. Mios, having a remnant of sympathy towards our group, will engage in discussion, although very likely he won't agree to let us go, I do think he will still talk to us, if only to express his regrets that things went the way they did. Mios will probably use an illusionary duplicate to conceal his presence being wary about the mortar. While this is going on we have Brigit sneak/climb to a vantage point with a good view of the battlefield, carrying Nine with her. Nine with her true sight ability, marks Mios' location. Brigit marks his location to us, which we observe through our spyglass/slow illusion-breaking senses. We give the dwarves the coordinates for another mortar bombardment, while Brigit shoots him full of arrows with a few of the anti-magic stones in her mouth, just in case.

On that mark, the warriors/dwarves charge forward supported by the remaining mages, to offer Brigit and Thais a retreat and keep the minions' focused elsewhere from them.

We of course keep Thais in an easy to retreat position, this wouldn't be a face to face negotiation.

This is reliant on the terrain. Fangshi, could you confirm if there are any nooks or crannies on the courtyard walls/cliffs that would be suitable?

 

[Absinthe]

My objection to this is that if we spend a little while longer we can arm our forces much better and recover our wounded. I think we need to be at full strength to have a proper fighting chance, considering right now we're out of ammo and saddled with loads of wounded. I also motion that Serpent starts casting Heal on our injured using some of our mages as batteries. And that Nine teaches us countermagics or detect thoughts type stuff to circumvent his illusions.

Any option trying to pull something clever right now seems really bad to me because even if we somehow create an opening, we don't have any strength to capitalize on it, but then the fighting has started and we're exposed.

A seems like the best option to me. Once we've recovered our strength, then we can start making clever plans.

 

[Zero Credibility]

I'm sorry Nevill, but I just think the trap plan has a lot of potential problems.

First of all, he isn't going to be fooled for a second. Why would we make a suicide charge if we have other tunnels to escape to? It's not as if this is going to be a rash decision made after our perceived victory, it will take some time to prepare the trap. And the siege has only just started, isn't it a bit too soon for hunger to strike? Second, there are no dispel grenades made in A or D. Making the grenades means sacrificing some of our magical items, so if you want it, add it to plan D.

The whole plan depends on him not being able to see through our relatively simple deception and find a way to counter it. And I fear that's underestimating him. If it was just his troops without him, sure, that would be easy. But with him in the picture... he can order them to back away until our bait simply can't make it to back to the safety in time or have hidden spiders in place to cut off their retreat. Putting them out there pretending to charge is putting them in grave danger. And if we lose them we are in deep shit, again weaker than them and this time with serious morale problems as well.

 

[Absinthe]

Also this is Miosguinn we're talking about. Odds are we'll be nuking an army of illusions or negotiating with an illusion. All these clever trap options seem like they will be mostly exposing us but not them.

 

[Nevill]

Thais does her thing, pretending to negotiate. Mios, having a remnant of sympathy towards our group, will engage in discussion, although very likely he won't agree to let us go, I do think he will still talk to us, if only to express his regrets that things went the way they did. Mios will probably use an illusionary duplicate to conceal his presence being wary about the mortar. While this is going on we have Brigit sneak/climb to a vantage point with a good view of the battlefield, carrying Nine with her. Nine with her true sight ability, marks Mios' location. Brigit marks his location, which we observe through our spyglass/slow illusion-breaking senses. We give the dwarves the coordinates for another mortar bombardment, while Brigit shoots him full of arrows with a few of the anti-magic stones in her mouth, just in case.

First thing first, Miosguinn will do negotiations from a position of power. You do not expect him to come there alone, do you? Besides, he knows about the stones, he knows he will have trouble harming you with spells, so he will bring his minions with him. Your warriors will not make it in time.

Next, he will not do it where the mortar fire can find him. Why risk it at all? Just go inside any other building where the dwarves don't have a line of sight.

I just don't see him agreeing to it out of goodwill. He knows there is not point in negotiations - we will never agree to his terms. He knows this beyond doubt. So it would be extremely stupid of him to leave even the smallest possibility of getting caught in a trap.

What would be smart of him?

It is rather high risk, but the reward may be worth it if it works...

Or he may just do the smart thing and have you all killed/transformed...

This.

Also this is Miosguinn we're talking about. Odds are we'll be nuking an army of illusions or negotiating with an illusion. All these clever trap options seem like they will be mostly exposing us but not them.

The plan is to nuke the real things. As long as they get nuked as well - and they will - I am alright with carpet bombing.

 

[Smashing Axe]

First thing first, Miosguinn will do negotiations from a position of power. You do not expect him to come there alone, do you? Besides, he knows about the stones, he knows he will have trouble harming you with spells, so he will bring his minions with him. Your warriors will not make it in time.

Na, it'd likely be a negotiation outside of the gates of the chapel. Typically a few attendants from each side would be there. Except you're right, Miosguinn is far too cautious, and too scared of the mortar to actually be there himself, most likely he will create an illusionary double to speak for him, and instead be somewhere concealed within the ranks of his "army", since most spells require line of sight. The stones aren't necessary, merely a precaution. Besides you can't use them while speaking. They'd be on Brigit anyway who is meant to be concealed, so I don't see why you mention them here.

If it still looks like Thais won't be able to retreat in time, we may be able to do something with the wagon-horse for a swift get-away. A make shift chariot with warrior guards, for instance.

Next, he will not do it where the mortar fire can find him. Why risk it at all? Just go inside any other building where the dwarves don't have a line of sight.

It depends on the terrain, I don't think there's a convenient building for him to take cover in nearby, not while maintaining line of sight with Thais anyway.

I just don't see him agreeing to it out of goodwill. He knows there is not point in negotiations - we will never agree to his terms. He knows this beyond doubt. So it would be extremely stupid of him to leave even the smallest possibility of getting caught in a trap.

What would be smart of him?

Emotions make fools of us all. He might know there's no point to negotiating with the Reds/Silvers... But us? Likely if he knows it is us, he will meet us (With precautions listed). Whether out of feelings of guilt at the inevitable, or hope of reaching acceptable terms. He will go through a similar thought pattern: Maybe they will convert? They did after all take a strange head into their possession and started to let it teach them when they had no reason to trust it. Maybe they will be convinced at the power of my goddess after what they have witnessed and look to me for a master/apprentice relationship.

In mind he is still a teacher by nature. Against his better judgment, and given what we know now about his intentions, he STILL instructed us in combat magic.