New AP Gameplay Footage

[dragonfk]

I'm in a mood for arguing

When arent you? :twisted:

 

[Raapys]

This really does look rather poor, in all ways.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

All of the Codex is gay for Avellone. Fact.

Wrong.

Sawyer>Avellone

This is a fact. R00fles!

As for the reactions, I don't like the idea of a lockpicking minigame a la Oblivion, and I think it is indicative of the fact that Obsidian are probably making a lot of amateur mistakes when it comes to making a game like this. Fact is, lockpicking minigames are pretty much the antithesis of good action. Sure, they make you use your reflexes, but not in a good way. They quickly get boring/repetitive, and usually pause the entire world. A much better idea for a more pure action game is to go with the simplest lockpicking available, but make it in real time, like most stealth games do. That way, the challenge isn't in picking the lock, but in not revealing yourself to enemies, and setting up a safe time to pick. Much more exciting than a freeze-frame minigame, or stumbling around in an overwrought minigame while time passes.

Example time. What was more exciting, lockpicking in Thief/NOLF that was essentially automatic but in real time or lockpicking in Oblivion/Fallout 3 that was a minigame that paused the world?

Food for thought: Would the Oblivion lockpicking have been fun, or even possible, in real time? Would Bioshock's pipe minigame?

When it's a (supposed) action-RPG, it gets even stupider. If I invest points into lockpicking, I expect that to be all I need in order to pick a lock. Having a minigame on top of it, a la Fallout 3, is idiocy because you add nothing but tedium. Players like instant gratification. When your lockpick skill is high, and you can open a door because of it, there's the gratification right there and thus making the player happy and satisfied with their character. A minigame is just a barrier. I thought devs wanted simplicity, wanted things streamlined. Guess they just like to play "Me-Too!" and don't really have any clue of what they really want.

I'd love to believe that Obsidian, a studio that has yet to work on an action game, or even a game with their very own engine is capable of pulling this off. Thing is, they've got their work cut out for them. They have a terrible record when it comes to game performance and optimization, which is really going to hit them hard with an action game. If they don't get this together, it could really sink their game. Sure, a bunch of frames lost to slowdown in an RPG like NWN2 i only a minor graphical annoyance, but that is terrible in an action game. A lot can happen in that time, whether it be diving for cover, getting a crucial headshot, or throwing that miracle grenade. Slowdown in general is pretty annoying as well. Most action games worth their salt run above 30 FPS steadily, even with loads of stuff happening.

Balance is another problem. A bunch of ex-Black Isle and Troika staff, along with talented others made some of the most easily broken RPGs not stamped with a Japanese company logo or Bethesda's. What chance do they have in an action game, where even veteran developers make balance issues that can have severe repercussions?

I wish Obsidian the best of luck, and I'd love a game that takes the best parts of NOLF Deus Ex, and System Shock 2 and fuses them with Obsidian's writing talent (get some Bloodlines-level characterization mayhap)...but I can't realistically expect anything other than mediocrity with some good elements and a whole lot of amateur mistakes. They're inexperienced, underfunded, strapped for time, and with one of the worst publishers in the business.

 

[Longshanks]

@Longshanks:

Stats are weak in Deus Ex

I'm in a mood for arguing so I will ignore this ridiculously dumb part of your comment.

Why, because it's true?
The enemy AI was so bad in Deus Ex, that it didn't matter how bad my aim was, it was still easy to progress. Hacking, lockpicking, stealthing did not require high stats, especially as the first two had item replacements and the last had conveniently placed vents. Aside from this, stats had no affect other than how good your character is at certain things, they do not alter the game in any way. Given that the effect of this difference was weak, so were the stats.

You obviously missed a part where Obsidian dev said that they don't want player to suck on the first character levels so they made stats not important.

Pretty sure this comment was in regards to aiming. If so, it's a good choice for an actionRPG. You cannot have good gunplay if stats have a heavy affect on aiming, which is why most games that mix the two marginalise character skill. Deus Ex's clunky gunplay is an example of this (and even here, the effect was significant but not heavy, and could be compensated for by player skill). I think it better for an actionRPG to look for other ways to include character combat skills. There is certainly a possibility that stats will have too little effect in the game, but reduced effect on aiming is not conclusive proof of it.

Also mini-games are included instead of stats. Always. In every game that has minigames.
Why do you need stats if you have minigames?

Minigames come in various forms. Some have a large player skill component, others smaller. Again, this is an actionRPG; mixing of player and character skill is expected, it's only a possible problem if skewed too far to the player.

Also you sound like some ESF'er now. We are getting enough info about AP for the past year and most of it points towards a dumbed-down game - where have you been?

Right here man. As I said, I've not seen anything particularly terrible or particularly awesome from this game so far. I'm still on the fence. I've seen enough of it not to expect a heavy RPG, but not enough to dismiss it as complete shit.

Adding a time-sensitive component and removing the ability to continually re-cycle through the same dialogue are both good, in theory.

Uh. It was done back in 90s in adventure games (without timer but dialogues won't get recycled still). Except there you had to choose your responses. Here you can save yourself a trouble by choosing "auto-respond".

Never said it was new.

In what way does an auto-respond option break the dialogue system?
I agree that such an option can be described as "dumbing down", but it does not make for an automatically shitty dialogue system. It's also virtually necessary if responses are timed, as there is always a possibility you'll not respond in time. The two options are - some default response (or continue in currently selected stance), or your character says nothing - the former is the better option, as the latter would usually just result in the NPC repeating his dialogue, which undoes a stated aim of the devs to remove such a thing, and is actually even more dumbed down.


Edit:
I mostly agree with Ed's criticism of the lockpicking mini-game. My comments above are mostly about whether it necessarily negates character skill.

 

[Hobo Elf]

AP = proof of the decline of western RPGs. It's all about the guns and forced cover systems now, huh.

 

[denizsi]

AP = Anal Penetration. of Obsidian. It will flop.

bullet storm, time-stopping ... are pretty much to be expected from a game influenced by Bourne, Bond, Bauer

WTF? How come shitty console-kiddy features to be expected for such sources of inspiration? And expected "pretty much"? What kind of fucked up reasoning is that? It doesn't make any sense.

Also, for reference, Bond ran out of bullets a lot. So did Bauer. I've only seen the first Bourne and I only have hazy memories of it. Regardless, what kind of fucked up reasoning was that?

 

[sportforredneck]

It will hit everyone that circle at least partially covers. See f.e. ME (as AP copies it hard)
That's how a dumbing down for gamepad works - because it will never be precise as mouse and omg enemies will kill you.

Oh noes! Wait, who gives a shit?

 

[MetalCraze]

The enemy AI was so bad in Deus Ex, that it didn't matter how bad my aim was, it was still easy to progress. Hacking, lockpicking, stealthing did not require high stats, especially as the first two had item replacements and the last had conveniently placed vents.

Ah so you wasn't running around all the time shooting everyone on your way it seems - and actually all that stuff on the level was there to avoid shooting. It is called varied gameplay.
With AP somehow I doubt that you will have a trouble with lack of ammo (which was a problem in Deus Ex) and no matter how good/bad your aim is AI in this game will be even dumber than that in DX. Why? Because it is Obsidian - I've yet to see a single game from them with a decent AI and a decent combat.

Pretty sure this comment was in regards to aiming. If so, it's a good choice for an actionRPG. You cannot have good gunplay if stats have a heavy affect on aiming, which is why most games that mix the two marginalise character skill.

Why include stats anyway then? In the best case they will do nothing there. Just for the sake of calling your game with a popcorn buzzword "RPG"?

Deus Ex's clunky gunplay is an example of this

And you expected Deus Ex to be a shooter? Its like saying that combat in Thief sucks because it is hard to kill people.
As you pointed out there was stuff placed everywhere on DX levels. For a reason maybe?

As for AP's gunplay it looks extremely dull and boring - stats or not. One thing if the shooting part of AP was good - but look at f.e. Max Payne with its "action-movie powers" - AP simply sucks in comparison with it.

Minigames come in various forms. Some have a large player skill component, others smaller.

Really? Then why there are no minigames based on character skill? They are all about button-mashing your gamepad.

The two options are - some default response (or continue in currently selected stance), or your character says nothing - the former is the better option, as the latter would usually just result in the NPC repeating his dialogue, which undoes a stated aim of the devs to remove such a thing, and is actually even more dumbed down.

And don't you think that railroading is dumbing-down - which they do with dialogues?
Stances are bullshit - you won't know what your character will say and it is just another way to hide the exactly same response from the player a la ME which Obsidian so desperatly copies. Like omg teh awesum Avellone already did in KotOR2.

And now explain to me how AP is aRPG if it doesn't have RPG at all and you seem to complain that RPG only hurts aRPG.
Maybe AP is just another dumb console shooter with useless stats (as we already learned)?

How can you even compare (and even put on the same level) AP with its dumbed down "next-gen" superhuman "spells", auto-target, one-word dialogues, action-oriented gameplay to more complex and intelligent Deus Ex is beyond me.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

Skyway needs to get laid
(and so does the guy who wrote 5 paragraphs on lockpicking in videogames)

 

[Forest Dweller]

I can personally attest to Edward getting laid today.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Skyway needs to get laid
(and so does the guy who wrote 5 paragraphs on lockpicking in videogames)

Hell no, they both need to get more angry. I fucking adore Avellone but I still can see the reasoning behind Skyway's post. And never, ever, EVER has lockpicking minigame been "good dame design".

 

[SerratedBiz]

I can personally attest to Edward getting laid today.

Gentlemen don't kiss and tell.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Who said anything about kissing?

 

[Wyrmlord]

Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with Vaarna Aarne, Andyman Messiah, fastpunk, and Hummelgumpf?

Why do you guys live under this ridiculous delusion that Obsidian can do no wrong? Why do you have this absurd double standard that any dumbing down is okay when Obsidian does it?

Look at it for yourself. A lockpicking minigame. And you justify it by saying, "Preposterous, an action RPG that realizes it should do things like an action game." Are you out of your minds? I thought it was a bit wierd when you guys unanimously praise KotOR 2 and NWN2, but this?

I mean, everybody is entitled to their opinions, but when you say things like this, and then dismiss the opinions of people like skyway as mindless nerdraging, maybe you need to put things into perspective.

 

[Forest Dweller]

I will admit that skyway has some points in this thread.

 

[entertainer]

Doesn't skyway always have some points?

 

[M_I_C_K_E_Y_M_O_U_S_E]

Except Obsidian aren't really on the forefront of turning gamers into retards. I haven't seen any new lows with AP yet.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

(and so does the guy who wrote 5 paragraphs on lockpicking in videogames)

Dude...I'm technically staff on a niche RPG site. That's enough for me to gain my virginity back...however that works. Pimpology as a dump stat was a bad idea I guess...

Also, we're both posting on a web forum on Friday night so it's likely true for both of us.

I can personally attest to Edward getting laid today.

You feeling a little "saddle sore" too, cowboy?

 

[Seboss]

@Longshanks:

Stats are weak in Deus Ex

I'm in a mood for arguing so I will ignore this ridiculously dumb part of your comment.

Why, because it's true?
The enemy AI was so bad in Deus Ex, that it didn't matter how bad my aim was, it was still easy to progress. Hacking, lockpicking, stealthing did not require high stats, especially as the first two had item replacements and the last had conveniently placed vents. Aside from this, stats had no affect other than how good your character is at certain things, they do not alter the game in any way. Given that the effect of this difference was weak, so were the stats.

Sounds like Deus Ex 2 to me.

 

[Hobo Elf]

@Longshanks:

Stats are weak in Deus Ex

I'm in a mood for arguing so I will ignore this ridiculously dumb part of your comment.

Why, because it's true?
The enemy AI was so bad in Deus Ex, that it didn't matter how bad my aim was, it was still easy to progress. Hacking, lockpicking, stealthing did not require high stats, especially as the first two had item replacements and the last had conveniently placed vents. Aside from this, stats had no affect other than how good your character is at certain things, they do not alter the game in any way. Given that the effect of this difference was weak, so were the stats.

Sounds like Deus Ex 2 to me.

Busted

 

[Gobbo]

There's more on gametrailers.

 

[Longshanks]

AP = Anal Penetration. of Obsidian. It will flop.

Another sufferer of Skyway syndrome?

bullet storm, time-stopping ... are pretty much to be expected from a game influenced by Bourne, Bond, Bauer

WTF? How come shitty console-kiddy features to be expected for such sources of inspiration? And expected "pretty much"? What kind of fucked up reasoning is that? It doesn't make any sense.

Console kiddie?

I pretty much expect some over the top abilities in a game that cites these as influences. When playing a Bourne-type character I'd definitely expect to be able to slow/stop time, mimicking the character's super-fast reactions. Now, about bullet storm. I do agree that this one seems a little more silly. But, having an ability that allows you to not worry about reloading for a short time, is a decent analogue of the all out action, adrenaline-pumping sections of these various movies/tv shows. Think of it, not so much of not needing to reload, but being so caught up in the awesome action that you don't even notice it, or the director does not even bother showing it (a stretch maybe? :wink.

I've not fanatically followed AP's development, and the particular implementation of super-power combat abilities are unlikely to make or break the game for me, so my understanding of these may not be perfect, if not correct away.

Also, for reference, Bond ran out of bullets a lot. So did Bauer. I've only seen the first Bourne and I only have hazy memories of it.

You think Thorton will never run out of ammo?

Ah so you wasn't running around all the time shooting everyone on your way it seems

I meant that no matter how low my gun skill was it was still easy to progress, even if I were taking a guns blazing path.
Same goes for having low hacking or lockpicking skills, but still being able to pick and hack most anything in the game.

And you expected Deus Ex to be a shooter? Its like saying that combat in Thief sucks because it is hard to kill people.
As you pointed out there was stuff placed everywhere on DX levels. For a reason maybe?

Wait, so it's okay for Deus Ex, an FPS, to have poor gunplay, but not AP, an actionRPG?
Deus Ex is a shooter. Shooting all enemies in your way is a perfectly viable, and not overly difficult, way to play the game, and was clearly designed to be so. Surely if it were meant to be a stealth game those many weapons and those combat stats were superfluous?

AP is also supposed to have stealth and hacking alternatives. Does this mean it can also be forgiven poor gunplay?

Why include stats anyway then? In the best case they will do nothing there. Just for the sake of calling your game with a popcorn buzzword "RPG"?

Aiming is not the only thing that can be affected by stats. Damage (also not ideal), rate of fire, unlocking moves, etc... are possible alternatives. My preference is for combat actions to be entirely character skill based, but, I find that trying to mix the player and character skill works worse than having one or the other, particularly for aiming.

Really? Then why there are no minigames based on character skill? They are all about button-mashing your gamepad

The purpose of mini-games is to give the player some say in the success or failure of a character's actions. So yes, there will be a player skill component. But, as I said, the level of player skill will vary - ranging from completely broken character stats, to stats only slightly modified by player skill (eg. hacking in SS2).

I dislike mini-games too. But, the mixing of character and player skill is not a crime in a sub-genre (actionRPG), that is defined by that mixing. In this context its the tedious and repetitive nature of them that I find most objectionable, not the introduction of player skill.

 

[xuerebx]

Looks great, a game which I might actually finish till the end. So that's 3 games for 2009. Not bad at all.

 

[burrie]

I rather liked what I saw at the gametrailers video.

 

[Longshanks]

Your greatest weapon is ... choice!

Pros:
- graphics mostly look quite good
- liked the look of hand to hand combat, was nicely animated
- earning the incorruptible perk for not taking a bribe

Cons:
- voice acting, particularly Thorton's seems stiff
- not sure about the one-word descriptions for dialogue options. Though those in the video seemed self explanatory (eg. kill, arrest, bribe)
- some animations look a little weak
- only 4 babes to bag?

Again, nothing stands out as greatly positive or negative at this stage.