New Mass Effect interview: Cap'n Shepard = Jack Bauer

[Human Shield]

That doesn't matter, they are still RPGs and this site and others would cover them as such. No one would deny that they are still RPGs despite not having TB strategic combat or similar.

Yes, they are called action-RPGs.

Let's not get bogged down in made-up categories that few people can ever agree on. It's bad enough trying to pin down "what is a RPG" to start with. Strategic combat and turn-based combat are key factors for defining strategy games, not RPGs.

Where do you think RPGs came from? It doesn't have to be turn-based but actions have to be backed by player decisions through a system, as opposed to action gameplay.

They might be something you enjoy, but they don't disqualify it from being a RPG altogether. Gothic 3 is a good RPG (bugs aside), despite these elements you say dilute it. I think the whole "action-RPGs" and all the other various categories people make up on the spot are great for describing a game and giving you an idea of what to expect, but not for solid categorizations/genres or you end up with "First person action-RPG Codex" or even "FPS-RPG-Pre-Havoc-Physics-Real-Time-Dungeon-Crawl-Sneaker-Simulatorâ„¢ Codex". It's best just to stick to "RPG" to cover it all when appropriate.

Games can have RPG elements mixed with other genres.

That is the minimum unless you want a piss-poor half game (with no challenge, no exploration, and no moral questions).

Do you consider the original Deus Ex to be a piss-poor game with no challenge, no exploration and no moral questions then?

I'm saying if you just cut out the action elements from Deus to make a 'pure RPG' and replaced them with nothing there wouldn't be much challenge. Don't you think? Deus Ex didn't have the moral questions backed by system either.

I've played more simple and linear "kill the big Foozle" and dungeon crawl RPGs (from simple ASCII types to the bigger budget IWD types, old and newer).

Which provided a gamist creative agenda.

As the move to more player-based skills in Gothic 3 doesn't disqualify it from being a RPG to anyone, what was lost can't be considered vital to a game being one though.

Its called an action-RPG so I guess it is disqualified from being an RPG. Decision based mechanic being replaced with action is a vital point. It is replacing system (the RPG backbone) with action (a gameplay element from elsewhere).

It can't be exploration and large/free form game worlds either or GTA type games could be included with Gothic. If GTA had levelling and stats as you killed, would it be a RPG as much as other linear or action based RPGs?

GTA doesn't have much exploration. If it varied color and some character content backed by system, focused on the genre (in the literary sense), and opened up exploration (like the BG series does); it could be an action/RPG-lite.

What about the X-Com games? Again, very close to slipping into the RPG "categories". They have many elements that are considered to be RPG staples, but no one would consider it to be an RPG.

That is because they use system but don't match creative agenda (the other part of RPGs).

At what point does it stop being a RPG and become something else? Or vice-versa. Purely out of interest as a Devil's Adovacte.

When it replaces system or one of the three creative agendas backed by system with something else. Its a sliding scale just like games that require faster reaction and more focus are called "more action packed" as compared to simpler ones.

We call it RPG when it has system and creative agenda backed by system. If the creative agenda backed by system is poorly designed or incoherent people mite call it a weak RPG, but doesn't change category.

 

[Fez]

Try writing that post again in clear and proper English, rather than that confusing and broken form. For example,"Which provided gameist creative agenda" sounds like gibberish. There's no such word as "gameist". You've obviously got some ideas and I'd like to hear them properly and give them the consideration they deserve, but I can't do that if the delivery is so poor. I'm not saying it to insult, it is genuinely broken and messy writing that is making it difficult for your point to come across or translate properly. Right now it reads like something that has been through the Babelfish translator.

 

[Human Shield]

Try writing that post again in clear and proper English, rather than that confusing and broken form. For example,"Which provided gameist creative agenda" sounds like gibberish. There's no such word as "gameist". You've obviously got some ideas and I'd like to hear them properly and give them the consideration they deserve, but I can't do that if the delivery is so poor. I'm not saying it to insult, it is genuinely broken and messy writing that is making it difficult for your point to come across or translate properly. Right now it reads like something that has been through the Babelfish translator.

Fair enough. I was referring to Gamism.

The other two are Simulationism and Narrativism.

Its part of the big theory The article is a bit outdated, a lot of info is scattered around the forums.

Other specific examples would be appreciated.

 

[Claw]

I'd like to know what "three creative agendas" you're talking about.

 

[Fez]

Aha! I'll have a read through that link sometime, maybe it will explain the odd sentence structure and unexplained phrases (like the gameist one you mentioned). There were other oddities, such you saying things like "backed by system", rather than "backed by a/the system". Another example of that is "We call it RPG when it has system and creative agenda backed by system", that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You say "mite" instead of "might". It might seem like small things to you, but when you get it happening a lot it can make something that reads fine in your head sound very strange to someone else, I've had it happen to myself enough times (which is why I get someone else to proof read anything that is important for real life). As I said, it's not to be rude, only to express genuine confusion over what you meant. I'd rather be honest and say I didn't understand it than brush you off with a dismissal or nod along like a twit and pretend I understood.

From a quick scan, I see the term "creative agenda" in your post relies on that article for its meaning too. You should quote that in context if you're going to borrow from it as the phrase on its own is ambiguous and left to interpretation. Of course, expecting someone to search for and read through an article just to find the meaning of a buzz word that could be replaced with normal English is bit much when the article isn't the topic of conversation to start with. Made-up words and phrases like that are always a pitfall. It can end up just as bad as marketing. Stick to real English.

 

[Volourn]

"As the move to more player-based skills in Gothic 3 doesn't disqualify it from being a RPG to anyone"

Gothic 3 is an Action RPG. btw, Contrary to what some think, that's not me dissing Gothic 3. Gothic 3 is an Action RPG; because that's exactly what genre it is.

Deal with it, you fuckin' moron. :evil:

 

[Fez]

And? So we agree it is an RPG.

 

[Volourn]

No. You said it was a RPG. I say (and, it is) an Acxtion RPG just like JE, BL, and ME. Deal with it, SUCKA!

Big differences between RPG, Action, RPG, and Action games. I didnt' think one confuse the three.

 

[Fez]

Action-RPG is just a sub-genre of RPGs. It's all under one heading. There's no Action-RPG Codex.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

 

[Human Shield]

Action-RPG is just a sub-genre of RPGs. It's all under one heading. There's no Action-RPG Codex.

Would you also consider it a sub-genre of action games? It is a hybrid, it has elements of both.

 

[Volourn]

Human Shield 4 THA W! :D

 

[Claw]

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c247/jimbob11/masseffectartwork.jpg

I like it. :D

 

[Elhoim]

The sadness comes when an Action RPG is awarded the prize of "Best RPG of E32006".

So the best RPG showcased was an action one? Sad...

 

[Ladonna]

Is there anything else to give the award to these days? Enlighten me as to when the last 'RPG' on the PC was created, and tell me how said 'RPG' is and 'RPG'.

Use the three systems in your answer if you please :wink:

 

[Human Shield]

Is there anything else to give the award to these days? Enlighten me as to when the last 'RPG' on the PC was created, and tell me how said 'RPG' is and 'RPG'.

Use the three systems in your answer if you please :wink:

I'm not sure on dates but:

Final Fantasy series is all very weak Gamist. Gamist usually have a big optional monster that can seperate the winners from the losers.

Baldur's Gate series is Sim/Gamist with some Nar.

Icewind Dale would be Gamist.

Fallout was strong Sim with some Nar. The GURPs design is obvious, trying to design a reactive and realistic world first.

Arcanum was like Fallout but more incoherent, putting long fights that didn't match design.

ToEE was Gamist with some Sim (designing for alignment system with a few approaches and endings; they want to have characters play out "like they should").

Wizardry 8 was strong Gamist (less focus on how adventuring would play out and more on challenges). Maybe the last harcore Gamist RPG.

Darklands was strong Sim.

Planescape was Nar/Sim (probably the only RPG that tried to focus on Narrativist play but wasn't fully backed by system).

I'm not sure any big-name pure RPGs were released in 2006. Probably even the developers would admit to blending with action games.

MMORPGs are weird and are always mixed with action but would probably be weak Gamist with the earlier ones trying Simulationist also. The point is to overcome stuff and you can brag about it, but the problem is that it is based on time put in instead of smart thinking, making competition weak. Guild Wars mite have gotten closer but its so sterile that is becomes closer to strategy (the creative agenda to use character to face challenges is boxed into set balanced encounters with rival armies, with no long term victory condition).

VtM: Bloodlines.

This would have been an action RPG. On the RPG side it tried to be Sim with some minor Nar but the same design flaws from Arcanum are evident with filler that distracts from the focus.

Bloodlines is poor on Nar because (like the "Storyteller" system ) it expects low humanity to act their part correctly and even uses XP to buy back humanity. Narrativism is about getting the player to make moral choices, even something like Fallout's separating out Karma and Reputation from each town can free players to make moral choices without limits (this was probably a fluke).

Anyways, the last PC RPG released was NWN2. One could argue its quaklity; but it *is* a RPG.

Yeah like VD point it, it takes the worst exploration of Icewind Dale and the worse challenging combat from BG and tries to fit it together. NWN2 is a weak Gamist/Sim but it still was an RPG. It mite have also been a Sim that was just focused on showing off D&D 3.5, on how many rules it can play with.

 

[JarlFrank]

Is there anything else to give the award to these days? Enlighten me as to when the last 'RPG' on the PC was created, and tell me how said 'RPG' is and 'RPG'.

Use the three systems in your answer if you please :wink:

VtM: Bloodlines.

 

[Volourn]

"VtM: Bloodlines."

Action RPG.

Anyways, the last PC RPG released was NWN2. One could argue its quaklity; but it *is* a RPG.


P.S. WOW! Human Shield is impressive! He replied to my post before I even posted it! AMAZING!!!

P.S.S. And, JarlFrank's too.


:shock: :shock: :shock:

 

[DarkUnderlord]

http://www.jackbauerisgod.com/

 

[Fez]

Jack Bauer fought Cancer. Now it's safe to smoke.

Hurrah, smoke them if you've got them folks. That site makes a change from the usual Chuck Norris.

 

[KreideBein]

On a high school math test, Jack Bauer put down "Violence" as every one of the answers. He got an A+ on the test because Jack Bauer solves all his problems with Violence.

Before I realized that the site was about the show 24 (I don't keep up with TV), this one made me think that the site was satirizing ME.

 

[Admiral Rimjob POOBUM]

Jack Bauer fought Cancer. Now it's safe to smoke.

Hurrah, smoke them if you've got them folks. That site makes a change from the usual Chuck Norris.

Given that it just copypasta'd Chuck Norris jokes and replaced the names with "Jack Bauer", I don't see how.

 

[bylam]

I prefer Chuck Norris. I've never even heard of Jack Baur attempting a roundhouse kick.

 

[MacBone]

Given that it just copypasta'd Chuck Norris jokes and replaced the names with "Jack Bauer", I don't see how.

Eh, a lot of 'em, but then there's this:

In 96 hours, Jack Bauer has killed 93 people and saved the world 4 times. What the hell have you done with your life?

 

[kingcomrade]

Once, someone tried to tell Jack Bauer a "knock knock" joke. Jack Bauer found out who was there, who they worked for, and where the goddamned bomb was.

How many Jack Bauers does it take to change a light bulb? None. Jack Bauer isn't afraid of the dark.